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Let me ask you a question Subrosian -
Say the op demoted the character in question, put him on ignore then talked to the gm about /gkicking him. And the gm refused to /gkick. And the op's stance here was, "I quit because my gm did not back the decision I wanted to make."
What would your answer be?
Would it be along the lines of - an officer and a gm won't always see eye to eye but they need to learn to work together and resolve the issues they disagree on when they come up or else the person has no business being an officer?
The only difference between my scenario and the op is in my scenario the officer is not so hasty to take 'final' drastic actions.
That was my whole point to my earlier post - the OP had other options and since he was NOT the gm and he knew the gm and the offender were friends, maybe he acted hastily to do a /gkick.
In my guild and in your guild Sub, this behavior would be 100% unacceptable and as a gm I *would* back the officer with the /gkick. But this isn't my guild. Its not your guild. My impression was that it was a social family guild. While I can't imagine any guild of any kind would condone or encourage that behavior, maybe the gm has different expectations for his officers. Maybe the gm felt it was more appropriate to try to talk to the offender, explain what he did wrong, get an apology and try to teach him.
Maybe that guild has a set of rules stating first offense, second offense, third offense then /gkick and those rules weren't followed.
This is the kind of stuff we don't know and the follow up questions are entirely appropriate if we are to do anything other than play, "stroke the ego" on these forums.
The original post explains that the person went ballistic and refused to stop harassing him via PMs. There's no excuse or tolerance from that. For the GM to come back and not back his Officers, simply because the person in question was a friend, is favoritism.
Or maybe the GL didn't think his friend deserved to be kicked because he was a long time guild member, with some of the rules relaxed due to a disability. This is why the other side of a story is always helpful. Why give the benefit of the doubt to the OP and not the GL? The OP is the one with the ax to grind. When someone is exhibiting a clear bias, asking additional questions is that much more important.
Some people come into these forums with a long account with often excruciating detail about some convoluted situation, and they have real honest questions about the ways the could have handled things better. I like those posts, and I am always completely willing to accept these facts at face value, because the OP wants to be as clear as possible in order to receive the best advice. Then you get a post like this, with a disgruntled ex-officer saying how awful his ex-GL is, and I am skeptical from the start.
To be clear, I am not trying to debate what is or is not "harassment". I am trying to discuss how to respond to the various types of posters. I haven't thought too much about it before which makes it an interesting subject. In general though, I think that posters that provide more detail will end up more authentic and believable
Not a GM here just an Adult who loves and plays the game. If the analogy is correct and you received threats to your person then you should have reported that person. I agree if (IF) your scenario is good as it stands then you were right to dump him. but without seeing all the circumstances if everyone knew how this person was and understood his deficiency then you could have dumped him from the chat and /ignored him and discussed it with the owner.
90 Pandaren Shaman
I didn't read the whole thread, but I just wanted to make a point. This RL friend that has autism. That is no excuse for bad behavior. Autistic people oftentimes know the difference between good and bad behavior. I have no love of people who hide behind a label and use it as a "get out of jail free card." Rarely can it actually be used as an excuse, and even then, not something I like seeing.
It has a bad effect on people who do have it, and it makes it harder for them to admit it. Who wants to be labeled an autistic if the general feeling is you're psychotic?
As such, I admire what you did OP. People should not have to put up with that period.
For your question, I haven't been a victim myself. I have seen it happen to others though, and it makes me sick every time.
Edited by Starmorning on 10/1/2012 1:29 PM PDT
You absolutely are.
Sigh... you don't seem to be paying attention to what I am saying regarding the OP and his dubious story. If you feel the OP was harassed, that is entirely your right. I feel that there is more to the story than what was said. Given that the OP claimed to receive death threats that he never acted on, and refuses to elaborate on anything, I don't believe much of what he says at this point.
I hope you can understand the difference between "what happened to the OP was acceptable" (what you think I am saying) and "the OP is not being forthcoming about what happened" (what I am actually saying)
If you feel I'm not telling the truth because I left out details on what was said then with all due respect you are really not giving me a chance.
Its not open for discussion what was said because it is irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact I acted in the best interest of the guild after being threatened in whispers because xxxx had a meltdown over a situation in pvp that made him angry and truculent in gchat. To be demoted to a rank where he couldn't speak,(after being told to stop by me and others in the guild several times). Then getting butthurt and threatening me in whispers. After all that a gkick was leveraged and the Guild Leader demoted me from officer refusing to hear my side of the story because I gkicked his friend.
Do you think I have no idea what a threat is? I assure you I can tell the difference, and that is crossing the line with me ESPECIALLY when it involved my family.
I'm thick skinned and can take verbal abuse and insults pretty darn well. Coming from a family of all military service and being in the military myself I do believe I handled it pretty well. I was one of 3 other officers who started this guild, I had much more longetivity than xxxxx autistic member not that it matters. A report was filed using the in game report tool.
Last but not least I've moved on to a predominately military guild, we don't know each other in RL but we play together and do not put up with harrassment or drama of any kind in the guild. I am not an officer in this new guild, I can finally enjoy the game once again.
All the best.
I've experienced something similar. We had a member who had some issues. He was a trial though; it was during his first two weeks and there are no guarantees for something like that. We gave him the full two weeks to see if some talks could wo rk it out. It did not. He simply did not fit into the guild, and we could see that over time he would not be happy and neither would our other raiders. So, one day I pulled him into mumble, explained the situation to him, and told him he could stay in the guild as long as he needed provided he behaved himself, but he would no longer be raiding with us. He wound up leaving to join another raiding guild (and, sadly, was kicked out of that one).
Your situation is different . From the sounsd of things this person was in your guild longer. In your position I would have talked to the other officers and GL first. Was one of them trying to help him? Was there an understanding in the guild that, due to his autism, he was given a little leeway? If after the discussion I felt that the leadership was keeping him solely because he was a friend without consideration for the rest of the guild, and would not bend, I would have had to do some thinking about whether or not it was the right place for me.
I dunno, it sounds like there might have been a lack of communication in your old guild. But even if I had kicked a guy, my gleader would talk to me about it if he disagreed, not demote me automatically.
PS - dude, you can't expect people to believe you 100% on this forum when on the first page you say you won't divulge details. There's always another side to the story, and people in this forum generally try to be fair to all sides. It's not personal (most of the time, anyways).
Edited by Dakeea on 10/2/2012 9:23 AM PDT
Well of course you left out details. You gave your side of the story. I don't doubt that you gave all the facts you are aware of. But it is a very common problem on these forums when people come for help with drama situations. We rarely ever get both sides of the story.
I don't think Siantha is calling you a liar or inferring you are dishonest (well, not intending to at least). You are giving us your perspective on what happened. What about the other guys perspective? Why did he go ballistic? Did you jump all over him in /gchat, did you try to talk to him nicely in /gchat? Did you take it to whispers? Were you even involved in why he went ballistic or did you see him go off and act accordingly?
For all we know, outside of game, austic friend went to the GM:
AF: I got kicked out of your guild last night!
GM: What? why?
AF: Well, this event happened. When I tried to discuss it, people started shouting me down. I lost my cool a little bit, but was attacked and trying to defend myself.
GM: Well, what did you say and what did they say?
AF: They werent even making sense. They were just attacking me and yelling at me. I didn't get to say anything because Emberiss demoted me so I couldn't talk. Then when I pst'd him to find out why he /gkicked me.
I do applaud you for just leaving and not making a big deal out of the situation within guild. That was absolutely the right decision. And in your defense, you actually did not come in here asking if you handled it right. You asked if others have had similar experiences. But the conversation has turned into a 'was this handled right situation.' Considering you are dealing with a RL friend of the GL, we would need more information. Was this a raiding guild? Or was it a guild started by the GL and this guy and other RL friends so they could play together? Are there rules outlining when somebody should be kicked? Were they followed?
Like I said a earlier, maybe the guy should have been kicked and not invited back. But based on the answer to some of those questions maybe you should have demoted him and put him on ignore then let the guild leader deal with it. Then depending on how the gl deals with it you'd have a decision to stay or go. You always have the final say. If you find that the guild environment is unsuitable, do what you did and leave.
My comments/advice are not in any way shape or form meant to say that the kid who went off was justified or you have to put up with that kind of treatment. You always have a choice.
Edited by Khahan on 10/2/2012 11:25 AM PDT
Thank you for the relevant details - this does sound like inconsistent leadership from your GL, and you were probably right to leave. Even if the GL did not like the idea his friend was kicked (which is reasonable), it did not follow that you needed to be demoted if you were honestly acting in the best interests of the guild.
I also apologize that came off as overly critical/hostile - my personal bias is usually to favor the actions of the GL, which is probably part of the reason I had my initial reaction
And that is how harrassment and threats need to be dealt with let Blizz determine if there was an infraction and they can determine the degree of punishment as well.
I have several friends with Autism and none of them use their Mental disorder/Condition as an excuse to be a tool.
Frankly if he is having problems handling himself appropriately in a Social Video game, he has more serious problems to deal with, And May need some help, the kind of help he can not get in a game. Sadly not everyone with Autism is living in a supportive understanding Environment where the help they need is available.
I hope the guild leader's support of this guy does not cost him his guild, not everyone is so understanding or tolerant
I was in a guild where One member yelled out a string of Cuss words for no reason, I quietly let it be known that I was uncomfortable with this behavior and so did a few others.. I put the player on ignore, but what got me to leave the guild was no sooner than I and a few other expressed our displeasure over the behavior, then the guild leader promoted the guy to an Officer. I did not wait for him to start kicking those who voiced displeasure at his moronic outburst, I left the guild with all my toons
I'm not sure why it's important to "verify" the experiences people ask about on this forum, when specific people and guilds aren't being called out. I don't see the harm in just taking what people say at face value. It doesn't harm me in any way to give advice to someone who turns out to be lying. Heck, even in a case where everything is made up, there still might be useful stuff to learn for other people who come by and read a thread.
That usefulness gets diminished though if threads devolve into posts arguing about proving stuff happened.
If you want the best advice, you have to be as honest as you can. Someone who skews information to make themselves look better won't get advice that is as good. Either way, it's the OPs decision. If you don't want to waste time giving advice to someone who you flat out don't believe, you can just not respond at all.
That isn't to say that followup questions aren't sometimes useful. In this specific case, questions like "What was the guild policy for this behavoir?" can be helpful to the OP (and other readers in similar situations) because it gives them something to think about and check into when they join a new guild (or if they ever step into a leadership position again.) However, questions designed simply to verify someone's story aren't that helpful.
Edited by Phee on 10/3/2012 12:51 PM PDT
Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.
Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.
Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.