The Alliance Deserves Better than This

09/26/2012 01:49 PMPosted by Elenie
Its at times like these I really wish Blizzard had just made a non-faction game in terms of mechanics... The factional conflict is contrived. Its forced. Its bland. Its ruined the factions.


It's the reason I currently love Starcraft.

If they ever create a Protoss x Zerg WoS, I'm staying the hell away from it.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
[quote]

No. Tyrande was the leader. The achievement, or lack there of doesn't mean she isn't. Malfurion isn't target-able. He only showed up in game at the end of Wrath. It wouldn't make any sense to make Malfurion the leader either.


Well, now Tyrande is the leader, what with her being the only one there. And it would make a lot of sense for Malfurion to be the leader, except of course that he has to be neutral instead. For some reason.


Why would it make sense for Malfurion to be the Night elven leader? He has done more for the world than he has ever done for the Night elves. He could really care less about them. His concerns have been the world, nature and to a lesser degree, Tyrande and the Night elves.

Honestly, the druid theme in the Night elves has been pushed too much in WoW. Especially in Cata. Blizzard screwed the pooch when they kept pushing Malfurion as the leader instead of Tyrande. In between their pushed to strip the Night elves and the Alliance of the themes that made them unique.

This is kind of why I'd love to see a shift in Night Elven culture as the druids come to be reviled for their position, and the Highborne (mostly to make a great contrast) come to popularity and reverence for their efforts in protecting their kin. Its a reverse of the cultural climate prior to the War of the Ancients in which the Highborne acted high and mighty, above the cares of the average person, living far above where such concerns were laughable. Now its the Druids who are acting like that on their Mount Olympus (Hyjal).

If/when Malfurion realizes his mistaken, it'd force the Druids to realize their sins, and leave them with an option; abandon their people, their culture, their civilization, and all they've held dear to continue being nature's whipping boys, or realize that their people are as much a part of nature as the squirrels and the trees, and do as much to help a night elf child trapped in a fire as they did for baby deer.


I can get behind that. The only difference is I'd have the Highborne be more tolerated and accepted than really popular. Especially if they can replace a lot of what the druids did do for the Night elves, with their magic. But the druids definitely need to be knocked off their high horses and Malfurion receive a kick in the crotch to wake him up (and -remove= him from the Kaldorei leadership position).
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09/26/2012 02:32 PMPosted by Kynrind
He has done more for the world than he has ever done for the Night elves.


The Night Elves are in the world, IIRC. Hence, everything he does for the greater good of Azeroth is also benefiting the Night Elves.

I mean, I understand the gripe about how he acted in Cata, I've voiced it, but can we please stop bashing the character?

09/26/2012 02:32 PMPosted by Kynrind
Honestly, the druid theme in the Night elves has been pushed too much in WoW. Especially in Cata.


I don't think so.

You see, Druidism IS a Night Elven theme. I can already see that you'll bring up the Sisterhood of Elune, but bear with me.:

The Night Elves always have been Elune worshipers. Ever since they were Dark Trolls, even before they found the Well. It's their most defining thing. However, between the finding of the Well and the Sundering, they built other defining trait - Arcane magic. It was part of they were, it was what helped them to conquer most of Kalimdor.

However, the War of the Ancients stripped them from it. They began to see Arcane Magic as an evil thing - Or at best as an unpredictable, dangerous thing. A huge part of their culture was torn out. Also, their very way to live: They built cities and monuments, they expanded, they conquered. Most of this mindset was associated with Azshara and Arcane magic. When they left Arcane magic behind they were at a loss of what to do.

Druidism gave them a way. Druidism gave them a new reason, a new identity, even. Moon worship was part of they were, since the beginning, but druidism was what they picked up after they left Magic behind. It's what sets them apart from the Azshara days.

Maybe I'm not being clear why, and a proper explanation will have to wait for later, but I don't think druids are a small part of Nelven culture, no.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
The Night Elves are in the world, IIRC. Hence, everything he does for the greater good of Azeroth is also benefiting the Night Elves.

I mean, I understand the gripe about how he acted in Cata, I've voiced it, but can we please stop bashing the character?


He's made decisions on his own, without taking the time to discuss it with the woman who has led the Night elves, the woman who has been around, guiding and caring for her people for 10,000 years, while he has been off in the Emerald Dream for decades to millennium at a time. Those decisions removed immortality for the Night elves (granted, he had a very short time to make the decision, but it still affected -all- Night elves), then he, on his own authority, refuses to let Nozdormu give the Night elves immortality again because he feels they have grown too distant from it. He didn't ask Tyrande about it it even if she thought it was a good idea. He flat out said 'No', because he thought the Night elves were not connected to the world.

Then he goes off and becomes even more disconnected than he was claiming the Night elves were.

I don't think so.

You see, Druidism IS a Night Elven theme. I can already see that you'll bring up the Sisterhood of Elune, but bear with me.:

The Night Elves always have been Elune worshipers. Ever since they were Dark Trolls, even before they found the Well. It's their most defining thing. However, between the finding of the Well and the Sundering, they built other defining trait - Arcane magic. It was part of they were, it was what helped them to conquer most of Kalimdor.

However, the War of the Ancients stripped them from it. They began to see Arcane Magic as an evil thing - Or at best as an unpredictable, dangerous thing. A huge part of their culture was torn out. Also, their very way to live: They built cities and monuments, they expanded, they conquered. Most of this mindset was associated with Azshara and Arcane magic. When they left Arcane magic behind they were at a loss of what to do.

Druidism gave them a way. Druidism gave them a new reason, a new identity, even. Moon worship was part of they were, since the beginning, but druidism was what they picked up after they left Magic behind. It's what sets them apart from the Azshara days.

Maybe I'm not being clear why, and a proper explanation will have to wait for later, but I don't think druids are a small part of Nelven culture, no.


It is -a- theme, but Blizzard has been pushing it as the only theme for awhile now, especially in Cata. If a player started playing a Night elf now, they would end up thinking that the druids are the ones that run everything and that the Sisters of Elune and the Sentinels answer to the druids.

Druidism helped them make a new society, but it was never the main focus of that society. Druids never had -any- say in the government and even the patron of the Circle didn't want anything to do with running the Night elves.

The main focus of the Night elves culture and society though was worship of Elune, living their lives and protecting their lands. All druids did was make that easier. Druidism is a small part of the culture, mostly because druids have little to do with the society as a whole. Hell, there was never that many druids to begin with.

It was the Sisters of Elune and the Sentinels that guided and protected the Night elves over the millennium.
Edited by Kynrind on 9/26/2012 3:12 PM PDT
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87 Human Paladin
12430
09/26/2012 01:49 PMPosted by Elenie
Its at times like these I really wish Blizzard had just made a non-faction game in terms of mechanics... The factional conflict is contrived. Its forced. Its bland. Its ruined the factions.


I'm actually pretty willing to just agree with this, especially after playing GW2 on and off.
Edited by Talendras on 9/26/2012 4:06 PM PDT
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The Alliance does deserve better. We deserve far better than the trash-talk we get *in game* from the NPCs.

I've just played through & completed the opening scenarios, up through rescuing the Pandarien children (who are being kidnapped as Horde pets) and killing the demons in that stronghold. And at the end of it, after I've rescued those children and killed the demons -- I get trash-talked by a Panda master, berating Rell for bringing "genocide" to their shores.

Excuse me, Mr. Panda? Who was it kidnapping your children? Who was it summoning the demons? And from what my little panda monk saw -- who was it who sent me out to collect explosives & blow a giant hole in your turtle? And you call *Alliance* genocidal?

Fine, Panda Master. The Horde can have you, and pray the Light you never see the Scourge hit your shores as they did Southshore. I'll go level via dungeons & killing things.

Yeah. Now I want the gnomes to build our own nuke and go after Ogrimmar. Or the dwarves to unleash the Titan tech on the Horde. Prior to this expansion, I was anti-PVP, I was a fairly peaceful player, with no issues towards the Horde (until I played thru Gilneas and saw what happened in Southshore...and...now? Wipe them off the map, save only the Tauren...who I think are sticking with the Horde just to try to reign them in and bring them back to peace.

Metzen needs to actually play Alliance and get reacquainted with the stories. There's TONS of issues and coolness possible, if he'd bother to look.
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86 Undead Hunter
5025
09/26/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Arugadh
Who was it kidnapping your children?


Funny, I remember saving a dozen Panda adults AND children that were being forced into slave labor to build an Alliance base.

who was it who sent me out to collect explosives & blow a giant hole in your turtle?


You would rather the turtle died? Good to know.
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90 Undead Priest
2870
09/26/2012 07:17 AMPosted by Elenie
I think you nailed it. A good way to remedy this might be to return to more of a "gray vs. gray" attitude, which would allow both factions to do antagonistic things without becoming completely villainous.


The issue here is the same issue you see with people jumping off the bridge with the, 'High King,' threads. No one wants to see a Blue Horde or a Red Alliance. People want unique, different factions, who are different, full of differences, and differ.



Oh, I very much agree! I think, however, that they can remain distinct while still being gray. There should be some misdeeds that the Alliance will do, that the Horde will not, and vice versa. Each faction sins in the ways particular to its culture and politics.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
4320
09/26/2012 01:26 PMPosted by Torvald
So, in conclusion, I am very sorry for your loss OP. I know the loss of Theramore is devastating, even though the time you spent in it and Dustwallow Marsh is probably somewhere on the order of 0.00001 and 0.0001% of your WoW time, if we're generous (I do not count any time you spent in Onyxia's Lair, only time you spent in the zone proper). Personally, I think Theramore is a small price to pay for the Alliance to wise up and actually remember the purpose of their "Alliance." (Hint: It's not to wait around a hundred years for the next Burning Legion or Old God plot, it's to stop the imminent threat the Horde represents to their people).


Theramore was special. Speaking of vanilla, when I first for to Theramore (which I was surprised wasn't the human starting zone; there was no mention of Stormwind's existence in War 3) I was amazed it wasn't bigger and more populous. In war 3 it was portrayed as Durotar's equal and counterpart in many ways; the Human/Dwarf/High Elf veterans of Mount Hyjal settled there and the Orc/Troll/Tauren veterans went to Durotar. Well, and Mulgore.

It was portrayed that all of Eastern Kingdoms was lost and Theramore WAS the Alliance. That portrayal has changed, but still: Theramore was special!

As for my dig at Horde players: don't take it as an attempt at plumbing the depths of insult. My Wife plays Horde for heaven's sake. But I do mean to undermine this absurd pride some people have about being horde players, and the notion that they're tougher than Ally players because their characters are. Some people need a 7-foot-tall character with tusks and a black leather jacket because they're compensating for something. Not all, but some.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
09/26/2012 05:27 PMPosted by Mormin
Funny, I remember saving a dozen Panda adults AND children that were being forced into slave labor to build an Alliance base.


Thanks to the Sha.

With the Horde, they didn't even look like they were being influenced by the Sha. It looked like it was just another regular day. Hell, they were Warlocks and Forsaken. They didn't even need the Sha.
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90 Human Warrior
5335
09/26/2012 06:51 PMPosted by Maenas
But I do mean to undermine this absurd pride some people have about being horde players, and the notion that they're tougher than Ally players because their characters are. Some people need a 7-foot-tall character with tusks and a black leather jacket because they're compensating for something. Not all, but some.


Really? There's something about this paragraph that reminds me of a kettle and a pot....can't put my finger on it though
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
The Alliance does deserve better. We deserve far better than the trash-talk we get *in game* from the NPCs.

I've just played through & completed the opening scenarios, up through rescuing the Pandarien children (who are being kidnapped as Horde pets) and killing the demons in that stronghold. And at the end of it, after I've rescued those children and killed the demons -- I get trash-talked by a Panda master, berating Rell for bringing "genocide" to their shores.

Excuse me, Mr. Panda? Who was it kidnapping your children? Who was it summoning the demons? And from what my little panda monk saw -- who was it who sent me out to collect explosives & blow a giant hole in your turtle? And you call *Alliance* genocidal?

Fine, Panda Master. The Horde can have you, and pray the Light you never see the Scourge hit your shores as they did Southshore. I'll go level via dungeons & killing things.


He was a douchebag, but it's okay for a character to be a douchebag. I mean, unlike NPCs in the past, this guy knows nothing about the Horde and the Alliance and he's not telling us to work together despite our differences. He's telling us to take the fight elsewhere and he isn't parsing his words.

There's alot of little story books and quest lines in Pandaeria and they've been varied enough that I don't really get the sense I'm being preached to. Except in the case of the Hozen who act like jerks to everyone, but it's cool because they're driven by their strong emotions and strong emotions are a good thing...on Pandaeria? I can't help but think the Hozen are a menace and aren't worth the trouble aside from the fact that it'd be quite troublesome to exterminate them.
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He's made decisions on his own, without taking the time to discuss it with the woman who has led the Night elves, the woman who has been around, guiding and caring for her people for 10,000 years, while he has been off in the Emerald Dream for decades to millennium at a time. Those decisions removed immortality for the Night elves (granted, he had a very short time to make the decision, but it still affected -all- Night elves), then he, on his own authority, refuses to let Nozdormu give the Night elves immortality again because he feels they have grown too distant from it. He didn't ask Tyrande about it it even if she thought it was a good idea. He flat out said 'No', because he thought the Night elves were not connected to the world. Then he goes off and becomes even more disconnected than he was claiming the Night elves were.


One, his decisions didn't remove immortality from the Night Elves. They had lost their immortality already, for... Seven, eight years, is it? And have been doing that ever since. They also weren't immortal to begin with, "merely" long-lived.

Two, since he has been, you known, in what is essentially the soul of the natural world, I believe he has the cognitive authority to make that call.

Three, Nozdormu obviously agree, since he asked Malfurion, directly, and never searched for a second opinion. Considering that he probably is aware of all possible alternatives to that answer, well...

09/26/2012 03:08 PMPosted by Kynrind
Druidism helped them make a new society, but it was never the main focus of that society. Druids never had -any- say in the government and even the patron of the Circle didn't want anything to do with running the Night elves.


Except it did was the main focus, yes, and they had a hand in the government. Malfurion exiled Illidan. Malfurion exiled the Dath'Remar's Highborne. Malfurion led the war against Xavius.

And the Night Elven focus on the woods, the natural word, the ancients et coetera is born of the Druids' reverence for it. Before, they lived in cities and where a magi-scientific culture not that different from, say, Dalaran. Druids have a LOT to do with the way current nIght Elven society operates. Even the bit about defending their homeland, normally associated with Sentinels - A huge part of it is their charge to protect Nordrassil, Hyjal, where it sits, and the neighboring lands. Nordrassil was born, mainly, of Malfurion's appeal to the Ancients and Dragonflights to give them a way to neuter Illidan's second Well.

Theramore was special. Speaking of vanilla, when I first for to Theramore (which I was surprised wasn't the human starting zone; there was no mention of Stormwind's existence in War 3) I was amazed it wasn't bigger and more populous. In war 3 it was portrayed as Durotar's equal and counterpart in many ways; the Human/Dwarf/High Elf veterans of Mount Hyjal settled there and the Orc/Troll/Tauren veterans went to Durotar. Well, and Mulgore.It was portrayed that all of Eastern Kingdoms was lost and Theramore WAS the Alliance. That portrayal has changed, but still: Theramore was special!


There's a huge disconnect between WCIII and Vanilla WoW Alliance-side, yes. Varian Wrynn wasn't mentioned at all in WCIII - Nor Fordragon, actually. Nor King Magni. Lordaeron, from WCIII, was a Horde zone. Theramore was treated as a quest hub instead of the capital it was described as in WCIII. Gnomes weren't even part of the lore, damn it!
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
09/26/2012 01:26 PMPosted by Torvald
Personally, I think Theramore is a small price to pay for the Alliance to wise up and actually remember the purpose of their "Alliance." (Hint: It's not to wait around a hundred years for the next Burning Legion or Old God plot, it's to stop the imminent threat the Horde represents to their people).


I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. Nothing personal though, because it's the same nonsense the devs are pushing. The Alliance had plenty of incentives already. This idea that they were just sitting on their hands and shrugging over Gilneas and Silverwing but only now, after Theramore, do they feel like getting serious, is just absurd. Especially when you consider that Varian was more than ready to declare all-out war as far back as Wrathgate.
Edited by Lyrtes on 9/26/2012 11:05 PM PDT
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86 Undead Hunter
5025
09/26/2012 07:02 PMPosted by Vyrin
Funny, I remember saving a dozen Panda adults AND children that were being forced into slave labor to build an Alliance base.


Thanks to the Sha.

With the Horde, they didn't even look like they were being influenced by the Sha. It looked like it was just another regular day. Hell, they were Warlocks and Forsaken. They didn't even need the Sha.


That was only the Human leader who was confirmed to be affected by the Sha. No other Alliance soldier showed any signs of Sha corruption, but each and every one of them happily enslaved Panda children to build their fortress.
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86 Undead Hunter
5025
09/26/2012 11:04 PMPosted by Lyrtes
Especially when you consider that Varian was more than ready to declare all-out war as far back as Wrathgate.


Correction: He DID declare all out war as far back as Wrathgate.
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
Indeed. But no, only NOW he's ready to get serious. Not when he invaded the Barrens and Lordaeron, but NOW. Those invasions? Just a side project, no big deal, nothing serious, certainly nothing to call a war.
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7 Blood Elf Priest
0
09/26/2012 09:04 AMPosted by Grenesh
If it's any consolation, I've been going through Pandaria as my orc and my draenei, and on the Horde side I feel...bad.


Good, because you deserve it.

Do you know how bad I felt watching Sentinel Hill burn? Watching Redridge be torn apart? To accomplish nothing in Duskwood, Swamp of Sorrows, anywhere?!

And as soon as I rerolled Horde, I was the big hero. I saved the day, every day. I was personally given missions by Sylvanas herself; and later, commended by her. I bombed villages, sabotaged fortresses, killed in the name of the Horde and I won.

As Alliance, everything I did set my people back. I'm responsible for the destruction in Westfall.

As Horde, I'm responsible for the capture of the Stonetalons.

And now you're upset that you can't just save the day?! That you can't swoop in and everything go just right for you!? All I can say is you best get used to it; it sure ain't our time to shine, but it's about time you got your !@#$ slapped too.

Addendum: You wanna know another "slap in the face" as the cliche goes? I played a worgen. Not only does the Horde get the story of an Alliance race, I get shipped off to Night Elf land and see maybe two of my fellow Gilneans (unless I go to EK instead, where they have two towns with a handful of people apiece). Blizzard didn't even bother to make the "Gilnean" druids in Hyjal use the Gilnean voices.
Edited by Noirdawn on 9/27/2012 1:42 PM PDT
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90 Human Death Knight
6980
I would love to see the Alliance start a scorched earth approach towards defense.

If we can't have it then no one can. Want all that wood? We will set fire to the entire forest on our way out. You need food to feed your people? We will burn and salt the earth, and cover it in toxic waste to be sure.

If the Horde is going to win, then I say we take those bastards with us.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5780
09/27/2012 01:29 PMPosted by Noirdawn
If it's any consolation, I've been going through Pandaria as my orc and my draenei, and on the Horde side I feel...bad.


Good, because you deserve it.

Do you know how bad I felt watching Sentinel Hill burn? Watching Redridge be torn apart? To accomplish nothing in Duskwood, Swamp of Sorrows, anywhere?!

And as soon as I rerolled Horde, I was the big hero. I saved the day, every day. I was personally given missions by Sylvanas herself; and later, commended by her. I bombed villages, sabotaged fortresses, killed in the name of the Horde and I won.

As Alliance, everything I did set my people back. I'm responsible for the destruction in Westfall.

As Horde, I'm responsible for the capture of the Stonetalons.

And now you're upset that you can't just save the day?! That you can't swoop in and everything go just right for you!? All I can say is you best get used to it; it sure ain't our time to shine, but it's about time you got your !@#$ slapped too.

Addendum: You wanna know another "slap in the face" as the cliche goes? I played a worgen. Not only does the Horde get the story of an Alliance race, I get shipped off to Night Elf land and see maybe two of my fellow Gilneans (unless I go to EK instead, where they have two towns with a handful of people apiece). Blizzard didn't even bother to make the "Gilnean" druids in Hyjal use the Gilnean voices.


I would love to see the Alliance start a scorched earth approach towards defense.

If we can't have it then no one can. Want all that wood? We will set fire to the entire forest on our way out. You need food to feed your people? We will burn and salt the earth, and cover it in toxic waste to be sure.

If the Horde is going to win, then I say we take those bastards with us.


Those are both incredibly bad attitudes to take.
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