What the Hell, Emperor?

09/28/2012 12:19 AMPosted by Veszyrr
I would hazard a guess that the original ritual (that's what I call it) was to make a balanced force of Pure Negative and Pure Positive to make the binding and the shielding spell work, but because the land already has a very powerful entity (all be it dead) the negative forces began to expand and grow over the many years


I don't doubt that this was the original intent. It was the Jade Serpent who suggested it in the first place, after all. However, I do question that the way he went at it was wrong. He didn't harmonize his own feelings - He took some of them and cast them away. He buried the munder the carpet. That, I think, lies the whole problem. He unknowingly empowered the enemy by denying an integral part of his mind.

There lies his mistake.

I would easily say that Emperor Shaohao was almost as powerful as Azshara but neither were Omni-percipient (could see/know everything) so he would not know the downsides of what he did long-term because for him there was no long-term compared to TOTAL DESTRUCTION from the Well of Eternity blowing up.

He made a very bold choice to save the whole of Pandaria by sacrificing himself to keep it safe. he could have never have known that it could have been destroyed by his very actions. He was desperate, and had to make a very tough choice.


Oh, I don't doubt his intent was good. He was trying to save his countrymen. But the way he went at it not only empowered his enemy, but also made it just a question of time before they reappeared. The Shado-pan have to keep constant vigilance. Pandaria has to keep itself wholly sealed off from the world. It's not a good state to be in. They live a golden age of prosperity, yes. The Gilneans were also safe and prosperous behind their Wall.
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90 Orc Warrior
10290
TLDR version.: I'm justifying my toon and faction taking a huge dump on Pandaria, and I'm fully embracing the Mighty Whitey trope.
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I think we can sum up sentient existance rather simply:

We are all born with emotions. When we let our emotions get the best of us, we get into all kinds of mischief. When we dominate our emotions, we become cold, calculating beings who don't give a fruitnoodle about anything. But when we learn how to master and temper our emotions, everything works out for the best. Maybe not what we want, but for the best
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90 Tauren Death Knight
11170

Oh, I don't doubt his intent was good. He was trying to save his countrymen. But the way he went at it not only empowered his enemy, but also made it just a question of time before they reappeared. The Shado-pan have to keep constant vigilance. Pandaria has to keep itself wholly sealed off from the world. It's not a good state to be in. They live a golden age of prosperity, yes. The Gilneans were also safe and prosperous behind their Wall.


The Gilneans had a bloody civil war before the Cataclysm, to say nothing of their Worgen problem. I would hardly call that "safe". They did enjoy an industrial revolution, however, so I'll grant you that they were prosperous.

The Pandaren, meanwhile, had 12000 years of peace with only local conflicts, swiftly smothered by the Monks and Shado-Pan. The Pandaren also don't seem to be too upset about their life of isolation, either. In fact, fear never even crossed their minds considering what the consequences of it are.

On a slightly different note, perhaps we are reading too much into the Burdens of Shaohao. Do the Burdens specifically mention that he purged his emotions rather than conquered them? I also don't buy that he "empowered" the Sha by confronting his own inner demons. He simply had to confront his emotions, and, due to being on Pandaria, that type of inner conflict had serious consequences through the Sha manifesting. I see no difference between the Burdens of Shaohao and the current conflict between the Alliance and the Horde.
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09/28/2012 10:43 AMPosted by Abal
On a slightly different note, perhaps we are reading too much into the Burdens of Shaohao. Do the Burdens specifically mention that he purged his emotions rather than conquered them? I also don't buy that he "empowered" the Sha by confronting his own inner demons. He simply had to confront his emotions, and, due to being on Pandaria, that type of inner conflict had serious consequences through the Sha manifesting. I see no difference between the Burdens of Shaohao and the current conflict between the Alliance and the Horde.


I had the same doubts at first, but on a closer look, after he takes off the Monkey King's mask, he knows exactly what to do and doesn't second guess himself, so I believe that, yes, he actually neutered his own emotions.

That being said, when he was trying to break Pandaria away, he did have a moment of weakness...
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27 Pandaren Monk
6635
So freaking WHAT? SO WHAT?

If everyone did everything in the wisest and most efficient way, none of this story or lore would exist. Cripes, who the hell approaches lore from such a bizarre context?

Congratulations! You got them! You totally exposed the errors and mistakes of these fictional characters!!!! You're so smart!
Edited by Shinzin on 9/28/2012 4:03 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Death Knight
11170

I had the same doubts at first, but on a closer look, after he takes off the Monkey King's mask, he knows exactly what to do and doesn't second guess himself, so I believe that, yes, he actually neutered his own emotions.

That being said, when he was trying to break Pandaria away, he did have a moment of weakness...


Confidence is not the same as having no doubts whatsoever. He very well could have still had doubts, but, because he had conquered them, he had the confidence to do what he felt was necessary. I'd say it is vague enough to be open for interpretation.
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It's noting that Chi-ji, the Red Crane, SPECIFICALLY says that the escaping Sha were inevitable consequences of Shaohao's actions. The Horde and Alliance may have exacerbated their release, but they were ultimately not the chief or only cause.

So, I think "What the Hell, Emporer" is probably a valid response to have by the spirits' own admittance.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
14765
In Kun-Lai summit, Anduin even says that having some of these "negative" emotions is a good thing.

We can't look at what Shaohao did as purely good or evil. He protected his land from the dangers of a shattered world for 10,000 years, but he also allowed the Sha take form.
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90 Tauren Death Knight
11170
It's noting that Chi-ji, the Red Crane, SPECIFICALLY says that the escaping Sha were inevitable consequences of Shaohao's actions. The Horde and Alliance may have exacerbated their release, but they were ultimately not the chief or only cause.

So, I think "What the Hell, Emporer" is probably a valid response to have by the spirits' own admittance.


Yes, I just got there, as well. The major Sha all seem to be the discarded emotions of the Emperor. In order to connect them to Y'Shaarj, I suppose it cursed Pandaria when it was destroyed and this is why the Sha specifically manifest there.

As for the Emperor's actions, he saved Pandaria from the Sundering and created a long lasting peace that was only shattered now due to our landing. Most of the Celestials seem to think that our arrival serves a purpose. Perhaps we are meant to discover a permanent solution to the Sha.
Edited by Abal on 9/28/2012 8:57 PM PDT
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09/28/2012 08:54 PMPosted by Abal
As for the Emperor's actions, he saved Pandaria from the Sundering and created a long lasting peace that was only shattered now due to our landing. Most of the Celestials seem to think that our arrival serves a purpose. Perhaps we are meant to discover a permanent solution to the Sha.


Which is the reason I say "What the Hell, Emperor", and say that yes, the Pandaren will actually benefit from the Alliance and Horde invading their carefully balanced, fragile crystal tower. Shaohao crated/empowered a problem. While it had good consequences, and was done in bona fide, ultimately, it was a bad thing and we need the other races to step in and provide a permanent solution.

If people want to call that Mightey Whitey, well...
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90 Tauren Druid
3770
I believe his intentions and actions were spot on. We know that the Old Gods' whispers make you go mad or doubt yourself. See how everyone before was corrupted by the Old Gods. They had one negative emotion nagging at the back of their mind, amplified and ultimately became corrupt. So, what the Jade serpent suggested the Emperor to do was the only available solution. If you purge yourself of anger, doubt and other negative emotions, how can you become corrupt? This essentially renders the whispers themselves powerless and makes you safe.

The only flaw with this idea is that not everyone can do it perfectly. That i believe is the reason for Sha's existence.
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
09/28/2012 09:32 PMPosted by Rufyn
Ultimately the other races are forced to band together to stop it because they're the people that unleashed it again.

Bingo.

The emperor's actions were an ounce of prevention.

The combined armies of the Alliance and Horde running roughshod over the continent and causing untold damages to life and land fighting the Sha and putting a stop to them at an even greater cost to the continent was a pound of cure.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7805
People!

What we have here is a major culture clash! Its easy to look down on the panderan's for being pacifistic and isolationists, while having a state police running around warning people not to get out of control. That said it hasn't done any damage beyond merely putting an industrial strength lid on a giant pot.

The Horde and Alliance have come however and are now forcing the Panderan to confront their issues, to deal with the sha. Maybe back in the day the Panderan just weren't ready to deal with the sha or what not.

This is a two way street. They'll hopefully help us gain control over our own issues (cough Garrosh and this whole big war). We will give them some back bone to face their problems rather then put the industrial strength lid on them.
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09/29/2012 08:18 AMPosted by Randwin
while having a state police running around warning people not to get out of control.


You know, ever since I posted the OP this bugged me, because it reminded me of something I had seen/read but I couldn't quite put my finger on what it was.

I remember now. It's the movie Equilibrium, where the Tetragrammaton would run around preventing people from feeling any emotions at all. While the Shado-pan are not at that level of totalitarianism yet, it is a bit chilling.

EDIT: For greater clarity
Edited by Heon on 9/29/2012 10:49 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7805
I know! Its like they're a nice version of the conformity police.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
7665
I don't think the Shado'Pan are trying to suppress emotions so much as, trying to prevent larger conflicts that can lead to a Sha break out.

I had to reread the burdens again to see if I missed any thing and the more I read, the more I had to say not "what the hell emperor?" but "what the hell his council?"

It was the Jade Serpent (whose name escapes me) that said "free your self of doubt"

It was the Monkey King who, with out being asked to, made these masks that could make emotions manifest in a physical form.

It was the the rest of the Celestials that didn't tell him to stop, or seek harmonious balance internally. Granted the writing it written in memorial style, without a flashback quest, we can't even know if he tried.

Also of note, During the last part of the ritual, the sky turns into Fel green flames and the people panic, but not Shaohao - no Sha.

When the ritual fails because Shaohao did not consider anything other than his empire, he begins to doubt his actions and tremble in fear of the impending doom - Sha of Doubt in the east manifests, Sha of Fear in the west Manifests.

When his is told he must include all of the land not just his empire, he pops into enlightened mist (I like the idea he popped like a balloon). Sha disappeared? it is not really clear what happened after that moment. We know that the mist saved them from the Well's explosion, but 2 Prime Sha had just cropped up, did they sink back down when he popped or did they rampage around till someone did something? I don't know.
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