Stromgarde

90 Draenei Paladin
3840
10/03/2012 09:56 AMPosted by Gollard
The thought of neutral Stromgarde is enough to make me sick.


They took Southshore from us. Why we can't have Stromgarde, I have no idea.
Reply Quote
89 Blood Elf Death Knight
1640
10/03/2012 12:47 AMPosted by Vyrin
The Horde may lose their hold on Arathi, they only have it because of lack of resistance, but reclaiming the ruined city wouldn't even fit with the lore. The humans all but abandoned Strom to build Stormwind (clever naming, btw).


No, they didn't. Stromgarde fell during the Third War, long after Stormwind was rebuilt.

I'm talking about even further back then that. Stromgarde remained but it was hardly a far reaching kingdom. It was officially destroyed during the third war, but in the lore it was pretty well an afterthought, populated by those who swore to guard it for more or less sentimental reasons.

I actually wouldn't mind a truly neutral town. It's central enough in the continent to be busy, yet far enough from anything else to avoid any major attemts at a conquer.


Did someone honestly just suggest a neutral Stromgarde? Are you nuts?

I don't necessarily think it would be a fit, just that a central, actually neutral town wouldn't be a bad thing.

Whoever wanted the Alliance to obliterate the Foraken, not a chance in Hell. Their assualt has been too perfect to warrant a complete turn-around, and Sylvanas is too strong a character.


Their assault was plagued by constant setbacks and tactical blunders that were only fixed by Sylvanas deploying superweapons against targets that should not have required superweapons to destroy. She's acknowledged that the Alliance could obliterate the Forsaken at any time if they were so inclined.


She has acknowledged that a concentrated assault from several of the Alliance races would eradicate the Forsaken. However the Blood Elves are the strongest magic-users in Azeroth, and would no doubt come to help. They could all barricate in the Undercity until reinforcements arrived from the rest of the Horde. In effect creating another enormous war in the middle of Lordaeron. Can't we leave the damn place alone?

But that wasn't my point. Whether or not the Forsaken could survive an attack by the Alliance is immaterial, they won't have to. Sylvanas is favored by the creative teams and the Forsaken were a big project, big in lore, and perhaps the most controversial subject in WoW today. They won't wipe them out, nor should they. These are YOUR friends and family, humans. You declared war in fear, so they took their old lands. It's nobody's fault but yours. You think they wanted to ally with the orcs after what they had been taight for generations?
Reply Quote
85 Human Mage
4460
10/03/2012 11:54 AMPosted by Maihray
These are YOUR friends and family, humans.


Were. My friends and family wouldn't actively condone Blight or Necromancy.

10/03/2012 11:54 AMPosted by Maihray
You declared war in fear, so they took their old lands.


I'm sorry, but what? When did we declare war in fear? I seem to recall at the first signs of free-willed undead, there was a joint operation between the living and the Forsaken, which the Forsaken ended in betraying us...

Heck, we accept Death Knights today in our cities and lands.

10/03/2012 11:54 AMPosted by Maihray
It's nobody's fault but yours.


Its our fault the Forsaken reneged on their promise and betrayed us, and have since continued to be hostile towards us despite no provocation from us?

10/03/2012 11:54 AMPosted by Maihray
You think they wanted to ally with the orcs after what they had been taight for generations?


At the time, the only thing I think they wanted was revenge on Arthas. To that end, they were just using the Horde.
Reply Quote
89 Blood Elf Death Knight
1640
It is a WELL known fact that the Forsaken were never truly accepted by the humans. Perhaps war was a bit strong, but you were never anything close to alllied. At least not in reality.

10/03/2012 12:16 PMPosted by Elenie
Were. My friends and family wouldn't actively condone Blight or Necromancy.


Perhaps not, but in light of being raised as undead and having to keep that up to stay alive, it's understandable they decided to turn the Lich King's power against him. In fact I would have probably made the same decision. How would you have them go on? As farming paladins?

10/03/2012 12:16 PMPosted by Elenie
At the time, the only thing I think they wanted was revenge on Arthas. To that end, they were just using the Horde.


I will give you that, but in the time since they have truly allied with the Horde, whether it's a calculated tactical decision or not.

P.S. Though Death Knights may not be executed on sight, they are hardly accepted. Blizzard wanted to make sure of that. Which again brings up your point about Death Knights, they are essentially the same thing. You have something against their necromancy too? The Ebon hold is a testament to the might and abilities of the undead.
Reply Quote
85 Human Mage
4460
10/03/2012 12:37 PMPosted by Maihray
Perhaps not, but in light of being raised as undead and having to keep that up to stay alive, it's understandable they decided to turn the Lich King's power against him. In fact I would have probably made the same decision. How would you have them go on? As farming paladins?


Oh, I was all for giving the Lich King a taste of his own medicine. However, that medicine was then turned on me for no reason at all.

10/03/2012 12:37 PMPosted by Maihray
I will give you that, but in the time since they have truly allied with the Horde, whether it's a calculated tactical decision or not.


They're still using the Horde for their own ends. The Horde provides them protection from the Alliance and neutral organizations like the Argent Crusade, Cenarion Circle, and Knights of the Ebon Blade. Don't forget Sylvanas' reply to Garrosh when he asks her the difference between the Forsaken and the Scourge. She gave a cocky salute and sarcastically said, "I serve the Horde."

Its clear she's biding her time and building up her strength until she has the means to stand on her own against the Horde, Alliance, and whatever else is out there. She's using the Horde; she's not loyal to it.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Warrior
14765
10/03/2012 10:25 AMPosted by Gollard


...you are aware of the incredible insult that is, right? Stromgarde is the very cradle of human civilization, and as humanity is currently engaged in a war for their very survival against the Horde, making Stromgarde neutral would be absurdly stupid.


And plus they were one of the kingdoms who voted to kill all the orcs, them going neutral for the sake of a "cool" city wouldnt make sense at all.


Not to mention that the forsaken assassinated their prince and rose him as one of the undead.
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Shaman
6230
10/03/2012 01:13 PMPosted by Quard
Not to mention that the forsaken assassinated their prince and rose him as one of the undead.


Hey hey hey, The Darkspear guy from Vanilla got him killed, not the Forsaken, don't you go giving away their accomplishments.
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
17695
10/03/2012 11:54 AMPosted by Maihray
She has acknowledged that a concentrated assault from several of the Alliance races would eradicate the Forsaken. However the Blood Elves are the strongest magic-users in Azeroth, and would no doubt come to help.


Sylvanas acknowledged that a serious Alliance attack could destroy the Forsaken and the blood elves.

"They will turn and vent their wrath instead upon those of us in the Eastern Kingdoms - my people and the sin'dorei. Varian will march on my borders and destroy us!"

10/03/2012 11:54 AMPosted by Maihray
These are YOUR friends and family, humans. You declared war in fear, so they took their old lands. It's nobody's fault but yours.


The Alliance allied with the Forsaken and the Forsaken betrayed them.

Regardless of how you might try to justify it, the fact of the matter is that the Forsaken threw the first punch, and that they did so without provocation.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
9725
10/03/2012 11:54 AMPosted by Maihray
Blood Elves are the strongest magic-users in Azeroth


They would have heavy counterparts to face. Stormwind's mage order and or Dalaran if they have "rejoined" the alliance.
Reply Quote
85 Human Mage
4460
10/03/2012 01:48 PMPosted by Gollard
Blood Elves are the strongest magic-users in Azeroth


They would have heavy counterparts to face. Stormwind's mage order and or Dalaran if they have "rejoined" the alliance.


Not to mention the Draenie who had a Magic Utopia on Argus before the Naaru found them. The Draenei had mastered magic 25,000 years ago. Its a pity we constantly dismiss their contributions and magical potency.
Reply Quote
89 Blood Elf Death Knight
1640
The Draenei are too holy, no matter what you say.

Anyway, regardless of whether or not the Alliance could destroy the Forsaken, I still don't think Stromgarde will become a big hub. All of Arathi is basically a memory, as beautiful as it is. The fact that the Ogres have taken over the back districts of the city is testament.
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
17695
10/03/2012 02:01 PMPosted by Maihray
I still don't think Stromgarde will become a big hub. All of Arathi is basically a memory, as beautiful as it is. The fact that the Ogres have taken over the back districts of the city is testament.


Cities can be rebuilt. Just look at Stormwind.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Rogue
9870
09/30/2012 06:37 AMPosted by Everen
Stick a fork in the Trollbane line, they're done. =\


All I see is an opportunity to go full-Iceland and institute a republic governed by a psuedo-democratic entity based on inheritable property-based chieftaincy.

What? A Viking fanboy can dream.


I'm with this guy.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
9725
10/03/2012 02:09 PMPosted by Egrem
I still don't think Stromgarde will become a big hub. All of Arathi is basically a memory, as beautiful as it is. The fact that the Ogres have taken over the back districts of the city is testament.


Cities can be rebuilt. Just look at Stormwind.


In the new human intro introduced in cata it even says the humans seek to bolster their strategic holdings across the world. Sounds like they would like to rebuilt/retake their lost lands.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Warrior
6225

However the Blood Elves are the strongest magic-users in Azeroth, and would no doubt come to help.


Again sir, I shall say, The Alliance has mages on-par, if not greater than the Blood elves. (See Draenei and Highborne.) Their "assumed" support should be NO problem against a Highborne or Draenei mage.

Even without that point, the Sin'dorei were hard pressed "TO FIGHT THE LICH KING", let alone help fight some other race's battles. It took Sylvanas blackmailing Lor'themar for him to send his forces to Northrend, at the absolute MOST, He might send a contingent of magi.
Edited by Malodin on 10/3/2012 4:56 PM PDT
Reply Quote
89 Blood Elf Death Knight
1640
Again sir, I shall say, The Alliance has mages on-par, if not greater than the Blood elves. (See Draenei and Highborne.) Their "assumed" support should be NO problem against a Highborne or Draenei mage.Even without that point, the Sin'dorei were hard pressed "TO FIGHT THE LICH KING", let alone help fight some other race's battles. It took Sylvanas blackmailing Lor'themar for him to send his forces to Northrend, at the absolute MOST, He might send a contingent of magi.


The alliance has powerful mages, but it's has been repeated over and over and is understood in the history that the High Elves were the superior race on Azeroth as far as the arcane arts. The Blood Elves are essentially the same, probably slightly bolstered by their previous exposure to volatile fel magics. And I highly doubt that the remaining High Elves would risk being cut off from the Sunwell by attacking the Sin'dorei. The Highborne on the other hand don't have the thousands of years of open practice (not being forced into hiding by your own people helps) and the power of the sunwell. The Draenei can do what they wish, but for some reason I don't think they would be a big player in any inter-racial war. They're honestly more of a neutral entity than a militant force on behalf of the Alliance.

Addressing your accusation that we didn't want to fight the Lich King, you're wrong. A vast majority of Sin'dorei society wanted to exact slow and torturous retribution on Arthas and the scourge as a whole, and commence it as quickly as possible. However we had less than 10% of our people still alive, our kingdom was beyond broken, and we were without a real leader. It was not that Lor'themar Theron did not want to strike at the Scourge (although the Regent Lord has never been especially bold in matters of state and total command), but he could not send us into Northrend. We barely had a hold on Eversong, much less the Ghostlands, and it was all in ruins. In essence there was nothing to send. Regardless we mustered forces and went to war once again, in light of Sylvanas's ultimatum. I might note that other, weaker races would have been efficiently crushed by Arthas's invasion, much less everything that happened with the Sunwell and on Quel'danas.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Warrior
6225
10/03/2012 11:27 PMPosted by Maihray
Again sir, I shall say, The Alliance has mages on-par, if not greater than the Blood elves. (See Draenei and Highborne.) Their "assumed" support should be NO problem against a Highborne or Draenei mage.Even without that point, the Sin'dorei were hard pressed "TO FIGHT THE LICH KING", let alone help fight some other race's battles. It took Sylvanas blackmailing Lor'themar for him to send his forces to Northrend, at the absolute MOST, He might send a contingent of magi.


The alliance has powerful mages, but it's has been repeated over and over and is understood in the history that the High Elves were the superior race on Azeroth as far as the arcane arts. The Blood Elves are essentially the same, probably slightly bolstered by their previous exposure to volatile fel magics. And I highly doubt that the remaining High Elves would risk being cut off from the Sunwell by attacking the Sin'dorei. The Highborne on the other hand don't have the thousands of years of open practice (not being forced into hiding by your own people helps) and the power of the sunwell. The Draenei can do what they wish, but for some reason I don't think they would be a big player in any inter-racial war. They're honestly more of a neutral entity than a militant force on behalf of the Alliance.

Addressing your accusation that we didn't want to fight the Lich King, you're wrong. A vast majority of Sin'dorei society wanted to exact slow and torturous retribution on Arthas and the scourge as a whole, and commence it as quickly as possible. However we had less than 10% of our people still alive, our kingdom was beyond broken, and we were without a real leader. It was not that Lor'themar Theron did not want to strike at the Scourge (although the Regent Lord has never been especially bold in matters of state and total command), but he could not send us into Northrend. We barely had a hold on Eversong, much less the Ghostlands, and it was all in ruins. In essence there was nothing to send. Regardless we mustered forces and went to war once again, in light of Sylvanas's ultimatum. I might note that other, weaker races would have been efficiently crushed by Arthas's invasion, much less everything that happened with the Sunwell and on Quel'danas.


The Highborne did not have to hide their craft (Well, most of them.) Besides the Quel'dorei of Quel'thalas, you had Highborne that still resided in Eldre'Thalas.

The Draenei could be considered equals to the Blood elves in the arcane arts considering the long lifespans of Draenei. (You even have some Draenei mages over 20,000 years old.)
Just because the main body of Draenei Harnesses the Light, opposed to Arcane magic, still does not negate the fact that Draenei mages are indeed EXTREMELY gifted at their craft.

Yes, Blood elves are good mages, but they aren't all-powerful.

I never said "They didn't want to fight the Lich King." I said they were hard pressed to." Go re-read my post.

Sure Lor'themar and the Sin'dorei wanted revenge, but the fact remains that he wanted to give his troops a break and didn't want to fully devote his people to the war just yet, and it took Sylvanas blackmailing his people for him to join and even then, he sent out as few troops as he possibly could.

Surviving the Scourge assault of Quel'thalas had nothing to do with being "a stronger race", it had to do with Arthas and Ner'zul focusing their forces on getting to the Sunwell.
Edited by Malodin on 10/4/2012 5:22 PM PDT
Reply Quote
89 Blood Elf Death Knight
1640
The Quel'Dorei were not Highborne, they became High ELVES, essentially the same thing as the Blood Elves, and like I said they wouldn't attack.

The Draenei mages are gifted (although not having the benefit of ten-thousand years of arcane use and devotion to learning more by the entire race), but again I say they wouldn't be mobilized, for the simple reason that the Draenei are too close to the Naaru to really dig in with an inter-faction inter-racial war. They are just too holy, no matter where their formal alliegences lie.

You make it sound like a bad thing that the Blood Elves wanted, scratch that, needed a break. And he sent out as many troops as he could. Even more people joined of their own free will. The fact that they were dwarfed by all other races is due to them being the mobile portion of the remaining 10%.

And my point was that they had dealt with a lot, however I don't see how their survival is a result of the attack. If anything it's in spite of it.
Reply Quote
10/03/2012 12:43 PMPosted by Elenie
Oh, I was all for giving the Lich King a taste of his own medicine. However, that medicine was then turned on me for no reason at all.


No, there was a perfectly valid reason that medicine was turned on you. Some thing about traitorous insurgents? Putress? Varimathras? Civil War? Burning Legion trickery? Forsaken forced from their homes?

Unless you mean the use of the Blight after Wrathgate in which case it's as fair as anyone launching weapons at any group of actively hostile people on your border.

The Alliance allied with the Forsaken and the Forsaken betrayed them.

Regardless of how you might try to justify it, the fact of the matter is that the Forsaken threw the first punch, and that they did so without provocation.


This is untrue. The Forsaken betrayed Garithos who, by that point, had performed more treasonous actions against members of the Alliance (mainly the blood elves) than the Forsaken ever had.

He was also thinking he'd simply take Lordaeron away from roughly 70% of its free-willed population and was generally a rude, arrogant bastard the entire civil war against Balnazzar and Detheroc. That's some good provocation.

Directly after that, the Forsaken tried to return to the Alliance. Their rejection was entirely fear-based. There's probably no way Stormwind knew about the incident with Garithos, all that was known was that a group of undead broke free from the Lich King and was willing to ally with the Alliance.

And that's part of the reason that they're called the Forsaken.

I never said "They didn't want to fight the Lich King." I said they were hard pressed to." Go re-read my post.

Sure Lor'themar and the Sin'dorei wanted revenge, but the fact remains that he wanted to give his troops a break and didn't want to fully devote his people to the war just yet, and it took Sylvanas blackmailing his people for him to join and even then, he sent out as few troops as he possibly could.

Surviving the Scourge assault of Quel'thalas had nothing to do with being "a stronger race", it had to do with Arthas and Ner'zul focusing their forces on getting to the Sunwell.


I agree with this completely. After half a decade at war with Deatholme and Dar'Khan Drathir - entirely by themselves and with their best soldiers in Outland - the blood elves' only chance at salvation was the Forsaken and, by relation, the Horde. The fact that they held what they could reclaim of Quel'Thalas for a large amount of time says a lot about their strength and resilience as a people.
Reply Quote
10/05/2012 02:57 AMPosted by Amorene
This is untrue. The Forsaken betrayed Garithos who, by that point, had performed more treasonous actions against members of the Alliance (mainly the blood elves) than the Forsaken ever had.


Strange viewpoint. I wouldn't consider ordering the Elves to hold and repair a strategic location, cease fraternization with outside forces, and use initiative and creativity to delay and destroy an enemy force 'treasonous'. I wouldn't call it particularly reasonable or moral, either, but treasonous? Really?
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]