It's Coming...

90 Worgen Death Knight
9190
... on October 12. Atlas Shrugged Part 2.

I can't wait.
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90 Tauren Priest
4490
Ayn Rand was a psychopath who promoted a selfish society with little to no morality. In her review of Atlas Shrugged, the great Dorothy Parker said it best: "This is not a novel to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force."
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90 Worgen Death Knight
9190
Ayn Rand was a visionary who made it known that it's okay to be proud of your accomplishments, that no person is beholden to their society, and that society can only thrive when creative, motivated people are left to do what they do, and charge what they want, without interference from the government or the whining of members of society who attempt to take through guilt or force what they can't create for themselves.

And it's well-represented in the movie. :D
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90 Tauren Priest
4490
Her attitude was basically "I am all that is important; every man for himself." This was reflected in the fact that she was an atheist and pro-abortion.
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90 Troll Shaman
15790
09/28/2012 10:22 PMPosted by Cowbacca
pro-abortion.


Pretty much no one is pro-abortion...

That being said, Ayn rand focuses too much on oneself's personal accomplishments and typically forgets that we are a society, the society needs to work together
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90 Worgen Death Knight
9190
This is in part what the book and movie are about: that while we are a society, we are a society of individuals who, if left to succeed (or fail) on their own, will benefit society through innovation and the ability to sell those innovations at a price set by the creator; if the price is too high, the creator either fails through lack of sales or adjusts prices. Society chooses the best product, and pays accordingly.

So while on the surface the story may seem to be about "every man for himself", in reality the story is "Let every man succeed on his own merits, and benefit society to the degree that he chooses, instead of the degree to which he's forced."
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90 Troll Shaman
15790
Which sounds good but fails in the aspect that true capitalism and true communism fail. Human greed.

Personally i find the whole thing a bit judgemental for my liking, I plan on helping everyone I can and have done so my entire life. When i get extra money I may spend some on myself but I also try to help out others as much as I can which goes against the story told in the book.
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90 Tauren Priest
4490
Which sounds good but fails in the aspect that true capitalism and true communism fail. Human greed.

Personally i find the whole thing a bit judgemental for my liking, I plan on helping everyone I can and have done so my entire life. When i get extra money I may spend some on myself but I also try to help out others as much as I can which goes against the story told in the book.


This is how I've always felt as well. The only system that really works is a social democracy, where there is an equal balance of socialism and capitalism.
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90 Worgen Death Knight
9190
Which sounds good but fails in the aspect that true capitalism and true communism fail. Human greed.

Personally i find the whole thing a bit judgemental for my liking, I plan on helping everyone I can and have done so my entire life. When i get extra money I may spend some on myself but I also try to help out others as much as I can which goes against the story told in the book.


I'm actually in the same boat as you are, and that's what the movie (hopefully) communicates, and what the book definitely communicates: helping others should be an available choice, but it should be a choice, not a mandated option, socially or otherwise.

I work hard for my money, so I can do things like spend it on movies, books, and World of Warcraft (amongst other things of course). As a result, while I choose to be generous with it, that generosity comes as a result of knowing I don't have to be generous with it.

The instant someone tells me I have to (the government, a social expectation, etc.), I'm functionally in slavery: the product of my labor (my money) is no longer 100% mine to dispose of. Since that product is the reason I labor, I thus don't own my work, and have little incentive to do as well, which means my employer receives lower quality, which then harms the company as others follow suit.

But when my money is mine to do with as I will (which is what this book and movie advocate), then I can choose to be generous to charity and those in need, and not feel that indulging those social luxuries negatively impacts the value I receive from my work.
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27 Tauren Paladin
130
09/28/2012 10:22 PMPosted by Cowbacca
Her attitude was basically "I am all that is important; every man for himself." This was reflected in the fact that she was an atheist and pro-abortion.


what's wrong being athiest? (no im not one, but seriously whats wrong with that?)
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90 Troll Mage
15740
I dont really mind the being forced part so much, as long as its getting done.

Although at the end of the day I am essentially supporting a lot of those same ideas since I have been campaigning and will be voting for Gary Johnson.

Edit: by the way if you dont have the one addon, This is Taluun's main. Hi :D
Edited by Hiroran on 10/2/2012 5:26 AM PDT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
2485
09/28/2012 10:22 PMPosted by Cowbacca
Her attitude was basically "I am all that is important; every man for himself." This was reflected in the fact that she was an atheist and pro-abortion.


Please demonstrate that atheist prochoicers are more selfish than theist pro-lifers.
Edited by Misbelief on 10/2/2012 5:47 AM PDT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
2485
ITT people still believe in free will.
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90 Tauren Priest
4490
Which sounds good but fails in the aspect that true capitalism and true communism fail. Human greed.

Personally i find the whole thing a bit judgemental for my liking, I plan on helping everyone I can and have done so my entire life. When i get extra money I may spend some on myself but I also try to help out others as much as I can which goes against the story told in the book.


I'm actually in the same boat as you are, and that's what the movie (hopefully) communicates, and what the book definitely communicates: helping others should be an available choice, but it should be a choice, not a mandated option, socially or otherwise.

I work hard for my money, so I can do things like spend it on movies, books, and World of Warcraft (amongst other things of course). As a result, while I choose to be generous with it, that generosity comes as a result of knowing I don't have to be generous with it.

The instant someone tells me I have to (the government, a social expectation, etc.), I'm functionally in slavery: the product of my labor (my money) is no longer 100% mine to dispose of. Since that product is the reason I labor, I thus don't own my work, and have little incentive to do as well, which means my employer receives lower quality, which then harms the company as others follow suit.

But when my money is mine to do with as I will (which is what this book and movie advocate), then I can choose to be generous to charity and those in need, and not feel that indulging those social luxuries negatively impacts the value I receive from my work.


The problem is that we then kick certain members of society to the side: the disabled, the elderly, the veterans, and those who are just down on their luck. Another thing is that, if we don't pay taxes, then where will our government get funds for our police and military, public roads, public education, the FDA, etc.?

Her attitude was basically "I am all that is important; every man for himself." This was reflected in the fact that she was an atheist and pro-abortion.


what's wrong being athiest? (no im not one, but seriously whats wrong with that?)


There's nothing wrong with being atheist. My point was that an atheist obviously doesn't believe there is anything beyond themselves, which can come from a selfish personality. And from her interviews, Ayn Rand strikes me as a selfish person.
Edited by Cowbacca on 10/2/2012 7:24 AM PDT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
2485


I'm actually in the same boat as you are, and that's what the movie (hopefully) communicates, and what the book definitely communicates: helping others should be an available choice, but it should be a choice, not a mandated option, socially or otherwise.

I work hard for my money, so I can do things like spend it on movies, books, and World of Warcraft (amongst other things of course). As a result, while I choose to be generous with it, that generosity comes as a result of knowing I don't have to be generous with it.

The instant someone tells me I have to (the government, a social expectation, etc.), I'm functionally in slavery: the product of my labor (my money) is no longer 100% mine to dispose of. Since that product is the reason I labor, I thus don't own my work, and have little incentive to do as well, which means my employer receives lower quality, which then harms the company as others follow suit.

But when my money is mine to do with as I will (which is what this book and movie advocate), then I can choose to be generous to charity and those in need, and not feel that indulging those social luxuries negatively impacts the value I receive from my work.


The problem is that we then kick certain members of society to the side: the disabled, the elderly, the veterans, and those who are just down on their luck. Another thing is that, if we don't pay taxes, then where will our government get funds for our police and military, public roads, public education, the FDA, etc.?



what's wrong being athiest? (no im not one, but seriously whats wrong with that?)


There's nothing wrong with being atheist. My point was that an atheist obviously doesn't believe there is anything beyond themselves, which can come from a selfish personality. And from her interviews, Ayn Rand strikes me as a selfish person.
Ayn rand doesn't believe in anything beyond herself, a good portion of atheists are secular humanists. Also...Ayn Rand is most influential to conservatives who are christians than atheists who tend to be liberal.

Also "Anything beyond themselves" is incredibly vague, you should just say god and stop being intellectually dishonest, because one could say the universe is beyond us, yet I'm sure you know almost all atheists believe the universe exists. I would also like for you to explain how belief in god is less selfish than a lack of that belief.

Not only is what you said not obviously true, it's demonstrably false.
Edited by Misbelief on 10/2/2012 9:20 AM PDT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
2485
Which sounds good but fails in the aspect that true capitalism and true communism fail. Human greed.

Personally i find the whole thing a bit judgemental for my liking, I plan on helping everyone I can and have done so my entire life. When i get extra money I may spend some on myself but I also try to help out others as much as I can which goes against the story told in the book.


I'm actually in the same boat as you are, and that's what the movie (hopefully) communicates, and what the book definitely communicates: helping others should be an available choice, but it should be a choice, not a mandated option, socially or otherwise.

I work hard for my money, so I can do things like spend it on movies, books, and World of Warcraft (amongst other things of course). As a result, while I choose to be generous with it, that generosity comes as a result of knowing I don't have to be generous with it.

The instant someone tells me I have to (the government, a social expectation, etc.), I'm functionally in slavery: the product of my labor (my money) is no longer 100% mine to dispose of. Since that product is the reason I labor, I thus don't own my work, and have little incentive to do as well, which means my employer receives lower quality, which then harms the company as others follow suit.

But when my money is mine to do with as I will (which is what this book and movie advocate), then I can choose to be generous to charity and those in need, and not feel that indulging those social luxuries negatively impacts the value I receive from my work.


ITT idiot calls taxes slavery.
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90 Tauren Priest
4490
10/02/2012 09:13 AMPosted by Misbelief
a good portion of atheists are secular humanists. Also...Ayn Rand is most influential to conservatives who are christians than atheists who tend to be liberal.


I can't understand how a person can be both a christian and an objectivist, since Rand's teachings and Christ's teachings are complete opposites.
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90 Worgen Death Knight
9190
10/02/2012 11:00 AMPosted by Cowbacca
a good portion of atheists are secular humanists. Also...Ayn Rand is most influential to conservatives who are christians than atheists who tend to be liberal.


I can't understand how a person can be both a christian and an objectivist, since Rand's teachings and Christ's teachings are complete opposites.


This is accurate. Ayn Rand was an atheist, rejecting the concept of an unseen God solely on the basis that since He couldn't be seen with the senses, which were the only viable method of determining reality for her, that He didn't exist.

This said, taxes aren't slavery; taxes on income are. At that point, the government is saying it has a right to a portion of your effort as a "price" for living in the country. Sales taxes are fine, as it's the government-facilitated free-market economy that makes such a purchase possible to begin with. The same argument could conceivably be made for an economy that allows you to work as you choose, but at that point it ceases being about the purchase of goods and becomes the purchase of human beings: it's the government saying it has a right to the fruits of your labors for no reason other than that it's your government, which isn't something an Objectivist would support.

All of this aside, the reality of even mentioning Atlas Shrugged, whether in movie form or the book, causing discussion like this is evidence that the movie has some merit, if only as a conversation piece.

10 days. Prepare yourselves!
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90 Troll Mage
15740
I guess I should elaborate something else, my argument above do not mean I am opposed to those ideas, I think they could work out just fine but I am a bit apprehensive. At the end of it all I agree with you more than I disagree with you Ragefang.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
2485


I can't understand how a person can be both a christian and an objectivist, since Rand's teachings and Christ's teachings are complete opposites.


This is accurate. Ayn Rand was an atheist, rejecting the concept of an unseen God solely on the basis that since He couldn't be seen with the senses, which were the only viable method of determining reality for her, that He didn't exist.

This said, taxes aren't slavery; taxes on income are. At that point, the government is saying it has a right to a portion of your effort as a "price" for living in the country. Sales taxes are fine, as it's the government-facilitated free-market economy that makes such a purchase possible to begin with. The same argument could conceivably be made for an economy that allows you to work as you choose, but at that point it ceases being about the purchase of goods and becomes the purchase of human beings: it's the government saying it has a right to the fruits of your labors for no reason other than that it's your government, which isn't something an Objectivist would support.

All of this aside, the reality of even mentioning Atlas Shrugged, whether in movie form or the book, causing discussion like this is evidence that the movie has some merit, if only as a conversation piece.

10 days. Prepare yourselves!

You don't live in a Vacuum, your actions effect others, you live in a society. Taxes are something each individual pays due to being a part, so that we can help each other and they help us. The roads you use, the schools our children go to....Also taxes help out those that aren't as fortunate as Ayn Rand and yourself. Pays for schools, firefighters, people to not die in hospitals.

When you actually look into patterns that arise specifically based on region and demographic, you learn that people are products of their environments, and that product usually isn't very good unless it's upbringing and genetics favor it. In other words, George bush didn't become president because he worked hard. So we should definitely help those that aren't as lucky due to them being in unfortunate circumstances.

Income tax is slavery....god....This is why people don't take Ayn Rand or her cult followers seriously.
Edited by Misbelief on 10/2/2012 12:00 PM PDT
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