Admiral Rogers was correct

Just trying to survive, so they would likely not bother with fighting unless absolutely necessary.


Their methods of survival aren't very peaceful. The Darkspear are a random exception, but I feel that in the case of Zanzil (or whoever lived on that island offshore to Sen'jin Village) that once Vol'jin dies his trolls have no reason to not join the rest of their brethren.

They're just as warlike and perhaps moreso than the Orcs. The only reason they're not seen as a threat is that they've been everybody's punching bags since the Amani wars.
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100 Night Elf Warrior
10165
I guess the strongest argument against shooting them is what Rell says. Had he left it at "They want to surrender", with no proof, it'd be be totally right. But at the same time, he observes that they're just trying to stay alive.

Was it tactically smart? Sure. But I personally think it was extremely dishonorable of Rogers. It's also worth mentioning that Rell is a night elf, a race known for fighting from the shadows and using ambush tactics, and for extreme hatred of orcs, and he still thought it was wrong.
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90 Orc Warlock
11315
10/02/2012 12:48 PMPosted by Hayleígh
Was it tactically smart? Sure. But I personally think it was extremely dishonorable of Rogers. It's also worth mentioning that Rell is a night elf, a race known for fighting from the shadows and using ambush tactics, and for extreme hatred of orcs, and he still thought it was wrong.


I chalk that up more as a testament of Blizzard's ongoing de-fangification (that's a word now. shut up.) of the night elves than anything else.

TBH at this point I get more the impression that Blizzard wants to mutate them all into high elves and wash their hands of the kaldorei entirely.
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90 Worgen Druid
10460
10/02/2012 01:01 PMPosted by Kurze
Was it tactically smart? Sure. But I personally think it was extremely dishonorable of Rogers. It's also worth mentioning that Rell is a night elf, a race known for fighting from the shadows and using ambush tactics, and for extreme hatred of orcs, and he still thought it was wrong.


I chalk that up more as a testament of Blizzard's ongoing de-fangification (that's a word now. shut up.) of the night elves than anything else.

TBH at this point I get more the impression that Blizzard wants to mutate them all into high elves and wash their hands of the kaldorei entirely.


^^^^ So true. To be honest, if I hadn't seen the night elf model and name, I wouldn't be able to tell it was a night elf. I'd think it was a human, really.
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85 Troll Warrior
5535
10/02/2012 12:00 PMPosted by Malere
Just trying to survive, so they would likely not bother with fighting unless absolutely necessary.


Their methods of survival aren't very peaceful. The Darkspear are a random exception, but I feel that in the case of Zanzil (or whoever lived on that island offshore to Sen'jin Village) that once Vol'jin dies his trolls have no reason to not join the rest of their brethren.

They're just as warlike and perhaps moreso than the Orcs. The only reason they're not seen as a threat is that they've been everybody's punching bags since the Amani wars.


No, the trolls are not as warlike as the orcs.

We know this as a fact. Trolls are bad, but only like regular bad. We know this because we know that they have won wars and yet the races they defeatd remain.

They're evil and horrible and they even eat people. But they don't slaughter people down to the last child. Azeroth won't ever be destroyed by -all trolls-.

Even under their empires, they at their worst forced the other races into the sort of tribal life that trolls are now forced into under human kingdoms.

I mean, I wouldn't compare the two as if humans are bad like trolls, but trolls have been on Azeroth from the beginning and have lasted through long long periods of peace. I don't normally try to defend trolls, but it's mostly the statement that you said they are possibly moreso warlike than the orcs and no way. Orcs keep on killing you until they are all dead. The only reason the Amani are still fighting is because the elves really did steal their land and they're backed into a wall. Have you met a blood elf???

Uh, back on point though. Trolls are pretty bad and I wouldn't argue that a human perspective should be of them being any better than orcs. Like those darkspears that went to Stormwind to warn them about the Zandalari should have just straight up been killed on sight that was stupid. But like orcs are obviously more warlike than trolls.

10/02/2012 12:48 PMPosted by Hayleígh
Was it tactically smart? Sure. But I personally think it was extremely dishonorable of Rogers. It's also worth mentioning that Rell is a night elf, a race known for fighting from the shadows and using ambush tactics, and for extreme hatred of orcs, and he still thought it was wrong.


To me that just says that Rell was written out of the Kaldorei theme/style.

10/02/2012 01:05 PMPosted by Ferenold
^^^^ So true. To be honest, if I hadn't seen the night elf model and name, I wouldn't be able to tell it was a night elf. I'd think it was a human, really.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure Rell is an RPer born in Ironforge and he is also an Argent.
Edited by Frostytroll on 10/2/2012 4:55 PM PDT
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100 Human Warrior
11430
They were soldiers, not civilians.

Thinking they wouldn't attack Rogers and her soldiers, the moment they got to shore, is just naive.
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80 Night Elf Druid
600
They were soldiers, not civilians.

Thinking they wouldn't attack Rogers and her soldiers, the moment they got to shore, is just naive.


10/02/2012 12:48 PMPosted by Hayleígh
But I personally think it was extremely dishonorable of Rogers.


Honor has no place in all out open combat. You kill or be killed.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6710
From reading through the post and from what I have heard and now seeing said event on my alliance toon. I got to say it was the right call without revenge or honor coming into play. It’s more of viable tactic to stay alive in a land where you have little if to no support and you have to outlast the enemy. Taking prisoners is a drain on resources you will have to take what little soldiers you have and guard them and you will also have to feed them as well. Then on top of all that it would slow down the pace of your advance in trying to beat out the horde in getting the foothold before them.
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100 Night Elf Warrior
10165
They were soldiers, not civilians.

Thinking they wouldn't attack Rogers and her soldiers, the moment they got to shore, is just naive.


10/02/2012 12:48 PMPosted by Hayleígh
But I personally think it was extremely dishonorable of Rogers.


Honor has no place in all out open combat. You kill or be killed.


I personally think


Not to mention the fact that Rogers wasn't engaged in open combat. This comes at a point where the aerial combat is done and the Horde base is pretty much leveled, and their commander has fled.

Rogers didn't make the call because it was tactically viable, or because it was honorable. She made the call because they were Horde, and, as she so obviously says, she hates the Horde.
Edited by Hayleígh on 10/3/2012 6:38 AM PDT
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100 Human Warrior
11430




Honor has no place in all out open combat. You kill or be killed.


I personally think


Not to mention the fact that Rogers wasn't engaged in open combat. This comes at a point where the aerial combat is done and the Horde base is pretty much leveled, and their commander has fled.

Rogers didn't make the call because it was tactically viable, or because it was honorable. She made the call because they were Horde, and, as she so obviously says, she hates the Horde.


And the Horde would've attacked, once they got ashore. Or at least rejoined their forces.
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100 Night Elf Warrior
10165




Not to mention the fact that Rogers wasn't engaged in open combat. This comes at a point where the aerial combat is done and the Horde base is pretty much leveled, and their commander has fled.

Rogers didn't make the call because it was tactically viable, or because it was honorable. She made the call because they were Horde, and, as she so obviously says, she hates the Horde.


And the Horde would've attacked, once they got ashore. Or at least rejoined their forces.


Assuming they didn't actually surrender.

Lok'tar Ogar didn't stop most of the Horde forces from surrendering when Doomhammer was defeated at Blackrock. Not all of them did, mind you; the rest broke and made a sprint for the Dark Portal. Again, not very in the mindset of Lok'tar Ogar, and this is during a time when the Horde is painted as high on demon blood.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6710
Assuming they didn't actually surrender.

Lok'tar Ogar didn't stop most of the Horde forces from surrendering when Doomhammer was defeated at Blackrock. Not all of them did, mind you; the rest broke and made a sprint for the Dark Portal. Again, not very in the mindset of Lok'tar Ogar, and this is during a time when the Horde is painted as high on demon blood.


I guess in the end even the orcs are just like every one else and have the same urge to want live over giveing up there lives for Lok'tar..
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100 Human Paladin
14610
The only time the Horde has ever surrendered is after an outright brutally, society-shaking, ground-shattering defeat. When Turalyon gave Doomhammer the most righteous of smack-downs, and dropped a consecration that let him tank half the Old Horde into submission, he didn't just beat a bunch of orcs, he beat the very idea of what the Horde is. Combine that with the withdrawal from fel influence that threw the orcs into lethargy to factor in any further surrenders.

In every other example, we see orcs never surrendering without a fight. Even Eitrigg, the calmest of the calm, when faced with insurmountably overwhelming odds in the form of a bunch of footmen led by a paladin, goes as far as to kill one of them unarmed and brutally maim another. Grom Hellscream, when Thrall freed him in WCIII, didn't surrender peacefully as well, he was beaten into submission.

Orcs have a bad track record as prisoners as well. A little inspiration and they wrecked the internment camps. Heck, only reason the Skyseeker crashed was a bunch of prisoners got loose and sabotaged the thing.

The current Horde is driven. Gar'dul proves that they're willing to execute cowards, and will readily. "Hellscream's eyes are upon you" has become as common as "For the Horde!". There's been a huge resurgence in the Horde's warrior culture and Garrosh has created a fanatic warrior-class around him in the orcs that -does- uphold Lok'tar Ogar as though it were a religion. There's absolutely nothing, less than nothing in fact, to indicate those orcs wouldn't hit shore and started fighting, fatigued or not.

What's dishonorable about Rogers ordering her troops to preserve their lives rather than lose men saving the orcs from themselves?

There was no expressed intent by the orcs to surrender. Without that, they weren't defeated enemies, they were enemies at a disadvantage approaching a tenuous position. Know why she wasn't Sha'ified as soon as she hit shore? Because Rogers made that decision with passionless logic.
Edited by Vesran on 10/3/2012 7:50 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Warrior
10165

What's dishonorable about Rogers ordering her troops to preserve their lives rather than lose men saving the orcs from themselves?


I am judging her from my personal view, as I stated earlier, or my personal view of honor.


There was no expressed intent by the orcs to surrender. Without that, they weren't defeated enemies, they were enemies at a disadvantage approaching a tenuous position. Know why she wasn't Sha'ified as soon as she hit shore? Because Rogers made that decision with passionless logic.


WoW's ease with swimming aside, why don't you jump into a lake in plate (I believe that's what they were wearing), and show us how easily you can communicate anything beyond frantically trying to stay afloat, which is what Rell comments on.

Also, I don't know how the Sha work exactly. We have the case of Rell and the Horde commander, who start to become physically possessed, but then we have the Jade Serpent, where the anger unleashes a Sha in the area rather than possessing the individual soldiers. The fact that Rogers wasn't Sha'd is rather strange, not because of the order, but because she has such hatred for the Horde. Her hatred isn't derived from logic, it comes from wanting revenge for Southshore and her parents.

Edit: On the note about Sha and possession, it's worth noting that if it was flat out negative emotions = possession, most Death Knights wouldn't even be able to set foot on Pandaria.
Edited by Hayleígh on 10/3/2012 8:17 AM PDT
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85 Troll Warrior
5535
It doesn't matter if they were going to surrender.

They are -at present- trying to destroy Stormwind.

Not conquer it. Not defeat it. Raze it to the ground.

They're hunting Anduin to kill him.

It doesn't matter if they're "real sorry" once they're no longer in a position to slaughter people.

You don't get a verdict of "not guilty" by saying you're sorry.

The orcs probably would have fought to the end, but why anyone thinks that Stormwind soldiers of all people should show them mercy is flawed in their thinking.

P.S

I hate Anduin so much. Admiral Rogers would make a manlier and more badass prince than he does.
Edited by Frostytroll on 10/3/2012 8:34 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
10120
10/03/2012 08:32 AMPosted by Frostytroll
I hate Anduin so much. Admiral Rogers would make a manlier and more badass prince than he does.
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90 Orc Warlock
11315
10/03/2012 08:32 AMPosted by Frostytroll
I hate Anduin so much. Admiral Rogers would make a manlier and more badass prince than he does.


I've largely ceased to rage at individual characters for being idiots in his manner. It's pointless, because it all ties back into the same root problem - Blizzard's love affair with the Horde. It didn't break the game at first, but it's spiraled so far out of control that by now it's impossible to say just how much the story's suffered for it. Then Blizzard combines that with heavy doses of pure cliched writing, a dash of laziness, and depth so shallow a gnome could keep his head above water so that the 10-second attention spans can follow the story and it all gets reduced to a snarled mess.

It's gotten to the point that it just sinks into everything.

Velen and the naaru in BC, the dragons and Dalaran in Wrath/Cata, the Cenarion Circle and Earthen Ring, the Argent Crusade, Jaina going neutral, Anduin - all of it stems from Blizzard's unrelenting Horde-love.
Edited by Kurze on 10/3/2012 9:28 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
14610
I think there's more than a few cases of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing in regard to writing. Their process involves a lot of fragmented development throughout zones. For example, the current Jade Forest introduction was launched deep into the beta, well after Theramore and all the details were hammered out fact. Anduin's speech on the other hand, reeks of a different period of development.

It even sort of contradicts his speech in Tides of War where he acknowledges firmly and decisively that this is a war that has to be fought, and that the Horde -must- be stopped. He even questions Varian's insistence that the Alliance not sink to the Horde's level in enslaving natural powers, robbing from dragonflights, and wielding weapons of mass destruction, wondering if the Horde is willing to go to a level they won't, won't they lose?

It seems the greater Alliance goal at this point is saving the Horde from themselves, again. Maybe trying to figure out a way of stopping it from turning into cyclical violence as well.
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100 Human Hunter
10030
10/03/2012 10:36 AMPosted by Vesran
It seems the greater Alliance goal at this point is saving the Horde from themselves, again. Maybe trying to figure out a way of stopping it from turning into cyclical violence as well.


Which is a chronic problem with the Horde.

Idiots seem to think they can do as they please, the Horde grumbles about certain details that are stupid, and the idiots still do whatever they intend to do, regardless of possible outcomes.

At some point, the Horde needs to stop thinking that the Warchief is the Horde. You have six races and a group of Pandaren. Start thinking, stop following.
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85 Troll Warrior
5535
10/03/2012 09:26 AMPosted by Kurze
Blizzard's love affair with the Horde.


Yeah, I know. I was playing while chatting to my friend and at each point I was like "IM so MAD CUZ THIS MAKES NO SENSE" rather than just hating the character.

But I mean, I feel like what I said was funnier than "I seeth with generic rage!!!" I don't really like talking about my excuses for the lore but I like to pretend that he's a dreadlord and also that I killed him like ten times.

Wat?

No, jk, my real excuse is that he's already kind of crap and he's messed up by the sha of doubt or something. I dunno, I focus more on Admiral Taylor's story.

NO SPOILERS I'M NOT DONE YET thanks.
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