5.0 Brewmaster PvE Guide

90 Pandaren Monk
8710
Great guide!

Does anyone else feel like the light stagger-mid-heavy stagger should be highlighted to players a bit more? I had no idea what it meant when <light stagger> would pop up in place of reg or that it was a way of keeping track of your stagger amount.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7095
He doesn't totally discount mastery he's sayin to prioritize either hit/exp first then mastery or parry/dodge then mastery since goto creates orbs from crit obviously you don't want to gimp yourself going that route, if your avoidance then you want to do parry dodge first then mastery and exp/hit
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
Using EH on cooldown is poor play, since the heal scales with vengeance and triggering it when you don't need the health boost ensures the healing is wasted. More effective would be "EH if you need the heal, otherwise Jab." I will often save the energy if, say, something unavoidable (such as an uninterruptible cast) is headed my way and Expel Harm immediately following to mitigate it - not unlike Death Knights will do with Death Strike.

Maximum uptime, also, does not completely translate to maximum efficiency. Using Guard on cooldown is great, but using it when you're expecting a spike or immediately after specific mechanics trigger or while your healer is otherwise occupied is more effective.

Monks, particularly those running normals, will want to take note that the healing from Zen Sphere will cancel out Light and Moderate Stagger during its duration for 15 seconds for a total of 2 chi. Using it (and Gift of the Ox, of course) intelligently can save you resources that can otherwise be spent on other abilities (such as a 2 chi emergency Zen Sphere burst heal).

The point I'm trying to make is proper play with a monk isn't linear, and that should be expressed strongly in this guide. A monk has a -lot- of tools to keep him/herself alive and using them without forethought will translate into poor play. It may get you through your average dungeon, but it won't help you when things get really hairy.
Edited by Rijdot on 9/29/2012 3:57 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Monk
11050
This thread has LOT of misinformation in it.

Stat weights are…complicated. Agility is clearly the best stat, but the importance of secondary stats varies dramatically depending on your view of Gift of the Ox. If you can successfully use GotO orbs to heal yourself, hit/expertise becomes the best stat (since you have to hit to proc them). If not, it’s close to the worst. My advice:

Using Gift of the Ox: Go for hit/expertise caps (7.5% for hit, 15% for expertise). You’ll have to learn how to grab orbs without overhealing, but it’s a good skill, and you’ll want hit/exp anyway for windwalker DPS. After that, go for haste (more energy.) Reforge out of mastery (preferably) or crit. If you’re windwalker main spec or just don’t want to lose DPS, only go for 7.5% expertise.

Not using Gift of the Ox: Go for parry/dodge (keep them roughly equal, but prioritize parry) and reforge out of mastery/hit/exp.


#1: Don't tell people how to play sub-par. That's a terrible idea.

#2: GotO isn't the only reason you need hit+exp. Chi generation is critical to minimal stagger uptime.

#3: 15% expertise is a LOT.

2H or DW?

In theory, they’re equal. In practice, I find that Gift of the Ox generation from a 2h is better than that from DW, so I would (slightly) prefer a 2hander. Ilvl still trumps all, though, so if you’ve got two great 1H’s, use those.

This leaves out the portion where DW gets better elusive brew procs.
Edited by Rollman on 9/30/2012 3:05 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
13895
09/30/2012 03:04 AMPosted by Rollman
This leaves out the portion where DW gets better elusive brew procs.


Is it still better even with the normalization they built in?

Granted, you are still swinging a lot more for more procs, but it gets less per crit, which was changed back at the end of August. I figured they were about the same.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
11050
It may have changed but I was under the impression that DW was getting more consistant procs
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90 Undead Monk
3935
There's one reason I'm preferring a polearm 463 iLvL at least.

My Xuen's Spear has 129agi, 193 sta, and 190 more secondary stats over dual wielding. I don't believe a second enchant on an offhand would be enough to make up for that.
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All, thanks for the feedback! I'd like to provide a response to some of the criticisms.

I'd say your tier 2 is wrong, as Chi Wave is some insanely good healing when you're tanking in dungeons / doing bosses if it dosent go all whacky.

Well, whacky is a problem :) At the moment, Brewmaster's energy gen (and thus Chi gen) is low enough that I pretty much never use any of the L30 talents, though I'm willing to entertain suggestions on how to use them better.

If you follow these guidelines you're going to have a bad time. The rotation allows for enough Chi to keep up Shuffle as well as Stagger off Light Stagger as well. I personally use Expel Harm, Guard on CD, and have more than enough Chi to keep my Stagger minimized and keep an uptime on shuffle. If you are stacking Shuffle high unnecessarily than you'll probably run into an issue where you take far too much stagger damage.

From my testing with Venyasure's spreadsheet, the optimal Shuffle uptime was around 80% or so. My experience has been that tanks aren't killed by periodic damage, they're killed by burst damage (most of the time) so I highly prefer maximizing Shuffle to PB; of course, YMMV.

09/28/2012 11:26 AMPosted by Brotherbrian
I'm not sure why you totally discount mastery; as far as I'm concerned it is the most effective way at both mitigating damage and increasing your worst case time to death. I consider it the most potent stat for progression tanking.

I'm not totally discounting it (and should probably rewrite the guide to say so), it just came out the worst in every sim I did. I agree it's probably a good stat for progression, though it's arguable whether it's better than Stamina for that purpose.

Using EH on cooldown is poor play, since the heal scales with vengeance and triggering it when you don't need the health boost ensures the healing is wasted. More effective would be "EH if you need the heal, otherwise Jab." I will often save the energy if, say, something unavoidable (such as an uninterruptible cast) is headed my way and Expel Harm immediately following to mitigate it - not unlike Death Knights will do with Death Strike.

Maximum uptime, also, does not completely translate to maximum efficiency. Using Guard on cooldown is great, but using it when you're expecting a spike or immediately after specific mechanics trigger or while your healer is otherwise occupied is more effective.

Monks, particularly those running normals, will want to take note that the healing from Zen Sphere will cancel out Light and Moderate Stagger during its duration for 15 seconds for a total of 2 chi. Using it (and Gift of the Ox, of course) intelligently can save you resources that can otherwise be spent on other abilities (such as a 2 chi emergency Zen Sphere burst heal).

The point I'm trying to make is proper play with a monk isn't linear, and that should be expressed strongly in this guide. A monk has a -lot- of tools to keep him/herself alive and using them without forethought will translate into poor play. It may get you through your average dungeon, but it won't help you when things get really hairy.

Completely agreed on EH, Guard, and your points about forethought, and I've said as much in the full rotation. For new brewmasters, though, I'd rather they use it on CD then not use it at all. Guard, particularly, helps GotO significantly while it's up. I've already seen lots of brewmaster tanks not using EH or Guard at all and complaining that they die too easy.

#1: Don't tell people how to play sub-par. That's a terrible idea.
#2: GotO isn't the only reason you need hit+exp. Chi generation is critical to minimal stagger uptime.
#3: 15% expertise is a LOT.
...This leaves out the portion where DW gets better elusive brew procs.


There's a difference between sub-par and 90%. This guide is intended for people getting started on Brewmaster; I expect progression-minded folk will adjust on a per-fight basis, as they always have. Agreed on your points 2 and 3, though I don't know what adjustments you'd recommend. As for EB procs, you're right that DW makes them more consistent, though the overall generation of EB charges appears to be the same for 2H/DW.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
11050
09/30/2012 12:51 PMPosted by Alamonk
Agreed on your points 2 and 3, though I don't know what adjustments you'd recommend.

7.5% hit and expertise caps met, just as they are for all tanks to guarantee that all of your jabs and keg smashes will hit and not be dodged. After that, the relative value of agility versus stamina and haste versus mastery will vary from fight to fight. A slow, hard hitting boss will prefer high stamina and high mastery so that you can minimize each individual attack. A fast hitting boss will prefer agility and haste for more rapid responses.
Edited by Rollman on 9/30/2012 4:04 PM PDT
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11 Gnome Mage
0
09/30/2012 06:48 AMPosted by Rollman
It may have changed but I was under the impression that DW was getting more consistant procs


DW gets more consistent procs - meaning that you get it more reliably. 2h gives you more overall procs, but they come in "spikes" - you may end up with 15 a few seconds in to a fight, use them, and then not get any for 15 sec after that. With DW, it's more likely that you'll end up with a constant "flow" of them, if that makes sense.

The advantages of the two weapon types are:

Dual Wielding:
- Dual Enchants
- More consistent procs of Elusive Brew
- Slightly higher DPS

Polearm/Staff:
- Increased stats from the item
- More overall procs of Elusive Brew

I know people like answers where there's a clear "you should do X", even if you only gain 1% by doing so, but in this case, there's really not one. Just use whichever you get.
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85 Draenei Paladin
14255
Alot of guides are referencing so much different information its insane.

MMO Champ says Haste is top dog for gemming. So far I have +320 haste in Yellows and Haste/Agi in Reds. I have gained about 1.65 energy every second from gemming haste atm.

IMHP Haste = More uptime on all our active mitigation/PB and Guard when we need it.

Now one can argue that gemming haste will drastically lower your EH. Lower stamina.

What are the thoughts on this atm? I see a lot of you going for Agi/master/stamina gemming. Are you leaving haste to just your normal gear?
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90 Pandaren Monk
13895
I'm going for haste hybrids with my gemming instead of pure agi or stam, simply because of the amount of secondary stats you can get from gems vs the primary stats. I'm only going for stam/agi hybrids until I get a comfortable buffer for going into raids and hardmodes. Mastery is on the low end of my priority list at the moment unless there will be a pure melee-damage-only fight in one of the raids (and I don't believe there is).
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76 Human Monk
6980
09/25/2012 07:00 PMPosted by Alamonk
Glyph of Breath of Fire - this would be better if not for the fact that the disorient breaks on damage…including the Breath of Fire damage, so it just instantly wears off. Ugh. Assuming they fix it to be useful, it could be pretty helpful.


Actually I find this useful as some sort of AoE interrupt for caster mobs.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6840
Agreed on your points 2 and 3, though I don't know what adjustments you'd recommend.

7.5% hit and expertise caps met, just as they are for all tanks to guarantee that all of your jabs and keg smashes will hit and not be dodged. After that, the relative value of agility versus stamina and haste versus mastery will vary from fight to fight. A slow, hard hitting boss will prefer high stamina and high mastery so that you can minimize each individual attack. A fast hitting boss will prefer agility and haste for more rapid responses.


15% expertise cannot be gained in current gear available pre-raid from my understanding. Until we start seeing epics roll our way, stamina seems to be a solid way to go to give us those buffers in the first raid weeks coming up. Then we could start swapping stats around.

In just normal heroics, depending on the bosses of course, but on average my shuffle uptime is never below 90%, Guard is between 85-95% uptime, but elusive brew uptimes seem really low around the 50% mark. Sometimes lower than that, but we are killing these bosses pretty quickly. Will be interesting to see what happens in raids or on anything that matters.

My priorities at this point for defensive abilities:

- Elusive brew with stacks greater than 7. I am using a 2h, so that could be an issue. haven't tried 1 hand yet.
- Guard if I have 3+ Chi (Will pool chi and save Guard if I know a big hit is incoming)
- Purifying brew only if I reach Moderate/Heavy Stagger. Between a healer, my self orbs, and Expel Harm never any issues keeping me up.
- Expel Harm if under 80% health range.
- Blackout Kick if I do not have Shuffle active, or if my Chi is 3+ and Guard is on CD.

They really need a raid target dummy that hits back like a raid boss with heal dummies that heal you once you hit 30% every time so we could see how our abilities, stat weights actually make a difference.

I am always looking for more input on this, and the more info we collect and combine, the better everyone can be.

EDIT: Ok, tried some 1h to test results. It actually gave me higher uptime on Elusive Brew, by a good 15% on my initial test run.
Edited by Genshin on 10/1/2012 3:03 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
11440
Just curious in regards to mastery for brewmasters...does it by increasing our stagger portion, also decrease our initial damage from the hit. For example, assuming say shuffle up with 60/40 would an increase in mastery lean this towards a 50/50 with high mastery, or would diminishing returns, or a misunderstanding of our mastery not be helpful here?
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90 Pandaren Monk
13895
Increasing mastery means decreasing the initial hit and putting more of it into Stagger.

I didn't really understand your question, so I hope that helps.
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86 Undead Death Knight
10495
09/25/2012 07:00 PMPosted by Alamonk
A Staggered attack will take 80% damage instantly, and the remaining 20% is added to a DoT that ticks for 10% of its damage value every second. A second Staggered attack resets the DoT timer and increases the DoT’s damage, and so on until you die, stop taking attacks (which allows the DoT to run its course) or you remove the DoT via Purifying Brew.


This is incorrect. When an attack is Staggered, 20% (base) of the damage is done over 10 seconds, 2% per second. When a second attack is staggered, the damage does not accumulate but instead 'rolls'. For example, if you were to be hit for 10,000, you'd take 8k, then you'd take 200 per second for 10 seconds. If, after 5 seconds, you were hit for another 10k, you would take 8k damage initially. The next 5 ticks of stagger would hit for 400 (1st Stagger + 2nd Stagger), then Stagger would tick for 5 additional seconds dealing 200 damage per tick (The first stagger has now worn off), and then Stagger would wear off entirely.

Does that make sense?

The damage doesn't stack up infinitely, instead it goes up and down over time. As a result, you don't want to Purify every 10ish seconds arbitrarily, instead you want to purify only immediately after a highly damaging attack or when you have excess Chi.
Edited by Descretoria on 10/1/2012 11:10 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
14035
So. Quick questions.

Is anyone else noticing threat generation issues as a Brewmaster? Or is it just me? I'm still low level, only 19... but I seem to be losing threat to lower-level DPS classes. I'm using just about full heirlooms available (I think I'm just missing the Heirloom Ring), but unless I'm spamming Dizzying Haze while Keg Smash is on CD, I cannot hold threat, even on a single target.

I also don't see any baked-in Threat Gen Increase to Stance of the Sturdy Ox. Blood Presence, Defensive Stance, Bear Form, and Rightous Fury all boast an increase to threat generation. I don't see that listed anywhere in Stance of the Sturdy Ox. Is it just not added into the text for the ability, or is it actually missing in entirety?

Also... Has there been any word about a modification to the Dizzying Haze debuff? I've noticed that targets that are immune to Movement Speed Decreases don't get the Debuff applied to them, meaning we don't have access to the 3% chance Misfire chance.

Anyways. Any information would be appreciated. Really love Brewmaster, in theory. But in practice... I might have to go Mistweaver/Windcaller. >:
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86 Undead Death Knight
10495
Sturdy Ox has the same threat mod that other Tank classes have built in, it just doesn't say it on the tooltip. I had a few threat issues early on but it cleared up fast.

The Dizzying Haze debuff doesn't apply to Slow-Immune mobs, which would be fine (the 3% reflect chance isn't necessary) but it means we can't Smash->Breath of Fire on raid bosses. Oh well.
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
14035
Except that the 3% Reflect Chance is effectively a 3% increased miss chance. Unless I'm interpretting it wrong. I would assume that a mis-fired attack would count as a "missed" attack. Yay/nay?

Maybe I'll just swap to Windwalker for Questing... run dungeons after LvL 30 as Mistweaver when I can dual-spec...
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