Admiral Rogers was correct

90 Orc Warlock
11315
Spoilers for Alliance Pandaria intro.
Spoilers for Alliance Pandaria intro.
Spoilers for Alliance Pandaria intro.

So, if you're like me by now you've done the Alliance-side intro to the new continent and you've seen the cutscene where, after bombing a Horde base and fleet into rubble Admiral Rogers orders a large group of orcs swimming for the shores to be gunned down en masse. This, predictably, has caused some back-and-forth on the general and story forums.

The cutscene clearly wants the player to sympathize with the night elf SI:7 agent, since he's the one who puts forth the fact that the orcs were unarmed and likely wanted to surrender, and immediately afterwards is attacked by the sha.

However, you really shouldn't. Firstly, Admiral Rogers' decision was entirely correct from a tactical standpoint - those orcs could have gotten to shore and continued the fight, or escaped to try and rejoin their forces. Destroying them while they were at their most vulnerable was by far the most sensible option.

However, Admiral Rogers' order to open fire is not only correct in the military sense, it is entirely justified according to the orcs' own code of ethics.

When the orcs were reimagined and changed from the "generic McBadguys" of the early Warcraft games and recreated for WC3 and WoW, the phrase "Lok'tar Ogar" or "victory or death" was given to them. As a battlecry, as a catchphrase it has become very popular, however, largely since Wrath of the Lich King, Blizzard and their writers have become very insistant on pushing the idea that Lok'tar Ogar is more than a motto for the orcs but is actually the code by which they are expected to live.

In the Shattering (or perhaps the leader stories, my memory is hazy) the point is brought up that amongst the orcs, especially younger ones, there is a great deal of resentment towards the Alliance stemming from the use of the internment camps. The orcs believed it was a coward's way of killing them off slowly rather than taking what they saw as the honorable action and slaying the orcs wholesale.

In Wrath of the Lich King, we got this speech-

Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy says: Look at 'em, Ug. You know what those are?
Ug'thor Bloodfrenzy says: No, popo. They look kind of like the pigs. Are they pigs?
Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy says: Those...
Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy says: Those are cowards.
Ug'thor Bloodfrenzy says: Are they cowardly pigs, popo?
Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy shakes his head.
Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy says: No, blood of my blood, they are soldiers of the Alliance. Our sworn enemies.
Ug'thor Bloodfrenzy says: But popo, what are they afraid of? Why are they here?
Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy says: They are here because they do not wish to defend their homes... their families...
Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy says: They have give up and surrendered - willingly - to us. Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy says: Ug'thor, they are afraid to die.
Ug'thor Bloodfrenzy scratches his head.
Ug'thor Bloodfrenzy says: I... I don't understand, popo.
Ug'thor Bloodfrenzy puffs out his chest and stands on his tip-toes.
Ug'thor Bloodfrenzy says: Lok'tar ogar, popo!
Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy laughs.
Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy says: That's right, Ug. Victory or death!
Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy says: [In Broken Common] Hear boy, cowards? Boy die! Boy die for freedom!


In Cataclysm, we've seen that even officers can be executed for failing to show sufficient bravery, in the case of Warlord Bloodhilt and the general from Desolation Hold.

More, we've seen that the orcs (and the greater Horde) do not often care to take captives (Silverwind, Theramore), and on the rare occasion that they do, the prisoners are relegated to lives of slavery and forced labor or, depending on which race they are captured by, subjected to brutal experimentation (Gilneas, Hillsbrad).

Where does this all add up?

Well, obviously no soldier wants to be taken prisoner by the enemy, but in the case of the orcs it is a point of honor that they would rather die. Perhaps individuals might show a cowardly streak, but by and large the orc race has sent the message that it is a matter of honor, a moral good even, for their enemies to kill them on the battlefield. The orcs have willing forfeited the right to except clemency of any kind.

With this in mind, Admiral Rogers' decision to gun down the orcs in the water is correct and good from both the standpoints of the Alliance and the Horde.
Reply Quote
87 Dwarf Rogue
0
Honestly to me, it seemed like a pretty standard call to make-- and a wise one, especially given the situation for both sides. New land, new territory, likely not enough supplies to hold that many prisoners, and risking your own soldier to just try and capture them is asking for a heaping handful of trouble.
Reply Quote
83 Worgen Rogue
1155
09/27/2012 04:31 PMPosted by Bruce
Honestly to me, it seemed like a pretty standard call to make-- and a wise one, especially given the situation for both sides. New land, new territory, likely not enough supplies to hold that many prisoners, and risking your own soldier to just try and capture them is asking for a heaping handful of trouble.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Hunter
5810
I could not agree more but it seems there is more happy bunny "OH NO THEY NOT UNARMED QQQQQQ" ally side. Frustrating.

Tactically, it was the -right- decision.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Warlock
11315
09/27/2012 04:31 PMPosted by Bruce
Honestly to me, it seemed like a pretty standard call to make-- and a wise one, especially given the situation for both sides. New land, new territory, likely not enough supplies to hold that many prisoners, and risking your own soldier to just try and capture them is asking for a heaping handful of trouble.


My point, though, is that this goes beyond 'tactically correct.'

By the orcs' own stated code of ethics, Admiral Rogers would have been morally wrong to accept the surrender of the orcs (assuming of course, that the cutscene is accuract and they did want to surrender). Even if the orcs in question did evince a cowardly streak and their courage failed them for a moment, later on they would have regretted their decision and come to breate themselves for failing their chosen code of honor.

Rogers' decision spares them that, and kills them on the battlefield as the orcs have repeatedly insisted they wish to be.

I could not agree more but it seems there is more happy bunny "OH NO THEY NOT UNARMED QQQQQQ" ally side. Frustrating.


It's an anvil-drop of Blizzard's stated theme for the expansion, which is that "War is bad."
Reply Quote
1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
*high fist fives Kurze and Ana*

It's about damn time folks.

EDIT: Wait, I misread Ana's post.

What did you say?

Is that in the games story Alliance side or just players crying?
Edited by Iamgurvir on 9/27/2012 4:41 PM PDT
Reply Quote
83 Worgen Rogue
1155
09/27/2012 04:34 PMPosted by Anamaleth
there is more happy bunny "OH NO THEY NOT UNARMED QQQQQQ" ally side.


This.

So much this.
Reply Quote
30 Pandaren Shaman
3040
Also by taking them prisoner they would bind Alliance resources and personnel.
Reply Quote
1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
You have to kill them all. Armed or not, Horde are just going to try to kill you until either you or they are dead.


Fix'd, but nonetheless, I agree.
Reply Quote
83 Worgen Rogue
1155
09/27/2012 04:49 PMPosted by Iamgurvir
You have to kill them all. Armed or not, Horde are just going to try to kill you until either you or they are dead.


Fix'd, but nonetheless, I agree.


says gurvir.

c:
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
10460
09/27/2012 04:49 PMPosted by Iamgurvir
You have to kill them all. Armed or not, Horde are just going to try to kill you until either you or they are dead.


Fix'd, but nonetheless, I agree.


I don't think so. With the orcs and forsaken eliminated, I think the blood elves would be willing to negotiate peace.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Rogue
8195
People complaining about Theramore or Admiral Rogers needs to take into account the setting of the game. It's loosely medieval and applying modern morals and warfare tactics is a downhill battle.

Gotta look at how they would have done things back in the day. You capture a general or something for ransom...kill everyone else. There was no Geneva Convention or carebear mentality. There was kill or be killed, no prisoners.

TL/DR: OP was spot on.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Hunter
5810
There was no Geneva Convention or carebear mentality. There was kill or be killed, no prisoners.


I think I am in love.

You totally expressed what I think.
Reply Quote
Gotta look at how they would have done things back in the day. You capture a general or something for ransom...kill everyone else. There was no Geneva Convention or carebear mentality. There was kill or be killed, no prisoners.


^
Reply Quote
1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
09/27/2012 05:40 PMPosted by Magdaleine
I don't think so. With the orcs and forsaken eliminated, I think the blood elves would be willing to negotiate peace.


While I disagree with his "fix", as it is not cultural for Tauren, Blood Elves, or Trolls to fight until they are no more, it certainly holds true for orcs and Forsaken.

Now, the thing about elves. I used to feel that way until Tides of War. Now, idk. I feel they're as monstrous as any other and the Alliance should wipe them out.


You.

Let's set aside our difference and be friends.

*opens arms*
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
10460
09/27/2012 05:40 PMPosted by Magdaleine
I don't think so. With the orcs and forsaken eliminated, I think the blood elves would be willing to negotiate peace.


While I disagree with his "fix", as it is not cultural for Tauren, Blood Elves, or Trolls to fight until they are no more, it certainly holds true for orcs and Forsaken.

Now, the thing about elves. I used to feel that way until Tides of War. Now, idk. I feel they're as monstrous as any other and the Alliance should wipe them out.


I can't say I've read Tides of War, so I wouldn't really know. I'd argue it also applies to the goblins, regardless of their morality.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
10120
09/27/2012 05:48 PMPosted by Ferenold


While I disagree with his "fix", as it is not cultural for Tauren, Blood Elves, or Trolls to fight until they are no more, it certainly holds true for orcs and Forsaken.

Now, the thing about elves. I used to feel that way until Tides of War. Now, idk. I feel they're as monstrous as any other and the Alliance should wipe them out.


I can't say I've read Tides of War, so I wouldn't really know. I'd argue it also applies to the goblins, regardless of their morality.
Blood Elves are basically pretty Orcs at this point. Besides BLUDSWARN RAWR.

Trolls are insane and eat each other.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]