5.0 Windwalker PvE Guide

90 Blood Elf Warlock
7260
Some of you may know me as the guy that writes the windwalker profiles for simc, for those of you who don't, herro. I'm going to try to put some of the reoccurring debates to sleep.



On beta I found that if you go DW (which all indicators are saying you should) Haste >Crit > Mastery. If for some reason you use a 2h (example: not being able to get a good pair of 1hs/your loot luck sucks or you happen to be a scribe when you hit 90) Then it's probably better to go Haste > Mastery > Crit.


Its still haste > crit > mastery for 2H.


The stat values are the same for 2h and DW with the exception of hit passed 7.5% for dw.
agi > exp/hit cap > Haste (to roughly 6.7k rating) > crit > haste > mastery
-Reran stat weights just now and mastery beat hit passed 7.5% for dw-

3. Tigereye Brew at 10 stacks.


I've seen information that suggests it's a negligible difference to use TB at any stack amount.
http://elitistjerks.com/f99/t129814-windwalker_dps_flurry_tender_fisting/p8/#post2189744


Its important to note that on some fights, because of the negligible difference in TEB usage, if there will be a period of increased damage on the boss USE TEB AT WHATEVER STACKS YOU HAVE FOR IT.


Its also worth noting that in a perfect rotation with perfect FoF usage, its a negligible gain. Within that perfect rotation if you were to drop FoF from your rotation entirely, you only lose around 1.6% of your theoretical max DPS, and as haste and mastery levels increase with later tiers it becomes even less and less of a loss until eventually by the final tier, were no changes to happen, FoF would be a flat DPS loss again.


I keep seeing this pop up, and a bunch of random numbers flying around, but I never see any proof?

My personal testing and theorycrafting have shown otherwise?
Maybe you forgot they buffed it dramatically?


Currently, with 2pc and heroic BiS, Not using FoF is a 3.4% dps loss, which is pretty massive. I had eein update the action list to reflect the new FoF haste stuff so now the lines are a bit different but its basically the same. If you will lose a tick of FoF due to early cancellation (ie movement), DO NOT USE IT.

@Advanced:

You're probably wondering where i've been with numbers; sadly I've been told I need to Mistweaver it up for the coming weeks for guild raiding and my time has been spent getting that all situated. When I get a spare moment I'll be sure to go back and get some personal data for the 2h v dw debate.


2h v DW doesn't make itself present until you start progressing into heroic content, at which point DW seemingly surpasses it for a multitude of reasons, most of which relate back to the way of the monk passive.

For alamonk and his guide:

In regards to 4/7 of single target, its not a set energy level, its simply put ( 100 - ( 5 * your energy regen ))

For your aoe rotation, you should only do the priority you listed at greater than 5 targets. I haven't done much testing at EXACTLY 5 targets, but:
2 targets - single target rotation
3-4 targets - spinning crane kick replaces jab in the single target rotation
6+ targets - RSK/SCK spam
NINE OR HIGHER - Chi burst beats RSK on DPE at 9+ targets, so as long as the debuff won't drop go ahead and use chi burst.
For the Xuen v RJW debate, RJW is really just not practical at all. for it to beat xuen you'd have to basically have aoe EVERY 30 seconds for the full duration of RJW.

I'll put some more detailed stuff for the single target rotation in another post.
Edited by Gahhda on 10/7/2012 1:11 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Monk
14615
...I'm looking forward to your results...

Rough numbers (haven't had time to get into WoL to break down all the specifics), but here Are my results:

Using the Claws of Gekkan and Crescent of Ichor for DW (non-haste reforged to expertise) and Firestorm Greatstaff for 2h (crit->expertise) I ran 5 parses for each weapon configuration with out enchants, and another 5 with enchants (Windsong being used at the current time.) Also note I couldn't encourage people to stick around making sure all the raid buffs were up and active, so all results obtained by my own personal buffs (no outside buffs/debuffs) and On the lvl 93 Raiding dummy. I know it's not the most accurate values, but it's the best I could do at the given time.

Without enchants I obtained the values that I obtained reflected what I saw in beta and both 2h and dw ran an averaged 41,254 dps for a 3 minute "encounter time."

The second testing with Windsong on all weapons, I ran into what simcraft may be hinting towards: 2H averaged a value of 45,734 dps while DW provided a significant bonus, with an average of 48,243 dps.

While I know damage goes up with raid buffs, movement will drop the dps that can be achieved, especially if tiger palm stacks ever fall off. Additionally, I know my damage isn't that great, but it's the 5% difference between dw and 2h that strikes me as astonishing, and all I can say is it's due to enchant procs rather than damage output.

Sad that it's this way? Yes. Does it make sense? Definitely. Only thing I can say that would help equalize the weapon usage would be to have different 1h/2h enchants. Otherwise, when using enchants (which you should in a raiding atmosphere) DW is the undeniable way to go. I will retract my earlier statements that it's pure aesthetic choice and go with the crowd =p

Knowing these aren't the most accurate numbers, I plan on bringing some friends along to do more testing when I can bribe them, but for the time being this is the best I can do.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Warlock
7260
This is word for word (minus the aoe because I haven't implemented it yet) the simc action list:

actions=auto_attack
actions+=/chi_sphere,if=talent.power_strikes.enabled&buff.chi_sphere.react&chi<4
actions+=/virmens_bite_potion,if=buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die<=60
actions+=/use_item,name=red_crane_grips
actions+=/berserking
actions+=/chi_brew,if=talent.chi_brew.enabled&chi=0
actions+=/rising_sun_kick,if=!target.debuff.rising_sun_kick.remains|target.debuff.rising_sun_kick.remains<=3
actions+=/tiger_palm,if=buff.tiger_power.stack<3|buff.tiger_power.remains<=3
actions+=/tigereye_brew_use,if=!buff.tigereye_brew_use.up&buff.tigereye_brew.react=10
actions+=/energizing_brew,if=energy.time_to_max>5
actions+=/invoke_xuen,if=talent.invoke_xuen.enabled
actions+=/rushing_jade_wind,if=talent.rushing_jade_wind.enabled

actions.st=rising_sun_kick
actions.st+=/fists_of_fury,if=!buff.energizing_brew.up&energy.time_to_max>(cast_time)&buff.tiger_power.remains>(cast_time)&buff.tiger_power.stack=3
actions.st+=/blackout_kick,if=buff.combo_breaker_bok.react
actions.st+=/blackout_kick,if=(chi>=3&energy.time_to_max<=2&!talent.ascension.enabled)|(chi>=4&energy.time_to_max<=2&talent.ascension.enabled)
actions.st+=/tiger_palm,if=(buff.combo_breaker_tp.react&energy.time_to_max>=2)|(buff.combo_breaker_tp.remains<=2&buff.combo_breaker_tp.react)
actions.st+=/jab,if=talent.ascension.enabled&chi<=3
actions.st+=/jab,if=!talent.ascension.enabled&chi<=2
actions.st+=/blackout_kick,if=((energy+(energy.regen*(cooldown.rising_sun_kick.remains)))>=40)|(chi=4&!talent.ascension.enabled)|(chi=5&talent.ascension.enabled)

As you can see, FoF debuff/TP buff are actually more important than cds.
Some of the more advanced things are blackout kick filler usage and tiger palm mastery procs.

BoK Filler - What the line

"actions.st+=/blackout_kick,if=((energy+(energy.regen*(cooldown.rising_sun_kick.remains)))>=40)|(chi=4&!talent.ascension.enabled)|(chi=5&talent.ascension.enabled)"

says is that if you are chi capped OR if you will have the energy to rising sun kick when it comes off cd, use blackout kick. So, as an example, if your regen is 11 e/s and rising sun kick has 3 seconds left on the cd, you'll regen 33 energy in the time it takes RSK to come off cd, which is less than is required to jab, so you shouldn't use BoK.

Tiger palm mastery procs - Something very interesting I stumbled upon.

"actions.st+=/tiger_palm,if=(buff.combo_breaker_tp.react&energy.time_to_max>=2)|(buff.combo_breaker_tp.remains<=2&buff.combo_breaker_tp.react)"

This sets it up to use tiger palm in one of two cases. Either you won't cap energy during the GCD used to dump the TP mastery proc, OR the proc has less than or equal to 2 seconds remaining on its duration. So, as long as the mastery proc has 3 or more seconds, DO NOT use TP mastery procs if you will cap your energy.

Chi brew - currently the sim gets more dps (~1k) from using chi brew instead of power strikes.

actions+=/chi_brew,if=talent.chi_brew.enabled&chi=0

The key thing to note is to never waste chi with chi brew, if you have 1 2 3 or 4 DO NOT USE IT. Only at 0 chi should you use your chi brew cd.
On an aside, I personally find that chi brew is much easier to use rotationally than power strikes, as power strikes complicates the rotation with timers.

Chi sphere at the top of the list is the name of spheres that spawn if you use power strikes and go over cap. You can use jab at 2 chi if power strikes is off cd IF you are aware and pickup the sphere on the ground after. (just now implemented that change and updated the action list in this post to reflect is.)
Edited by Gahhda on 10/7/2012 11:49 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Monk
4845
Are you sure?

It wouldn't surprise me if that was the way it's supposed to work, but it doesn't seem to be in practice right now. Obviously I haven't used it at max level, but it outdamages Blackout Kick in melee range for me right now and takes only 1 Chi.

I'm wearing crappy cloth caster heirloom gear at the moment while leveling so it may be inflating it in comparison to if I had actual AGI/AP gear, but there's really no point in blackout kick as I level since energy starvation is a non-issue with SFB rather than trying to use 2 Chi per kick, AND it's outdamaging the kick even in melee range as it is.

I had assumed this changed as I got higher in level because of base damage adjustments, but that seems unlikely if there's a mechanic that was supposed to be handling the damage difference.

Unless that mechanic doesn't work at lower levels or something like that.


I was worried about this while leveling myself. I assure you its not the case. Continue to use SFB as your primary chi dump, but literally the moment you hit 80 and head to Peak of Serenity to pick up your free blue weapon SFB stops being relevant. At 90 you'll use it if you HAVE to stay off the mob, but its a pretty awful move even with the 50% damage bonus. Its better than what most melee DPS has to deal with by far, but its a far cry from what you were doing pre-80.


I came back to comment on this again after leveling up a bit more and found exactly what you describe here. It's really a night and day difference from 79 to 80 with these abilities and the difference became apparent as soon as the level hit even with the same gear; getting Cataclysm questing gear just made it more apparent.

Thanks for the replies, guys, and hopefully it's some handy information for monks as they level through Outland/Northrend and deal with the new abilities and changes they'll encounter along the way.
Reply Quote
Should put the best "budget" enchant for weapons, too, for those without access to sha crystals.
Reply Quote
Is there a point where exp < haste? I know you should have a 0% to be dodged on a 93/boss but past that point?
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Warlock
7260
Is there a point where exp < haste? I know you should have a 0% to be dodged on a 93/boss but past that point?


Do you mean before that point? There is no point until expertise soft cap (7.5% or 2550 rating) at which haste takes priority over expertise. Past that 7.5% expertise becomes "worthless" assuming you won't ever be in front of the boss, but even when you are the percentage you're in front during the fight is small enough that expertise is still basically worthless.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Monk
14615
10/09/2012 05:41 AMPosted by Nakkaru
Should put the best "budget" enchant for weapons, too, for those without access to sha crystals.

Didn't know there was another capable option over windsong. Technically you could go with the elemental damage, but unless they've changed this one to be more competetive, those types of enchants are rarely much to look at.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
7970
As someone that didn't play the beta even though I had access (wanted to learn my monk the old fashioned way after release) I'm wondering on the reasoning behind haste > crit ?

I find haste to be an almost wasted stat. With the amount of mastery procs (even with me forging out of it) I rarely run out of energy even on long boss fights (I'll admit my highest progression so far is LFR first 3 bosses of only dungeon I qualify for) so haste really doesn't help me much. I top the DPS charts in everything I do (on last boss fight in LFR I was #2 in DPS with going to the spirit realm and barely 1000 behind the #1).

I'm finding that my priorities are Agility (duh) > hit/expertise > crit > everything else.

Can someone please explain why haste is always listed above crit for windwalker in most of these guides ?
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Warlock
7260
The reason haste is listed higher:
- More energy = more chi = more damage
- Haste increases auto attack speed, which in turn increases TS procs, which in turn increases auto attack speed.
- There are multiple lines built into the rotation to prevent energy capping, and chi is much more valuable than energy, so energy capping isn't some horrific event that will break your dps. Ex:
actions.st+=/blackout_kick,if=((energy+(energy.regen*(cooldown.rising_sun_kick.remains)))>=40)|(chi=4&!talent.ascension.enabled)|(chi=5&talent.ascension.enabled)

Blackout kick even if you don't have a mastery proc if you're at chi cap. And,

actions.st+=/tiger_palm,if=(buff.combo_breaker_tp.react&energy.time_to_max>=2)|(buff.combo_breaker_tp.remains<=2&buff.combo_breaker_tp.react)

Only use a TP mastery proc if you won't cap energy during the gcd + reaction time, but use it if the buff is about to fade.

All in all, the sim currently has about a 5.95% overflow of energy (counting the 4pc which massively plays into that value) in heroic gear. If you attempt to decrease that number by in any way sacrificing chi it has ALWAYS been a loss, if anyone comes up with a way feel free to send me a tell in game/the simc irc channel.

We've also observed that around 6600 haste, crit does become superior, mainly because of a combination of FoF and the 4PC resulting in too much over-capping.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
7970
The reason haste is listed higher:
- More energy = more chi = more damage
- Haste increases auto attack speed, which in turn increases TS procs, which in turn increases auto attack speed.
- There are multiple lines built into the rotation to prevent energy capping, and chi is much more valuable than energy, so energy capping isn't some horrific event that will break your dps. Ex:
actions.st+=/blackout_kick,if=((energy+(energy.regen*(cooldown.rising_sun_kick.remains)))>=40)|(chi=4&!talent.ascension.enabled)|(chi=5&talent.ascension.enabled)

Blackout kick even if you don't have a mastery proc if you're at chi cap. And,

actions.st+=/tiger_palm,if=(buff.combo_breaker_tp.react&energy.time_to_max>=2)|(buff.combo_breaker_tp.remains<=2&buff.combo_breaker_tp.react)

Only use a TP mastery proc if you won't cap energy during the gcd + reaction time, but use it if the buff is about to fade.

All in all, the sim currently has about a 5.95% overflow of energy (counting the 4pc which massively plays into that value) in heroic gear. If you attempt to decrease that number by in any way sacrificing chi it has ALWAYS been a loss, if anyone comes up with a way feel free to send me a tell in game/the simc irc channel.

We've also observed that around 6600 haste, crit does become superior, mainly because of a combination of FoF and the 4PC resulting in too much over-capping.


Going to move the discussion here from the 'windwalker is not PvE viable' ... would it be possible for you to run the SIM without reforging all into haste like crazy and even reforging out of haste / mastery -> crit once at hit / exp cap ? I would love to see the results.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Warlock
7260
10/13/2012 05:52 AMPosted by Somaliu
Going to move the discussion here from the 'windwalker is not PvE viable' ... would it be possible for you to run the SIM without reforging all into haste like crazy and even reforging out of haste / mastery -> crit once at hit / exp cap ? I would love to see the results.


Haste: 115903
Crit: 115317.5

The values are close enough that it doesn't make a massive difference. There really aren't fights where you'd be in a situation that haste is worthless and crit isn't though, so there isn't much reason to stack crit unless you have difficulties with the rotation haste stacking.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
7970
Haste: 115903
Crit: 115317.5

The values are close enough that it doesn't make a massive difference. There really aren't fights where you'd be in a situation that haste is worthless and crit isn't though, so there isn't much reason to stack crit unless you have difficulties with the rotation haste stacking.


Thank you. For now I'll stick with what I have and continue with crit. I don't have difficulties with the rotation at all but I like my current build / reforge for what I'm doing.

can you post a parse of the gear you used / reforges etc. for the SIM for the crit build ?
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
Haste: 115903
Crit: 115317.5

The values are close enough that it doesn't make a massive difference. There really aren't fights where you'd be in a situation that haste is worthless and crit isn't though, so there isn't much reason to stack crit unless you have difficulties with the rotation haste stacking.


Thank you. For now I'll stick with what I have and continue with crit. I don't have difficulties with the rotation at all but I like my current build / reforge for what I'm doing.

can you post a parse of the gear you used / reforges etc. for the SIM for the crit build ?


Thanks for coming here to discuss this:

Here is the gear list directly from Gahdda's T14H simc profile:

head=red_crane_headpiece,id=87086,gems=agile_primal_80agi_160hit_180agi,reforge=mastery_haste
neck=hellriders_choker,id=90432,reforge=hit_haste
shoulders=red_crane_spaulders,id=87088,gems=80agi_160hit_60agi,enchant=200agi_100crit,reforge=exp_crit
back=arrow_breaking_windcloak,id=87044,enchant=180crit,reforge=exp_crit
chest=red_crane_tunic,id=87084,gems=80agi_160haste_80agi_160haste_120mastery,enchant=80all,reforge=mastery_haste
wrists=bracers_of_unseen_strikes,id=86954,enchant=180agi
hands=red_crane_grips,id=87085,addon=synapse_springs_mark_ii,reforge=crit_haste
waist=stalkers_cord_of_eternal_autumn,id=87180,gems=160agi_160agi,reforge=hit_haste
legs=legguards_of_failing_purification,id=90504,gems=160agi_80agi_160hit_120agi,enchant=285agi_165crit,reforge=mastery_haste
feet=boots_of_the_still_breath,id=86943,gems=80agi_160haste_60crit,enchant=140agi
finger1=regails_band_of_the_endless,id=90503,enchant=160agi
finger2=painful_thorned_ring,id=86974,enchant=160agi,reforge=mastery_haste
trinket1=bottle_of_infinite_stars,id=87057,reforge=mastery_haste
trinket2=terror_in_the_mists,id=87167
main_hand=claws_of_shekzeer,id=86988,gems=500agi,enchant=dancing_steel,reforge=crit_haste
off_hand=claws_of_shekzeer,id=86988,enchant=dancing_steel,reforge=crit_haste

# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=80
# gear_agility=17024
# gear_stamina=20000
# gear_intellect=80
# gear_spirit=80
# gear_expertise_rating=2569
# gear_hit_rating=2639
# gear_crit_rating=5530
# gear_haste_rating=5891
# gear_mastery_rating=2739
# gear_armor=18618
# meta_gem=agile_primal
# tier14_2pc_melee=1
# tier14_4pc_melee=1


It looks like a mess, but it shows each reforge and the second quote shows complete gear value.

What i was saying in the other thread is that at lower haste levels, crit wont be able to compete with haste because of such large amounts of wait time that could be spent generating chi.

With the way scaling works, you could see a larger difference at your gear level.

On a side note: get rid of the coaster of bad! Its such a terrible trinket despite its iLVL.
I'd recommend Searing Words by a large margin (as one of the best pre-raid gearing options, and EONS better than the coaster)
Edited by Advanced on 10/13/2012 10:44 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
Simc update:

I'm doing additional testing on FoF, and even though i've seen 4 ticks before at 85, i've NEVER seen a 4 tick at 90. Only 5 ticks. Direct + 4 every 1 second for 4 seconds, non-hasted.

All of the user input i've recieved says the same thing.

For some reason its only showing 4 ticks in the sim due to its previous setup effectively nerfing FoF by 20%.

:) Will be updated in time for next release.

EDIT: this bugfix will devalue haste at bis gear levels. I'll figure out where the haste plateau is to switch to crit as soon as possible.

Gahddo; this also means that the T14H profile will need to be optimized yet again! :3
Edited by Advanced on 10/14/2012 2:27 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
9985
09/25/2012 07:02 PMPosted by Alamonk
  • Tiger Palm - 1 chi, no CD. Moderate damage; adds a 10% armor debuff for your damage to the target. The debuff stacks 3x, so 30% armor reduction. (10% armor reduction = 3-4% more damage, roughly.) Occasionally usable for free due to Combo Breaker.

  • Tiger Palm doesn't put a debuff on targets. It puts a buff called Tiger Power on the monk that causes them to ignore 10% armor and stacks three times. This is important because the effect doesn't need to be built back up every time you switch targets.
    Reply Quote
    90 Blood Elf Warlock
    7260
    Simc update:

    I'm doing additional testing on FoF, and even though i've seen 4 ticks before at 85, i've NEVER seen a 4 tick at 90. Only 5 ticks. Direct + 4 every 1 second for 4 seconds, non-hasted.

    All of the user input i've recieved says the same thing.

    For some reason its only showing 4 ticks in the sim due to its previous setup effectively nerfing FoF by 20%.

    :) Will be updated in time for next release.

    EDIT: this bugfix will devalue haste at bis gear levels. I'll figure out where the haste plateau is to switch to crit as soon as possible.

    Gahddo; this also means that the T14H profile will need to be optimized yet again! :3


    Changes the stat weights drastically. As soon as you get 2pc you should switch to crit > haste > mastery. Before 2pc weights remain the same.
    Reply Quote
    90 Pandaren Monk
    7375
    I've been using Spinning Fire Blossom instead of Blackout Kick and I've noticed that it increases my dps from around 1250 to 1470. I'm currently 71, does this change at a higher level?
    Reply Quote
    10/16/2012 08:22 PMPosted by Kaala
    I've been using Spinning Fire Blossom instead of Blackout Kick and I've noticed that it increases my dps from around 1250 to 1470. I'm currently 71, does this change at a higher level?


    Yes.
    Reply Quote

    Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

    Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

    Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

    Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

    Forums Code of Conduct

    Report Post # written by

    Reason
    Explain (256 characters max)
    Submit Cancel

    Reported!

    [Close]