Taran Zhu ticks me off

90 Orc Death Knight
3195
Varian: "We need to go to Pandaria and find my son! Family is really important to me!"

Garrosh: "PAINT THE CONTINENT RED!"

You cannot treat both sides as "equally bad" here, and I quite frankly have half a mind to just let Garrosh have his way with the Pandaren if they're going to get all snippy when the Alliance contains the Horde. Maybe the Alliance can retake Lordaeron with the resources they're currently spending keeping the Horde from conquering Pandaria.


So you help bring a war to a continent that had known nothing but peace for thousands of years, help massively destablize the continent, help bring about the return of the Sha....and you expect him to THANK YOU for it?

Serously?? What did you think MoP was gonna be, Beyond the Dark Portal Part II?


He expected to spit some baseless rhetoric on top of a soap-box and win over all the Pandaren people to fight the Horde and win back Lordaeron from the mean, old Forsaken. Then he is crowned King Of Lordaeron by virtue of his fanboyism and he takes control of the Alliance, removing all the races he doesn't like (Night Elves) and organising a "Second War Re-enactment" for every weekend's entertainment.
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90 Orc Death Knight
3195
09/26/2012 03:53 AMPosted by Gruffe
Anduin needs a princely ship to transport him home, complete with air escort and a fuzzy, wuzzy pandaren bride. :P


I personally find female pandaren cuddly...

does that make me weird? most likely.

But they are clearly setting Anduin up as the central Alliance figure


I find them very cuddly. I have a Monk that'll level soon named Adorobear, because it's the cutest darn thing I've ever seen in my life. Next to the little girl Pandaren model.
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93 Orc Warrior
11550
I really don't understand why people use events that happened during this war as justification for the war.

There was peace

Then the night elves cut off trade because of a splinter group of forsaken (before someone responds to this, I'm not calling them evil or placing blame, just stating facts)

The horde tried to to reestablish trade but was framed twice.

*UNSPECIFIED RESULTING TENSION*

War

This war is unnecessary.
Zhu is right
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I really don't understand why people use events that happened during this war as justification for the war.

There was peace

Then the night elves cut off trade because of a splinter group of forsaken (before someone responds to this, I'm not calling them evil or placing blame, just stating facts)

The horde tried to to reestablish trade but was framed twice.

*UNSPECIFIED RESULTING TENSION*

War

This war is unnecessary.
Zhu is right


Whoa whoa, hang on, this is new to me

Splinter group of the Forsaken? What Splinter group? The kaldorei never cut off trade because of a specific Forsaken group harassing their lands. If you're referring to the Wrathgate incident, that was a crime against the greater Alliance (mainly humans it would seem), and the kaldorei just followed in step
Edited by Spellestra on 9/26/2012 5:19 AM PDT
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93 Orc Warrior
11550
09/26/2012 05:18 AMPosted by Spellestra
If you're referring to the Wrathgate incident, that was a crime against the greater Alliance (mainly humans it would seem), and the kaldorei just followed in step


by cutting off trade
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90 Orc Warrior
10290
To be fair if they left Pandaria for to the horde unopposed things wouldnt be much better for the Pandarians. Garrosh's first thought on hearing about its existance is to conquer it. The horde wasnt going to leave Pandaria alone for long even if the alliance didnt turn up. At least the alliance doesnt seem to intend to forcefully conquer Pandaria like the horde


Taran Zhu knows NOTHING about the Horde or Alliance.

What he knows is "These jackasses showed up at my house and started fighting, broke my TV, pissed on the furniture, sh*t on the carpet, and wiped their asses with the curtains."

Taran Zhu's reaction was 100% rational and quite frankly the only sane reaction
Edited by Lochnar on 9/26/2012 5:25 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Hunter
5415
09/26/2012 05:18 AMPosted by Spellestra
Splinter group of the Forsaken? What Splinter group? The kaldorei never cut off trade because of a specific Forsaken group harassing their lands. If you're referring to the Wrathgate incident, that was a crime against the greater Alliance (mainly humans it would seem), and the kaldorei just followed in step


The Forsaken that sided with the Legion? The Book, The Shattering, states clearly that the Night Elves cut of trade with the Horde over the Wrathgate incident.
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09/26/2012 05:25 AMPosted by Gruffe
Splinter group of the Forsaken? What Splinter group? The kaldorei never cut off trade because of a specific Forsaken group harassing their lands. If you're referring to the Wrathgate incident, that was a crime against the greater Alliance (mainly humans it would seem), and the kaldorei just followed in step


The Forsaken that sided with the Legion? The Book, The Shattering, states clearly that the Night Elves cut of trade with the Horde over the Wrathgate incident.


Well ya, so did everyone in the Alliance, but the poster makes it seem like there was some Nelf-specific incident involving the Forsaken

Far as I know, prior to 4.0, there was none
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Taran Zhu knows NOTHING about the Horde or Alliance.

What he knows is "These jackasses showed up at my house and started fighting, broke my TV, pissed on the furniture, sh*t on the carpet, and wiped their asses with the curtains."

Taran Zhu's reaction was 100% rational and quite frankly the only sane reaction


Yeah. Maybe he'd say something different if someone sat him down for a month-long history lesson on the history of the Alliance and Horde, but he didn't have that. He saw a bunch of newcomers threatening to destabilize the continent and reacted accordingly.
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90 Orc Death Knight
3195
Taran Zhu knows NOTHING about the Horde or Alliance.

What he knows is "These jackasses showed up at my house and started fighting, broke my TV, pissed on the furniture, sh*t on the carpet, and wiped their asses with the curtains."

Taran Zhu's reaction was 100% rational and quite frankly the only sane reaction


Yeah. Maybe he'd say something different if someone sat him down for a month-long history lesson on the history of the Alliance and Horde, but he didn't have that. He saw a bunch of newcomers threatening to destabilize the continent and reacted accordingly.


Even then, his ignorance of the history doesn't negate his point: That Pandaria would be better off as Horde territory. I mean, left right alone.

Ahem...

*slinks towards the door*
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85 Human Mage
4460
Hrmn... lots of interesting points here. I'd like to add a few for consideration.

1) Daelin didn't fight the Orcs just because they were Orcs. He actually voted to -spare- them from genocide after the Second War, despite having personally lost his son to them. He fought the Orcs because they violated their punishment, killed men and women of the Alliance (soldiers and civilians) and -stole- Alliance ships to escape justice. Finding them on a new land with a large, growing settlement, after all that, can bode well -how-?

2) The Horde didn't come to Pandaria to conquer it. They came to Pandaria for the same reason the Alliance did; Anduin. Kind of makes me facepalm that Blizzard has set him up to be some Holy Child (Tvtropes, woo!). Anyways, the point here is that both sides came to Pandaria for the same reason, and once arrived, their agendas changed. The Horde seeks to conquer it for its resources, and the Alliance seeks to prevent that. Due to their small numbers, the Horde isn't taking a, 'Kill all the natives and take everything,' approach, but is instead trying to bolster their forces with the natives. Due to this, its impossible for any native races to see a great difference between the Alliance and the Horde initially. Only through time will they be able to see the differences, and by then it will be too late.

3) The Horde really -does- need some individuals to stand up and show its still worth redemption, pretty badly. Tauren Sunwalkers are a good start, but it needs more. Doesn't it have at least -one- Shaman who didn't join the Earthen Ring who isn't a Dark Shaman? Heck, why not a Blood Elf, give them some screentime? A troll would also be welcome, though I imagine once we get to the Zandalari, they'll take center stage anyways and show the Horde is worth redemption, or that at least they aren't of the same mold as Garrosh.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
09/26/2012 06:56 AMPosted by Elenie
2) The Horde didn't come to Pandaria to conquer it. They came to Pandaria for the same reason the Alliance did; Anduin.


The Horde cutscene shows exactly why the Horde is on Pandaria. The found it by chasing Anduin, but they are there to conquer it. Or as Gaqrrosh out it, 'paint the continent red'. The Horde is there for open conquest, plain and simple.
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85 Human Mage
4460
09/26/2012 07:33 AMPosted by Kynrind
2) The Horde didn't come to Pandaria to conquer it. They came to Pandaria for the same reason the Alliance did; Anduin.


The Horde cutscene shows exactly why the Horde is on Pandaria. The found it by chasing Anduin, but they are there to conquer it. Or as Gaqrrosh out it, 'paint the continent red'. The Horde is there for open conquest, plain and simple.


After they found it, yeah. Doesn't change the fact they came to Pandaria looking for Anduin one jot. And Like I said, the natives won't be able to tell the Horde and the Alliance apart immediately, because the Horde needs allies more than it needs enemies with the small numbers they have there. If they had access to the greater might of the Horde, I've no doubt they'd try to kill and enslave the inhabitants and take their lands and resources by force, but they don't have that access.

Granted you think there'd be a difference between the Alliance's supposed mistreatment of volunteers and the Horde's taking hostage of Panda children and keeping them guarded by demons...
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420


The Horde cutscene shows exactly why the Horde is on Pandaria. The found it by chasing Anduin, but they are there to conquer it. Or as Gaqrrosh out it, 'paint the continent red'. The Horde is there for open conquest, plain and simple.


After they found it, yeah. Doesn't change the fact they came to Pandaria looking for Anduin one jot. And Like I said, the natives won't be able to tell the Horde and the Alliance apart immediately, because the Horde needs allies more than it needs enemies with the small numbers they have there. If they had access to the greater might of the Horde, I've no doubt they'd try to kill and enslave the inhabitants and take their lands and resources by force, but they don't have that access.

Granted you think there'd be a difference between the Alliance's supposed mistreatment of volunteers and the Horde's taking hostage of Panda children and keeping them guarded by demons...


You were making it seem like they came to Pandaria just to find Anduin and that the conquest of the land is a side effect. The Horde only found it by chasing a royal ship. They had no idea who was on it. Once Garrosh knew about the land, the conquest became -the- reason for being there. If the Horde had found the land without chasing Anduin, Garrosh would have reacted the same way.
Edited by Kynrind on 9/26/2012 8:56 AM PDT
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85 Human Mage
4460
You were making it seem like they came to Pandaria just to find Anduin and that the conquest of the land is a side effect. The Horde only found it by chasing a royal ship. They had no idea who was on it. Once Garrosh knew about the land, the conquest became -the- reason for being there. If the Horde had found the land without chasing Anduin, Garrosh would have reacted the same way.


All agreed. I think we're arguing on something we agree upon again. The Horde wants to Conquer Pandaria now. Or rather, Garrosh does. As for the Alliance, it'd be nice if they were shown to want something to do with Pandaria other than finding Anduin or stopping the Horde from taking it. Just makes us foils to the Horde all the more. Why should we fight to protect the Panda's lands? We've got our own to worry about.
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100 Tauren Druid
9580
09/26/2012 09:17 AMPosted by Elenie
it'd be nice if they were shown to want something to do with Pandaria other than finding Anduin or stopping the Horde from taking it. Just makes us foils to the Horde all the more. Why should we fight to protect the Panda's lands? We've got our own to worry about.


And this goes back to the problem of asking for an entirely different storyline. The entire premise for this expansion is the war of the Horde vs. the Alliance -- Blizzard has stated as such. Aside from being friends I don't think the Alliance WANTS anything from Pandaria.

And that's the point. One can argue that the Alliance is the foil for the Horde, but it works both ways. The Horde and the Alliance need each other for this story line. It's (another) case of the Horde expanding its borders through conquest and another case of the Alliance being the "good guys" and pushing back against them, trying to stop the Red Spread (tm).

Think about it -- why does the Horde give a flying fig about Pandaria? "To conquer it!" is what I've seen.... but why do they need to conquer it? (EDIT: Sorry, realized this last sentence didn't sound as rhetorical as it was meant to be.. the point is the Horde is here to conquer Pandaria because of the Alliance, both because they've facilitated the Horde's discovery of this new land and because the Horde needs resources to continue fighting the Alliance.)
Edited by Bullcowsby on 9/26/2012 9:27 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
I'm sorry, but you people seem to be missing the point. The motivation doesn't matter. The emotions running through these soldiers does. A lot of these people feel fear, anger, and hatred. In cata the Alliance has been complaining that we aren't angry enough, that we have people like Hawthorne being too merciful.

This isn't Tirion, Malfurion, the Naaru, or Thrall telling us to put aside our differences to fight the larger enemy or for peace. This is a native telling us he doesn't want our crap messing up his home. He doesn't want these creatures spawning. What if Varian gets here and fears for his son? Doubts that he won't find him? Gets angry at the Horde? Hates the Horde? And we can all imagine the emotions Garrosh will experience here.

This is the one neutral I like so far in this story. He's not advocating peace. He's telling us to get out. Before we get innocent Pandaren killed. There's a woman in the Paw'don village who's upset that her husband was killed in the crossfire. Collateral damage. It happens in war.

This is Alien vs Predator right now.
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09/25/2012 11:32 PMPosted by Mordstreich
No reason to be afraid, doubtful, or angry. No mercy for the merciless, it is that simple. It need not be heated an passionate, but cold and detached.


There's still the Shas of Violence, Despair and Hatred. If those guys can't corrupt you, those three will.

I think a lot of people are underestimating the sheer power the Sha have over negative emotions on Pandaria. Even Taran Zhu said, emotions left unchecked can and will have dire consequences, which I hope we'll see the full effect of come the subsequent patches.

And no, unfortunately, you can't exactly expect to keep your emotions in check, especially when you're fighting a heated war against an enemy whom you long to crush completely and utterly, on either side.

And this is where Taran Zhu is coming from. You have two factions of foreigners coming in and setting up outposts and bloody battles against each other, feeding the Sha with their emotions, and generally wrecking everything without any regard to your culture and the prime beauty of his land, and how the land works. Not to mention we're acting pretty arrogant ourselves, demanding loyalty from the natives and acting pushy (though the Alliance goes a lot nicer about doing it).

Yeah. Maybe he'd say something different if someone sat him down for a month-long history lesson on the history of the Alliance and Horde, but he didn't have that. He saw a bunch of newcomers threatening to destabilize the continent and reacted accordingly.


I doubt that. In fact, I think learning about us and our histories would only make him more resolved about us leaving and going on to wreck our own lands and wiping each other out. His job is to protect Pandaria, and frankly? We're pretty much endangering Pandaria with our war. He has no reason to side with anyone.
Edited by Briswald on 9/26/2012 9:45 AM PDT
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90 Dwarf Warrior
14765
Taran Zhu's initial reaction is understandable, if annoying. However, if he learns that the Horde invaded Pandaria first, that the Horde's leader has a stated desire to wipe out the other races, that the Horde started the war, and he still continues the neutral finger wagging, I'm going to want his head on a pike.
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85 Human Mage
4460
EDIT: Sorry, realized this last sentence didn't sound as rhetorical as it was meant to be.. the point is the Horde is here to conquer Pandaria because of the Alliance, both because they've facilitated the Horde's discovery of this new land and because the Horde needs resources to continue fighting the Alliance


The problem here is that one of the Horde's goals -isn't- a foil to the Alliance; they need resources. Arguably they need it to continue fighting the Alliance, but they need resources regardless. That Renaissance I've been talking about for the Alliance? Garrosh is trying to make that happen for the Horde. He wants to build a whole new city in Ashenvale, to improve the quality of life for the Horde, to make it stronger and more powerful, etc... The Alliance stands in his way because they had the resources he needed to make it happen.

Garrosh's leadership pushed the Horde into the war. If we'd found Pandaria -before- the war began, there might not have been a war. He might have just took all he needed from the Pandas. All he'd have to do is start a war with them, and the Alliance would have no reason to fight them unless the Panda's came to them for help and joined the Alliance, which would only push an entire continent and its resources into the Alliance's hands, which puts the Horde right back at square one.

Ultimately, Garrosh wanted more resources to make the Horde greater, to improve the quality of life, etc... He went about it in a pig-headed way, and now needs those resources to not lose, rather than improve the Horde.

The Alliance doesn't need resources, because it has them. It makes use of them wisely. There are logging operations in Elwynn Forest, yet there is still a forest. There are mines in Ironforge and Dun Morogh, and they haven't been stripped clean.

The question becomes, what does the Alliance -need-, and why should the Horde have it so that there -can- be a reason for Conflict? Part of that problem is the Alliance is so diverse it has many smaller needs rather than a larger, over-arching need as the Horde has. -All- the Horde needs resources, every member-state. No such need has been created for the Alliance. What -could- it need? We've defaulted to needing to protect ourselves, which is entirely dependent upon there being a threat to us, which is where the Horde comes in.

It may be an endless circle, but the Circle couldn't exist until it was drawn, and there is always -one- point on the paper where the pen/pencil first touches down to draw that circle.
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