Level 90 talents

90 Undead Mage
11335
The lvl 90 talents are just annoying to use. Quite a few issues with Mages at the moment.

RoP is manageable on fights without a lot of movement. It's the easiest to keep track of because *visually* it's right there. You know when RoP starts to fade because you see it. It's a constant, as long as you are standing in RoP you passively gain it's effects. The problem with RoP is that it's quite small. If any target AoE is lobbed your' way and covers your' RoP you must cast a new one. Usually you must move first (losing damage) then recast RoP (still not doing damage). Generally the best bet is to strafe as little as possible, RoP, or blink then drop a RoP. This ability is annoying to use in dungeons because you are continually casting RoP before every pull.

I can't stress enough what a chore it is to cast Invocation/RoP before every damn trash pull. Its' really draining a lot of fun out of the class for me which is sad as someone who's played a Mage almost exclusively since 2 weeks of Vanilla launch. I clearly enjoy the class *a lot* and have been around for a host of changes. Other classes have active/instant speed cool-down abilities they use during the fight. I was just in a heroic dungeon with a demo warlock who did about 80-90k+ on trash packs we were clearing using his CDS in combat. He didn't have it up for every pack...but he used it in combat.

Obviously you will have to lose damage sometimes with the lvl 90 talents and how much damage you lose depends partially on player skill and RNG. The way they are implemented currently makes playing a mage optimally tedious.

I haven't worked with Incanter's Shield much. Basically I could see it being usable on some fights where there's periodic AoE. There are plenty of dungeon/raid fights where you'll take damage no matter what. Other fights- you should not be taking damage. If you take damage...it's because you stood in it purposely to trigger Incanters or were bad.

Incanter's shield honestly feels like the obvious 'PvP lvl 90 talent'. It's another damage shield for PvP. You must move around continually as a mage in PvP (this has always been the case). No serious PvP mage is going to run RoP. Invocation is another ability that just screams..."PLEASE PUMMEL ME SO I CAN'T BLINK AND DONT GET 25% DAMAGE THX". Like honestly...what mongoloid wouldn't focus interrupt an Invocating Mage? The shield at least has a pretty good chance that it'll break. Mages are often the train target because if you don't train the mage...it will have more free reign to set-up burst and CC.

Invocation could be a lot less frustrating in PvE (for me personally) if the development team had listened to people's QoL complains about Invocation and for that matter the entire Arcane spec. It's a fact that people complained about Invocation's buff visibility on the beta forums, and also the issue of Arcane Charges only to have the WoW development team do nothing.

Basically....the buff indicating that you have Invocation is displayed in the top right hand corner of your' screen. There's no central buff/indicator on your' character like there is for hot-steak and other talents. Nothing changes visually unlike RoP or Incanter's shield. Both of those abilities visually 'fade' before they terminate. I find myself constantly looking between my on use cool-downs for normal abilities...Ie. Frostbomb/Icelance/FFB procs/Pet Freeze/Frozen Orb/Alter time etc...and also trying to watch Invocation's buff which is not centralized with everything else. I will probably end up getting a mod to track invocation or something I can use to move the buff icon.

It'd be nice if the development team listened to players QoL complaints about stuff like this. This isn't even a matter of not liking the concept...or not liking how it feels when you play it. Those are both other separate and valid issues. We couldn't even get a visual indicator change (which they've done for other class abilities). Invocation is a 25% damage spread...I guarantee you if the WoW devs don't roll something out....there will be a mod that tracks Invocation and gives a visual indicator (not off in the corner) as to when it's about to fade
(5-6 second warning). We'll see it in some guild's raid kill video.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
09/28/2012 07:47 PMPosted by Phöbös
They simply deny any mobility of the Fire spec, except for IW.


The talents don't reduce your mobility. You're just as mobile as you ever were. They do increase the difference between the damage you can deal while mobile and the damage you can deal while stationary, and that's part of their intended purpose. The developers feel that many ranged specs were able to deal too much mobile damage, and have made an effort to scale it back.
________________________________________________
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90 Human Mage
16305
I completely agree, I just started running heroics, finished 3 so far, and I have to say all 3 of these level 90 talents feel lackluster. Not only that, as others have mentioned it feels more like a chore using them, then the talents actually being fun as they should be. I find it really sad all three of these made it through beta honestly, pretty bad job.
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90 Troll Mage
10660
Personally dislike. Not fun to use, doesn't feel new or epic.
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90 Gnome Mage
9665
I'm a noob mage. I have crap for timely achievements. I'm not a theorycrafter. I'd like to think I'm middle of the pack as far as how well I play mage, but that's probably stretching it.

WITH THAT SAID

I'd like to see RoP have a little bigger radius, and when you stand on it, you get a buff that stacks up to....lets say 5 times. If you move out of RoP, your buff begins to drop off, one stack every....2 seconds maybe? Increases by the same rate while standing in it, up to max. Perhaps increase the CD of RoP to 10/12 seconds.

Apologies if someones already suggested something similar, I had to beat my head against the wall after reading the first 6 pages, and i skipped to this response.
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90 Human Mage
8135
09/26/2012 03:45 PMPosted by Jkspiritlink
do you not like having 40% damage buffs? Why do you find dealing 40% extra damage annoying.


You aren't doing 40% more damage. You are doing the damage mages were balanced around. There is no comparative "buff" from any of the talents whatsoever. If mages and warriors are comparable in DPS, it will be after the mage maintains his invoke/ward/rune, but the warrior won't need to deal with that annoyance. and none of them are practical for a typical raiding situation. Sorry but these talents were absolute failures.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
09/29/2012 07:02 AMPosted by Garithel
do you not like having 40% damage buffs? Why do you find dealing 40% extra damage annoying.


You aren't doing 40% more damage. You are doing the damage mages were balanced around. There is no comparative "buff" from any of the talents whatsoever.


See my posts upthread for an explanation of why this is wrong.
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90 Draenei Shaman
7730
Incanter's shield honestly feels like the obvious 'PvP lvl 90 talent'. It's another damage shield for PvP. You must move around continually as a mage in PvP (this has always been the case). No serious PvP mage is going to run RoP. Invocation is another ability that just screams..."PLEASE PUMMEL ME SO I CAN'T BLINK AND DONT GET 25% DAMAGE THX". Like honestly...what mongoloid wouldn't focus interrupt an Invocating Mage? The shield at least has a pretty good chance that it'll break. Mages are often the train target because if you don't train the mage...it will have more free reign to set-up burst and CC.


tbh, i think all three talents are very appealing to pvp. If you play with a lock, keep RoP at each Demonic Gateway end. You port across the map, retain ROP buff. you port back retain RoP buff still.

Invocation is going to be absolutely deadly for RMP openers. start channeling evo 4 seconds before gates open. Gates open, Evo ends, Inivis! and Do what RMP openers are known to do, BUT with super ridiculous invocation buff.

Considering MLS/RMP and variants have been our go-to comps for several seasons i think RoP and invo will be used.

And i mean, there are obviously more times to use them. ROP will be great for small maps like Dal Sewers. put it behind the boxes and be a jerk. The abilities for PVP are really only limited by your creativity.
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90 Human Mage
0
I'd like to see them add a graphical change alongside invocation. It's annoying watching the timer on it to tell when it's about to drop off. How about when you have the buff, it turns the outside edges of your screen blue?
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90 Troll Mage
10690
I started to hate my mage after I hit lv 90, thanks to this talents. Having to evocate every 40 seconds to do competitive damage against other classes? ugh, terrible. It take all the fun part of being a mage, way too much downtime, nothing excited. This has to be redone I dont really understand how these talents made it through the beta.
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90 Gnome Mage
8975
09/29/2012 04:47 AMPosted by Lhivera
They simply deny any mobility of the Fire spec, except for IW.


The talents don't reduce your mobility. You're just as mobile as you ever were. They do increase the difference between the damage you can deal while mobile and the damage you can deal while stationary, and that's part of their intended purpose. The developers feel that many ranged specs were able to deal too much mobile damage, and have made an effort to scale it back.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium


Not even remotely close to that.

Invocation makes you stand there for 6 seconds doing nothing.

RoP forces you to always be inside a small cage. Being outside gives you the feeling that you're not doing what you should be doing: DPS.

Bad implementation. Most players here are saying the same thing.

We're not talking about DPS. You could obviously just cast Invocation or RoP before every fight and do more damage than others, BUT THAT'S SIMPLY NOT FUN. IN FACT, THAT'S EXTREMELY ANNOYING.

We're not demanding a buff to our DPS. We're demanding a change in the mechanic of level 90 talents because they're making most players to dislike their class.
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86 Dwarf Hunter
8500
It would be awesome if RoP was instant cast and radius slightly bigger. At least it would be a good start imo.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
09/29/2012 10:22 AMPosted by Phöbös
We're not demanding a buff to our DPS.


I'm curious where, in the post to which you replied, you got the impression that I was saying people are demanding a buff to DPS. I thought it was pretty clearly explaining that, yes, these talents do in fact limit your ability to deal maximum damage when mobile. Which is exactly what they are intended to do.

Yes, Invocation makes you stand still for 4.5-5.5 seconds (depending on haste, probably closest to 5 for most people) doing nothing.

Yes, Rune of Power makes you stand on the rune.

Moving is supposed to hurt the DPS of ranged classes. A lot. Significantly more so than it did in Cataclysm. These mechanisms accomplish that.

I've written up a whole article on these talents this morning:
http://lhiveras-library.com/content/level-90-mage-talents
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
Edited by Lhivera on 9/29/2012 10:36 AM PDT
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90 Gnome Mage
8975
We're not demanding a buff to our DPS.


I'm curious where, in the post to which you replied, you got the impression that I was saying people are demanding a buff to DPS. I thought it was pretty clearly explaining that, yes, these talents do in fact limit your ability to deal maximum damage when mobile. Which is exactly what they are intended to do.

Yes, Invocation makes you stand still for 4.5-5.5 seconds (depending on haste, probably closest to 5 for most people) doing nothing.

Yes, Rune of Power makes you stand on the rune.

Moving is supposed to hurt the DPS of ranged classes. A lot. Significantly more so than it did in Cataclysm. These mechanisms accomplish that.

I've written up a whole article on these talents this morning:
http://lhiveras-library.com/content/level-90-mage-talents
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium


Well. Guess what? Most people dislike these changes.
Casters already have penalty for moving (scorch, ice lance and arcane barrage deal less damage than fireball, frostbolt and arcane blast).

No sense in adding another uncessary penalty. It was working perfectly before, there's absolutely no need to break mage's mechanic.
Edited by Phöbös on 9/29/2012 10:51 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Mage
15075
Everything I'm reading about mages at 90 is really making me unsure if I want to seriously do anything else on my mage, I'm halfway to 86 but all the bad things I'm hearing have me wary and wondering if I should just scrap it and try leveling yet another alt, probably monk which I wouldn't like anyways, I have no desire to see my DK again and my rogue was only fun in cata when I was ganking org.
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90 Gnome Mage
8975
09/29/2012 10:54 AMPosted by Novagosa
Everything I'm reading about mages at 90 is really making me unsure if I want to seriously do anything else on my mage, I'm halfway to 86 but all the bad things I'm hearing have me wary and wondering if I should just scrap it and try leveling yet another alt, probably monk which I wouldn't like anyways, I have no desire to see my DK again and my rogue was only fun in cata when I was ganking org.


They're probably going to change level 90 talents.

Despite the MVP above, most people hate the new talents.
They surely help you to deal a significant more DPS, but they're annoying to use and not fun.
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90 Undead Mage
11335
09/29/2012 10:54 AMPosted by Novagosa
Everything I'm reading about mages at 90 is really making me unsure if I want to seriously do anything else on my mage, I'm halfway to 86 but all the bad things I'm hearing have me wary and wondering if I should just scrap it and try leveling yet another alt, probably monk which I wouldn't like anyways, I have no desire to see my DK again and my rogue was only fun in cata when I was ganking org.


Basically when you hit 90 you *will* go Frost for dungeons or just feel like your' being carried by everyone else.

Frost's burst cleave over-shadows everything Arcane and Fire currently have. As expected Fire's low % crit chance is once again hurting the entire spec's engine (generating hot-streak procs) so it's less fun and more difficult to play again. You would think after 3-4 years of this devs would have figured out it's not fun to spam fireball and barely crit due to RNG (hence we thankfully got inferno blast). Unfortunately it's still difficult to get the large pyro crit now, even if it is dramatically easier to spread the combustion once you do get it. That's something.

Arcane is the talent spec I wanted to play but can't because it's not frost. It's AoE burst damage doesn't approach Frost's. Arcane is less mobile when dealing damage than Frost. Arcane missiles is still a channeled ability you can't use while moving. It's now a significant part of your' DPS so if you clip a cast it's a big deal.

We'll see how they did when people actually start to raid. I honestly am getting the sinking feeling that once again they failed to make the various builds equally appealing, and that there will be a definitive 'go-to' tree for dungeons and raiding. We also have this annoying upkeep trash to deal with now in the form of RoP/Invocation before every single dungeon pull or raid encounter- also multiple times during the fight. If you want to look at the Sims when making your' decision that's fine. I would personally recommend talking to actual raiding Mages and asking them their opinions before making your' own decision.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
10910
don't level your mage, don't do it. the new talents are TERRIBLE

i'm not having fun at all, i'm irritated.

invocation: chore, annoying, tedious. every 40 seconds? That's 6~ seconds of downtime every 40 seconds. jesus.

rune of power: requires you to stand still to have any effect, useless in pve and pvp. yes, let's encourage players to stand still.

IW: useless half of the time unless you're solo farming or pvping.

i'm sitting at bottom or near bottom in heroics WITH invocation on. frost is not fun for pve yet it's the only viable option right now and it sucks for single target

..
Edited by Floaties on 9/29/2012 11:44 AM PDT
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09/29/2012 10:35 AMPosted by Lhivera
Moving is supposed to hurt the DPS of ranged classes. A lot. Significantly more so than it did in Cataclysm.

Maybe moving is supposed to hurt -Mages- a lot more than it did in Cataclysm, but other ranged classes have rather insignificant penalties for moving.
For example:
All 3 hunter specs can perform their entire rotations on the move, sacrificing only a 10% AP buff to switch to Aspect of the Fox.
Warlocks (affliction and demonology in particular) use multiple instants in their rotation and can talent to allow casting while moving, increasing the time of the cast/channel by 50%.
Then there are Ele shaman... Since a glyph allows them to cast Lightning Bolt on the move, they only have 1 spell they have to stop moving for, and it's only a 1.5s cast time (except on procs, when it's instant).

Moonkin and Spriests also don't have a lot of mobility. But that means that 3 out of 5 ranged specs for which "movement hurts a lot" are Mages.

Still, I agree with you on the value of the talents in burst. Though RoP's use kind of levels off most of your burst. And IW's burst seems nearly impossible to line up with vulnerability, unless you find some fire to jump in just before the boss becomes vulnerable.

Anyway... to make things a little more fun (and a -little- more mobile) I'd like to see Invocation make Evocate into a kind of DPS Divine Plea.
Instant cast and you do 50% damage for 10s, but after those 10s you do +25% damage for 40s.
Still the same effect of having to plan, but less of the "Wait up guys, I gotta stand still for 5s".
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