Ascendance Ele vs. Enh

90 Dwarf Shaman
5350
First off I think the Ascendance spell was a great addition to both aesthetics and functionality.

This post will contain several things: 1) An inquiry as to if people think Ascendance Dps as ele or enh is greater... 2) A view directly from an enhancement shaman about the dps of ascendance... 3) Variables of enh that might add value to haste while using ascendance only.(since it has been such a focal point all of a sudden)

1) The question goes out to all as to what they think of the 15 second window of dpsing as both ele and enh. If you play both than which do you think offers more dps in pve and pvp alike?

2)
A) My view as a strictly enh shaman is that Ascendance as Ele has a much greater capability for dps. My reasoning is that Ele benefits possibly from two different variables in which a spell can be duplicated. In this sense since lava burst does not have a cool down while ascendance is up there is a possibility for HUGE dps increase.

B) Ascendance for Enh does indeed add the great ability to hit those running away and be able to attempt to finish them off, but what it does not add is that EPIC dps boost one might expect to see once activating. I think currently Ascendance for Enh is focusing too much upon the fact that it gives enh a ranged ability. Not all instances will Ascendance be used just so we can get a ranged dps ability. A lot of the times we might still be right on the target of which we are meleeing. In this sense ascendance is not an incredible boost to enhance dps. Yes our auto attacks hit hard, yes our stormstrike hits hard, but we only get to use stormstrike twice, and melee attacks are just that… melee attacks. It seems as there is nothing special beyond that. Maybe it results in a dps increase similar to a 15 second bloodlust. What is shocking to me is that lava lash is not altered at all in its function. Even if it does hit harder we can only use it once! After using stormstrike and unleash elements I feel stagnant in ascendance, just relying heavily on my auto-attacks.

3) This section will be how haste can scale with enh while using ascendance only (haste scaling while out of ascendance is fine)… Haste while using Ascendance should scale with Lava Lash. For the sake of ease let’s just use easy power of 10 percentages. Let’s say with offensive cool downs used along with flurry we have 100% haste, (arbitrary number) this should therefore scale with Lava Lash to reduce it’s cool down by 50%. It will work a lot like proof of alcohol :D… So say we have 60% haste… will reduce cool down by 30% or if we have 200% haste than the cool down will be reduced by 100%. Pair ascendance (3 min cool down) and fire ele (3 min cool down) and this will add a huge spice to the mix since the fire ele gives us the lava lash buff much quicker than searing totem and give use the opportunity to have a 5 stack if we reduce the cooldown of lava lash to 3 seconds while activating haste abilities. This will make haste work for us very well and make use of lava lash while in ascendance!…

This is simple in nature, but it could prove to be very useful in the attempts to make Ascendance (enh) viable to its counterpart Ascendance (ele).
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I think you're forgetting that all of Enhances attacks, even autoattacks, during ascendance are doing nature damage and bypassing all armor.

Granted, we can still be parried and dodged (makes hitting those hit caps even more important), but haste scaling is already very well tied to enhance due to the straight damage we can put out when in form.

I think the other issue we will need to face is the best way to abuse it. Right now Ele can abuse with the free LvB at the beginning and just straight LvB through the entire duration.

We need to get our perfect ability selection down before claiming it isn't as good.
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90 Troll Shaman
13350
09/28/2012 08:05 AMPosted by Iomputino
I think you're forgetting that all of Enhances attacks, even autoattacks, during ascendance are doing nature damage and bypassing all armor.


Also, enhance ascendance makes all attacks benefit of our mastery.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
7575
And they are ranged, Meaning its good to use during one of those phases in a fight where you might have to back out. Either from an effect on yourself or something the boss is doing that forces you to be at range. Its 10sec of being able to do more than LB, shocks and unleash.
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09/28/2012 08:36 AMPosted by Delmarva
And they are ranged, Meaning its good to use during one of those phases in a fight where you might have to back out. Either from an effect on yourself or something the boss is doing that forces you to be at range. Its 10sec of being able to do more than LB, shocks and unleash.


To be fair, he did mention the range.
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90 Human Rogue
8490
They sort of have two different functions, which admittedly is more important to me since I do more PvP than PvE.

I assume you can still get silenced or LoS'd as elemental get screwed by wasting your good cooldown. But the damage is great when it works. Great for PvE, ok for PvP.

With enhance, the benefit is a moderate damage increase, but when you're rooted/snared you can keep doing it. Great for PvP, meh for PvE.
Edited by Discoepfeand on 9/28/2012 10:28 AM PDT
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90 Orc Shaman
8360
I find it pretty lame that as enhance you can only use stormblast twice during the entire duration. Would have liked to see a shorter cooldown on it for more controlled burst rather than just more auto attack damage
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90 Orc Shaman
10715
Also for those 15 second you do not generate malestrom stacks unless you pop your wolves...
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90 Dwarf Shaman
9205
I know this won't actually add anything of true substance to the debate of Ele Asce vs Ench Asce, but you are spot on with the duplication of the lava bursts having a tremendous effect on DPS. I've had times where I never stop casting Lava Burst simply due to replications of replications caused by both my Talent and Mastery. I always UE + Flame Shock right before I pop Asce, not sure if I am supposed to do that, but it helps make sure that Flame Shock won't have to be refreshed and I can endlessly Lava Burst.
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90 Troll Shaman
15630
I leveled as enhance mostly because of ascendance. Was a great way to defend my self when those pesky allies tried ganking me, especially the casters.
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90 Orc Shaman
3495
09/28/2012 10:27 AMPosted by Discoepfeand
With enhance, the benefit is a moderate damage increase, but when you're rooted/snared you can keep doing it. Great for PvP, meh for PvE.


I disagree with "Moderate". If you line up your cooldowns properly you can global someone.

Wait for 5 searing stacks > Lavalash > Stormstrike > Ascendance > Stormblast > Unleash for haste and Fire damage buff > Elemental Blast > Stormblast

You can Stormlash totem after you pop Ascendance, but I doubt you even need it.

I've done this in duels and BGs. Its simply amazing.
Edited by Baddie on 9/28/2012 11:31 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9210
I haven't played enhance yet, but honestly I don't think it could beat out elemental's insane damage output during Ascendance. Especially if that elemental shaman is also popping haste cooldowns (EM, trinkets, heroism) to increase Lava Surge procs and bring your LvB cast down to 1s.

Been doing heroics for the past couple days and while I have Ascendance and all my haste buffs up, I'm easily top dps.
Edited by Saesra on 9/28/2012 11:36 AM PDT
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90 Orc Shaman
13375
Wobble, your logic is flawed. You are insinuating that elemental DPS is bad before and after Ascendance. It's purposely designed to be that way. Of course elemental DPS drops after its over, so does enhance.

Yes, it will be noticeably more of a DPS drop because it is such a noticeable DPS INCREASE. Just as enhance is a moderate DPS increase, and only a moderately noticeable decrease when it's over. The bottom line is that they both more-or-less equate to the same % dps increase.

/backontopic

If you are up against a boss with a specific burst or burn phase, you will probably see elemental shaman being more useful. However over the duration of a normal fight I have found that both enhance and elemental DPS is pretty equal, and both are almost always near the top. It's the first time in a long time I feel useful as a shaman!

I love ascendance and im glad we have one of the more unique spells given out at level 87 :)
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72 Blood Elf Paladin
7040
Yeah, Shamans scale very well at the begining of expansions until everyone catches up at level 90. Then like the previous expansions, we will struggle in mid range above the survivalist hunters.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
13920
09/28/2012 05:20 PMPosted by Geese
Yeah, Shamans scale very well at the begining of expansions until everyone catches up at level 90. Then like the previous expansions, we will struggle in mid range above the survivalist hunters.

I don't know about Elemental, but as of right now Enhancement scales pretty well.
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90 Draenei Shaman
7730
I disagree with "Moderate". If you line up your cooldowns properly you can global someone.

Wait for 5 searing stacks > Lavalash > Stormstrike > Ascendance > Stormblast > Unleash for haste and Fire damage buff > Elemental Blast > Stormblast

You can Stormlash totem after you pop Ascendance, but I doubt you even need it.

I've done this in duels and BGs. Its simply amazing.


you should be using FB instead of FT for pvp... WF/FB.... or FT/FB
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90 Tauren Shaman
9615
09/28/2012 05:45 PMPosted by Jkspiritlink
you should be using FB instead of FT for pvp... WF/FB.... or FT/FB


Pretty sure FB isn't going to be the imbue of choice until we get the 15% increase dmg from the PvP gear.
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90 Orc Shaman
9350
09/28/2012 07:40 AMPosted by Pipebombman
A) My view as a strictly enh shaman is that Ascendance as Ele has a much greater capability for dps. My reasoning is that Ele benefits possibly from two different variables in which a spell can be duplicated. In this sense since lava burst does not have a cool down while ascendance is up there is a possibility for HUGE dps increase.


It's really hard to tell which between the two specs is stronger. Our Ele Shaman and I constantly compete for DPS in heroics, and he's hit capped--where as I'm neither expertise nor hit capped.

09/28/2012 07:40 AMPosted by Pipebombman
B) Ascendance for Enh does indeed add the great ability to hit those running away and be able to attempt to finish them off, but what it does not add is that EPIC dps boost one might expect to see once activating.


I disagree entirely.

09/28/2012 07:40 AMPosted by Pipebombman
Yes our auto attacks hit hard, yes our stormstrike hits hard, but we only get to use stormstrike twice, and melee attacks are just that… melee attacks. It seems as there is nothing special beyond that.


You have no idea how powerful Enhancement Ascendance is.

3) This section will be how haste can scale with enh while using ascendance only (haste scaling while out of ascendance is fine)… Haste while using Ascendance should scale with Lava Lash. For the sake of ease let’s just use easy power of 10 percentages. Let’s say with offensive cool downs used along with flurry we have 100% haste, (arbitrary number) this should therefore scale with Lava Lash to reduce it’s cool down by 50%. It will work a lot like proof of alcohol :D… So say we have 60% haste… will reduce cool down by 30% or if we have 200% haste than the cool down will be reduced by 100%. Pair ascendance (3 min cool down) and fire ele (3 min cool down) and this will add a huge spice to the mix since the fire ele gives us the lava lash buff much quicker than searing totem and give use the opportunity to have a 5 stack if we reduce the cooldown of lava lash to 3 seconds while activating haste abilities. This will make haste work for us very well and make use of lava lash while in ascendance!…


No thank you.

09/28/2012 08:15 AMPosted by Gahk
Also, enhance ascendance makes all attacks benefit of our mastery.


False. You're forgetting Windfury, and Unleash Wind to name a few. Those are just a couple off of the top of my head.

09/28/2012 10:27 AMPosted by Discoepfeand
meh for PvE.


No.

09/28/2012 10:55 AMPosted by Dragam
Also for those 15 second you do not generate malestrom stacks unless you pop your wolves...


Wrong.

09/28/2012 10:57 AMPosted by Hagaro
. I always UE + Flame Shock right before I pop Asce, not sure if I am supposed to do that, but it helps make sure that Flame Shock won't have to be refreshed and I can endlessly Lava Burst.


That doesn't have anything to do with the duration of Flame Shock.

Jesus so many people here need to stop posting misinformation.
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