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Some of you may know me as the guy that writes the windwalker profiles for simc, for those of you who don't, herro. I'm going to try to put some of the reoccurring debates to sleep.
The stat values are the same for 2h and DW with the exception of hit passed 7.5% for dw.
agi > exp/hit cap > Haste (to roughly 6.7k rating) > crit > haste > mastery
-Reran stat weights just now and mastery beat hit passed 7.5% for dw-
3. Tigereye Brew at 10 stacks.
Its important to note that on some fights, because of the negligible difference in TEB usage, if there will be a period of increased damage on the boss USE TEB AT WHATEVER STACKS YOU HAVE FOR IT.
Its also worth noting that in a perfect rotation with perfect FoF usage, its a negligible gain. Within that perfect rotation if you were to drop FoF from your rotation entirely, you only lose around 1.6% of your theoretical max DPS, and as haste and mastery levels increase with later tiers it becomes even less and less of a loss until eventually by the final tier, were no changes to happen, FoF would be a flat DPS loss again.
Currently, with 2pc and heroic BiS, Not using FoF is a 3.4% dps loss, which is pretty massive. I had eein update the action list to reflect the new FoF haste stuff so now the lines are a bit different but its basically the same. If you will lose a tick of FoF due to early cancellation (ie movement), DO NOT USE IT.
2h v DW doesn't make itself present until you start progressing into heroic content, at which point DW seemingly surpasses it for a multitude of reasons, most of which relate back to the way of the monk passive.
For alamonk and his guide:
In regards to 4/7 of single target, its not a set energy level, its simply put ( 100 - ( 5 * your energy regen ))
For your aoe rotation, you should only do the priority you listed at greater than 5 targets. I haven't done much testing at EXACTLY 5 targets, but:
2 targets - single target rotation
3-4 targets - spinning crane kick replaces jab in the single target rotation
6+ targets - RSK/SCK spam
NINE OR HIGHER - Chi burst beats RSK on DPE at 9+ targets, so as long as the debuff won't drop go ahead and use chi burst.
For the Xuen v RJW debate, RJW is really just not practical at all. for it to beat xuen you'd have to basically have aoe EVERY 30 seconds for the full duration of RJW.
I'll put some more detailed stuff for the single target rotation in another post.
Edited by Gahhda on 10/7/2012 1:11 PM PDT
...I'm looking forward to your results...
Rough numbers (haven't had time to get into WoL to break down all the specifics), but here Are my results:
Using the Claws of Gekkan and Crescent of Ichor for DW (non-haste reforged to expertise) and Firestorm Greatstaff for 2h (crit->expertise) I ran 5 parses for each weapon configuration with out enchants, and another 5 with enchants (Windsong being used at the current time.) Also note I couldn't encourage people to stick around making sure all the raid buffs were up and active, so all results obtained by my own personal buffs (no outside buffs/debuffs) and On the lvl 93 Raiding dummy. I know it's not the most accurate values, but it's the best I could do at the given time.
Without enchants I obtained the values that I obtained reflected what I saw in beta and both 2h and dw ran an averaged 41,254 dps for a 3 minute "encounter time."
The second testing with Windsong on all weapons, I ran into what simcraft may be hinting towards: 2H averaged a value of 45,734 dps while DW provided a significant bonus, with an average of 48,243 dps.
While I know damage goes up with raid buffs, movement will drop the dps that can be achieved, especially if tiger palm stacks ever fall off. Additionally, I know my damage isn't that great, but it's the 5% difference between dw and 2h that strikes me as astonishing, and all I can say is it's due to enchant procs rather than damage output.
Sad that it's this way? Yes. Does it make sense? Definitely. Only thing I can say that would help equalize the weapon usage would be to have different 1h/2h enchants. Otherwise, when using enchants (which you should in a raiding atmosphere) DW is the undeniable way to go. I will retract my earlier statements that it's pure aesthetic choice and go with the crowd =p
Knowing these aren't the most accurate numbers, I plan on bringing some friends along to do more testing when I can bribe them, but for the time being this is the best I can do.
This is word for word (minus the aoe because I haven't implemented it yet) the simc action list:
As you can see, FoF debuff/TP buff are actually more important than cds.
Some of the more advanced things are blackout kick filler usage and tiger palm mastery procs.
BoK Filler - What the line
says is that if you are chi capped OR if you will have the energy to rising sun kick when it comes off cd, use blackout kick. So, as an example, if your regen is 11 e/s and rising sun kick has 3 seconds left on the cd, you'll regen 33 energy in the time it takes RSK to come off cd, which is less than is required to jab, so you shouldn't use BoK.
Tiger palm mastery procs - Something very interesting I stumbled upon.
This sets it up to use tiger palm in one of two cases. Either you won't cap energy during the GCD used to dump the TP mastery proc, OR the proc has less than or equal to 2 seconds remaining on its duration. So, as long as the mastery proc has 3 or more seconds, DO NOT use TP mastery procs if you will cap your energy.
Chi brew - currently the sim gets more dps (~1k) from using chi brew instead of power strikes.
The key thing to note is to never waste chi with chi brew, if you have 1 2 3 or 4 DO NOT USE IT. Only at 0 chi should you use your chi brew cd.
On an aside, I personally find that chi brew is much easier to use rotationally than power strikes, as power strikes complicates the rotation with timers.
Chi sphere at the top of the list is the name of spheres that spawn if you use power strikes and go over cap. You can use jab at 2 chi if power strikes is off cd IF you are aware and pickup the sphere on the ground after. (just now implemented that change and updated the action list in this post to reflect is.)
Edited by Gahhda on 10/7/2012 11:49 AM PDT
90 Draenei Monk
Are you sure?
I came back to comment on this again after leveling up a bit more and found exactly what you describe here. It's really a night and day difference from 79 to 80 with these abilities and the difference became apparent as soon as the level hit even with the same gear; getting Cataclysm questing gear just made it more apparent.
Thanks for the replies, guys, and hopefully it's some handy information for monks as they level through Outland/Northrend and deal with the new abilities and changes they'll encounter along the way.
Is there a point where exp < haste? I know you should have a 0% to be dodged on a 93/boss but past that point?
Do you mean before that point? There is no point until expertise soft cap (7.5% or 2550 rating) at which haste takes priority over expertise. Past that 7.5% expertise becomes "worthless" assuming you won't ever be in front of the boss, but even when you are the percentage you're in front during the fight is small enough that expertise is still basically worthless.
Didn't know there was another capable option over windsong. Technically you could go with the elemental damage, but unless they've changed this one to be more competetive, those types of enchants are rarely much to look at.
As someone that didn't play the beta even though I had access (wanted to learn my monk the old fashioned way after release) I'm wondering on the reasoning behind haste > crit ?
I find haste to be an almost wasted stat. With the amount of mastery procs (even with me forging out of it) I rarely run out of energy even on long boss fights (I'll admit my highest progression so far is LFR first 3 bosses of only dungeon I qualify for) so haste really doesn't help me much. I top the DPS charts in everything I do (on last boss fight in LFR I was #2 in DPS with going to the spirit realm and barely 1000 behind the #1).
I'm finding that my priorities are Agility (duh) > hit/expertise > crit > everything else.
Can someone please explain why haste is always listed above crit for windwalker in most of these guides ?
The reason haste is listed higher:
- More energy = more chi = more damage
- Haste increases auto attack speed, which in turn increases TS procs, which in turn increases auto attack speed.
- There are multiple lines built into the rotation to prevent energy capping, and chi is much more valuable than energy, so energy capping isn't some horrific event that will break your dps. Ex:
Blackout kick even if you don't have a mastery proc if you're at chi cap. And,
Only use a TP mastery proc if you won't cap energy during the gcd + reaction time, but use it if the buff is about to fade.
All in all, the sim currently has about a 5.95% overflow of energy (counting the 4pc which massively plays into that value) in heroic gear. If you attempt to decrease that number by in any way sacrificing chi it has ALWAYS been a loss, if anyone comes up with a way feel free to send me a tell in game/the simc irc channel.
We've also observed that around 6600 haste, crit does become superior, mainly because of a combination of FoF and the 4PC resulting in too much over-capping.
The reason haste is listed higher:
Going to move the discussion here from the 'windwalker is not PvE viable' ... would it be possible for you to run the SIM without reforging all into haste like crazy and even reforging out of haste / mastery -> crit once at hit / exp cap ? I would love to see the results.
The values are close enough that it doesn't make a massive difference. There really aren't fights where you'd be in a situation that haste is worthless and crit isn't though, so there isn't much reason to stack crit unless you have difficulties with the rotation haste stacking.
Thank you. For now I'll stick with what I have and continue with crit. I don't have difficulties with the rotation at all but I like my current build / reforge for what I'm doing.
can you post a parse of the gear you used / reforges etc. for the SIM for the crit build ?
Thanks for coming here to discuss this:
Here is the gear list directly from Gahdda's T14H simc profile:
# Gear Summary
It looks like a mess, but it shows each reforge and the second quote shows complete gear value.
What i was saying in the other thread is that at lower haste levels, crit wont be able to compete with haste because of such large amounts of wait time that could be spent generating chi.
With the way scaling works, you could see a larger difference at your gear level.
On a side note: get rid of the coaster of bad! Its such a terrible trinket despite its iLVL.
I'd recommend Searing Words by a large margin (as one of the best pre-raid gearing options, and EONS better than the coaster)
Edited by Advanced on 10/13/2012 10:44 PM PDT
I'm doing additional testing on FoF, and even though i've seen 4 ticks before at 85, i've NEVER seen a 4 tick at 90. Only 5 ticks. Direct + 4 every 1 second for 4 seconds, non-hasted.
All of the user input i've recieved says the same thing.
For some reason its only showing 4 ticks in the sim due to its previous setup effectively nerfing FoF by 20%.
:) Will be updated in time for next release.
EDIT: this bugfix will devalue haste at bis gear levels. I'll figure out where the haste plateau is to switch to crit as soon as possible.
Gahddo; this also means that the T14H profile will need to be optimized yet again! :3
Edited by Advanced on 10/14/2012 2:27 PM PDT
Tiger Palm doesn't put a debuff on targets. It puts a buff called Tiger Power on the monk that causes them to ignore 10% armor and stacks three times. This is important because the effect doesn't need to be built back up every time you switch targets.
Changes the stat weights drastically. As soon as you get 2pc you should switch to crit > haste > mastery. Before 2pc weights remain the same.
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