Illidan should totally be redeemed as a monk.

85 Worgen Rogue
10845
10/02/2012 08:17 PMPosted by Ferlion
If nothing else, Illidan needs to be part of the Night Elf story to balance out Malfurion.


Very much agreed.

I feel the Blood Elves have enough sly, under-the-table, magic obsessed characters and Illidan would just oversaturate it. (I understand the Blood Elves need better characters at the forefront, but that's what I think Rommath and Halduron should be for.)
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90 Human Monk
2665
10/02/2012 07:42 PMPosted by Kynrind
Good reasons for -you-. It is reaching especially since you are ignoring how it would radically change what makes Illidan, Illidan.


Actually I think this is a case where I understand Illidan's character better than you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you ever even play WCIII or its expansion yet?



So you want them to further screw over a character and have him come back from the dead... (speaking of which, how would he have survived being killed at the Black Temple?) and radically change him from the power hungry egotistical psychopathic demon that is Illidan into a peace loving centered Night elf with wings, horns and hooves?


You mean how that Satyr was able to kill himself and come back as a Night Elf in Ashenvale?



I already explained it. If you didn't read it, I'm not repeating it.



Tcha.. Right. He's better off staying dead where Blizzard can't mess him up anymore. If they did make him a monk, a LOT of people would be pissed as hell.


I contend that. Because it would all come down to how competent the story behind it is.



10/02/2012 07:42 PMPosted by Kynrind
A Naaru? Nope. They can't do jack about demons. Or they would have fixed the Broken and Lost Ones years ago. The only thing that could possibly change Illidan is Elune (she changed a satyr back into a Night elf), and she has no reason too.


Uh...the Broken and Lost Ones aren't demons. They're degenerate mutants.

Don't make up lore.



He couldn't be reborn wingless, hornless or hoofless on the alter either. Those are a part of his body now. The man is at least half demon and there's nothing lower than a god that can change that. Unless Blizzard pulls something out of it's rear to somehow ignore -every- bit of lore it's said about how -any- changed wrought by fel magic is permanent.


10/02/2012 07:42 PMPosted by Kynrind
If there were no warriors as a class, does that mean that warriors wouldn't exist as a class?


YES!

We would have Footmen, Grunts, Braves, etc. You could classify them as warriors, yes, but they wouldn't be warriors in the sense that they throw out mortal strike, harness their rage, and are forced to wear plate armor(especially since Grunts and Braves typically don't).



I covered those points above. The changes to Illidan are permanent. They were created by fel energy and so far Blizzard has been firm in saying that -any- physical changes by fel energy are permanent. The eredar that became the Man'ari, their change is permanent and it was done by fel energy. Why wouldn't Illidans be permanent?


Because Illidan wasn't a mutation derived as a side effect. He was deliberately changed, the same way Xavius was. And Xavius's change obviously wasn't permanent either, seeing as how his future was to be a tree.



10/02/2012 07:42 PMPosted by Kynrind
He never did care what others thought of him. Not really, except for Tyrande and Malfurion.


You mean two of the three people he interacted with at all in the Night Elf campaigns?

We don't know how Illidan is with other Night Elves, since all the other characters he ever interacted with were from other races. And he didn't care what they thought, because he made them swear fealty to him.



10/02/2012 07:42 PMPosted by Kynrind
Whereas Jaina does care for her people and sacrifices a lot for them at her own expense. Jaina = self sacrifice. Illidan = selfish narcissist.


None of that has absolutely anything to do with my point that a change in the plot can change a character.



10/02/2012 07:42 PMPosted by Kynrind
I'll believe it when I see it.


'kay.



10/02/2012 07:42 PMPosted by Kynrind
It would ruin Illidan already beyond what his is now


Well all I ever see you do is complain about Night Elves anyways, so what would the difference be?



As it is, his redemption to others is going to have to be forced down our throats.


I'm not quite sure that word means what you think it means.



10/02/2012 07:42 PMPosted by Kynrind
... and please, you're not cute.


Girl, say that after you've seen my facebook profile pic.

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/477603_449005305128707_1683618290_o.jpg
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
If there were no warriors as a class, does that mean that warriors wouldn't exist as a class?


Think of the difference between a priest and a priestess of the moon.

Priestess of the Moon exists. It's not a priests. It's not a warrior.
"Classes" as we know them don't exist in game in most cases. We play in broad strokes.
Unless Golden is writing, and then by god your going to have hunters as a direct translation.

Very much agreed.


I'm almost of the opinion that Malfurion and Illidan shouldn't be considered separate characters. Sure, they should have their own distinct personalities, faults, strengths, ect.. But they need to play off of each other to work.

Hmm.. Not sure if I'm explaining that right.
Edited by Ferlion on 10/2/2012 8:47 PM PDT
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90 Human Monk
2665
10/02/2012 08:47 PMPosted by Ferlion
Hmm.. Not sure if I'm explaining that right.


Yeah you are. It's like the Twins in FF2. Or was it 4? The Japanese kind of messed up the numbers back then.

Some characters simply only work if they have a close sibling with whom to "play" off of in the story. Malfurion was probably made to be a wise but close-minded person in WCIII to play off of Illidan's open-minded but hate-filled personality.

And in the end Tyrande has always gotten hosed no matter what happens. Literally, the time she fell of the bridge.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
Literally, the time she fell of the bridge.


Hey, it was still one of the most kick !@# moments in the series, when you realize this lady held off an army with a few sentinels.

Though, yeah. Tyrande needs to get out of that shadow.
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98 Night Elf Warrior
7045
Something odd I've noticed that could be meaningless, but check out the combat animations for the Jinyu in Pearlfin Village, the rogue class Jinyu especially. They seem to have custom combat stances as well as strikes.

The Jinyu rogues have this sweeping kind of strike and stance with all of their animations that really look perfect for glaive weapons instead of the daggers they are holding.

It makes me wonder considering they use night elf skeletons as a base, that they'd go so far and give them custom animated stances.
Edited by Elrith on 10/2/2012 9:24 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
10/02/2012 08:36 PMPosted by Draile
Actually I think this is a case where I understand Illidan's character better than you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you ever even play WCIII or its expansion yet?


I've never played that or the expansion. I have gotten my facts from WoWpedia and from people here that have played it.

You mean how that Satyr was able to kill himself and come back as a Night Elf in Ashenvale?

I already explained it. If you didn't read it, I'm not repeating it.


I've done that quest on quite a few characters. It's only by Elune's hand that he can do that and live. The satyr needed the orb whuch she had blessed. If she hadn't intervened, he -would- have died. No Elune, no changed satyr. And Elune has no reason to help Illidan. So my point stands. ONLY Elune has been able to remove the physical changes of fel corruption.

You mean two of the three people he interacted with at all in the Night Elf campaigns?

We don't know how Illidan is with other Night Elves, since all the other characters he ever interacted with were from other races. And he didn't care what they thought, because he made them swear fealty to him.


That should give you an idea of how he thinks of himself. He's an egotistical narcissistic glory seeking and power mad man. In all of the literature I've read, the only people who's opinion he cares about are Tyrande and Malfurion's. He couldn't give a damn about anyone else. Everything I have read says he is concerned about himself over anyone else.

10/02/2012 08:36 PMPosted by Draile
None of that has absolutely anything to do with my point that a change in the plot can change a character.


She at least has a damned good reason to change. What's Illidan's? Nothing he cares about has been destroyed or taken from him. He was still one of the toughest men around and through out his entire life, he's chased power. Arcane at first, then fel. I do not see that changing in him. If it does and he becomes the monk you want him to be, that's hardly Illidan. But a monk with the name of Illidan. Although I'm not sure why any Pandaren would teach a demon their moves and beliefs.


10/02/2012 08:36 PMPosted by Draile
Well all I ever see you do is complain about Night Elves anyways, so what would the difference be?


I complain about how much Blizzard has screwed over the Night elves compared to their presentation in WC3. Just like many other players.

10/02/2012 08:36 PMPosted by Draile
I'm not quite sure that word means what you think it means.


It has several meanings, including involving others. It's not just one person.

Girl, say that after you've seen my facebook profile pic.

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/477603_449005305128707_1683618290_o.jpg


.... pull that mask all the way up over your face. Please.

Uh...the Broken and Lost Ones aren't demons. They're degenerate mutants.

Don't make up lore.


I'm not making any lore up. ANY fel magic can change someone. Demons are a far more corrupted form of it. The Broken and Lost ones are a direct result of the use of fel magic in the form of the red mist. The fel energies in it mutated them and cut them all off from being able to feel the Light. The Naaru cannot fix that.
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90 Tauren Death Knight
11170

Thassarian and Koltira never saved the world. And if you haven't noticed, Koltira's a jerk and Thassarian, while honourable, also likes to solve his problems with violence and in one case, mild torture.


What does them saving the world have to do with anything I said? Also, by that logic, everyone in the entire game solves their problems using violence. Malfurion is violent for blowing up Archimonde with wisps or using Nature to help kill Ragnaros.

We the players see the good side of Demon Hunters(Note: It's not an "honorable" side. Honor has nothing to do with it. They're demon hunters; they hunt.)

Normal citizens of Azeroth do not see this side.


They're self-sacrificing; that is honorable. The Demon Hunter in Blasted Lands specifically sacrifices himself to destroy a Dreadlord. Also, what does the fact that only players see the good side of Demon Hunters have to do with anything? Death Knights walked into town and had fruit thrown at them, and yet, they're still playable.

As for Demon Hunters and Warlocks, yes they are essentially the same at this point. Demon Hunters are just specialists who value martial prowess. They use the same kind of magic(to the point where, according to the Meeting of the Six in-game book, they learned Illidan's techniques in Outland to learn Metamorphosis), they deal with the same themes, and have the same problems.


I wasn't aware that Demon Hunters had Evasion or could cast Immolation on themselves. That's half the unit that's different, and Metamorphosis works differently for Demon Hunters than it does for Warlocks. This also completely glosses over the fact that Warlocks are ranged spell casters while Demon Hunters are melee fighters with magic. As for themes, no. Warlocks deal with Fel magic in exchange for power. Demon Hunters deal in Fel magic in order to more effectively kill demons. Same source of power, but with very different motives.
Edited by Abal on 10/2/2012 11:11 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
10495
Bring back Gul'dan too, please.
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90 Human Monk
2665
10/02/2012 09:40 PMPosted by Kynrind
I've never played that or the expansion. I have gotten my facts from WoWpedia and from people here that have played it.


Well there you go. The information is useless without the context.

And really? You've had enough time to play WCIII by this point. It's even a digital download on Blizzard's online store.

For example, did you realize that when "Illidan" attacked that Night Elf village, he wasn't actually shown hurting anyone? It was the Naga, whom he asked to delay Maeiv, that attacked the village while he went straight to the ship.



10/02/2012 09:40 PMPosted by Kynrind
And Elune has no reason to help Illidan.


She could be given one, if the story necessitates it. Don't be so narrow-minded.

And it's even besides the point. We know Illidan is coming back. Arguing reasons as to why he can't is outrageously silly.



10/02/2012 09:40 PMPosted by Kynrind
That should give you an idea of how he thinks of himself. He's an egotistical narcissistic glory seeking and power mad man. In all of the literature I've read, the only people who's opinion he cares about are Tyrande and Malfurion's. He couldn't give a damn about anyone else. Everything I have read says he is concerned about himself over anyone else.


Again, this information is absolutely useless without the context of playing WCIII.

Or in Illidan's words:

Maiev: Illidan, you've gone mad!
Illidan: 10,000 years of isolation can do that to the mind




She at least has a damned good reason to change. What's Illidan's?


Well we don't really know yet now, do we?



10/02/2012 09:40 PMPosted by Kynrind
What's Illidan's? Nothing he cares about has been destroyed or taken from him.


Arthas showed that the best way to enact change in Illidan is to beat him up.


10/02/2012 09:40 PMPosted by Kynrind
Although I'm not sure why any Pandaren would teach a demon their moves and beliefs.


I already covered this! Pay attention!



10/02/2012 09:40 PMPosted by Kynrind
I complain about how much Blizzard has screwed over the Night elves compared to their presentation in WC3. Just like many other players.


You didn't play WCIII!



10/02/2012 09:40 PMPosted by Kynrind
It has several meanings, including involving others. It's not just one person.


That sounds like a fancy way of saying "I don't know what that means, but I'm not giving in to your sexy charms"



.... pull that mask all the way up over your face. Please.


This would make sense in the context of you not just seeing a picture of my dog and calling it a mask.



I'm not making any lore up. ANY fel magic can change someone. Demons are a far more corrupted form of it. The Broken and Lost ones are a direct result of the use of fel magic in the form of the red mist. The fel energies in it mutated them and cut them all off from being able to feel the Light. The Naaru cannot fix that.


Well no. Demons are a different kind of being entirely. They're linked to the Twisting Nether, and can be banished back there. If a Broken dies, he's just plain dead.

This is why people always question whether or not Illidan actually died, because of how far he became to be like a demon. He may have just died and gone to the Twisting Nether, where presumably Kil'Jaedan would have started torturing him like he did Ner'zhul. Except Illidan, being an actual demon, would be in a position to be tormented for eternity.

Or at least until someone decides to resurrect him.
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90 Human Monk
2665
10/02/2012 10:47 PMPosted by Abal
What does them saving the world have to do with anything I said?


The part where you were quoting me on my comment that the spiritually-based classes tend to save the world a whole lot while the magic-based ones tend to damn it.



10/02/2012 10:47 PMPosted by Abal
Also, by that logic, everyone in the entire game solves their problems using violence. Malfurion is violent for blowing up Archimonde with wisps or using Nature to help kill Ragnaros.


It's certainly not the same as what a Death Knight does. Wisps don't torture, treants don't feast on your soul, etc.

Well, maybe they do. Never really asked them.



10/02/2012 10:47 PMPosted by Abal
They're self-sacrificing; that is honorable. The Demon Hunter in Blasted Lands specifically sacrifices himself to destroy a Dreadlord. Also, what does the fact that only players see the good side of Demon Hunters have to do with anything? Death Knights walked into town and had fruit thrown at them, and yet, they're still playable.


Context. The average Night Elf has never liked Demon Hunters. Demon hunters just disagree with those average Night Elves.

We the players may see the good things they can accomplish because we're present when they do them. The average citizen does not.

As for honor? You seem to be forgetting, again, the context. Loramus in the Blasted Lands didn't do what he did out of any sense of honor. He did it because he was a Demon Hunter, and because that fate was what the Blood Mages of the Blasted Lands orchestrated to happen. Alliance-side, you get sent to a Draenei at the Dark Portal at the end who reveals that everything went down as the Gnome Blood Mage said it would in his note.



10/02/2012 10:47 PMPosted by Abal
I wasn't aware that Demon Hunters had Evasion or could cast Immolation on themselves.


Really? Because that was kind of what Demon Hunters came with in WCIII. Did you play that one?

Joking aside, I know you meant Warlocks.

Aside from the fact that Warlocks CAN cast Immolation Aura on themselves, and have the actual spell Immolation, they didn't get evasion because of gameplay mechanics. Rogues got it instead. And Rogues aren't Demon Hunters either.



10/02/2012 10:47 PMPosted by Abal
That's half the unit that's different, and Metamorphosis works differently for Demon Hunters than it does for Warlocks.


How so? Demon Hunters in Meta in WCIII became a ranged caster that shot out shadow bolts that did Chaos damage, while still having access to Immolation Aura.



10/02/2012 10:47 PMPosted by Abal
This also completely glosses over the fact that Warlocks are ranged spell casters while Demon Hunters are melee fighters with magic.


Again, Meta made them ranged casters.

Also, as default units, Demon Hunters were often specced by players as ranged units. Their primary ranged damage spell, Mana Burn, was an absolute hero killer. And since they couldn't take much damage, a good player would often keep the DH mobile while using Mana Burn to decimate the enemy heroes.

Otherwise, players would spec Demon Hunters with Immolation Aura because it made them really handy in taking down creeps.

Seriously am I the only one here who actually played WCIII?



10/02/2012 10:47 PMPosted by Abal
As for themes, no. Warlocks deal with Fel magic in exchange for power. Demon Hunters deal in Fel magic in order to more effectively kill demons. Same source of power, but with very different motives.


That ultimately end the same. Or to quote Illidan and Kael'thas:

Illidan: Someday, Kael'thas, you will learn to control the demons.
Kael'thas: I would never become so depraved.


And don't forget, Warlocks of the Horde and Alliance also have the same motives to hunt down demons--just not demons exclusively. Their argument is that they can help their people out by using demonic magic. It's the same theme as Demon Hunters, and it was shown in the old warlock quests that were taken out in Cataclysm.
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90 Human Monk
2665
10/03/2012 03:59 AMPosted by Musubi
Bring back Gul'dan too, please.


Actually you can pretty much say that Arthas became the spiritual successor to Ner'zhul(Because he succeeded him as Lich King), and Illidan became the spiritual successor to Gul'dan(Because he consumed Gul'dan's skull).

And when you look at the duel between Arthas and Illidan at the end of WCIII:TFT, it was essentially the long-time coming symbolic final show down between Ner'zhul and Gul'dan. Only instead of fighting each other themselves, they used their puppets.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
Well there you go. The information is useless without the context.

And really? You've had enough time to play WCIII by this point. It's even a digital download on Blizzard's online store.

For example, did you realize that when "Illidan" attacked that Night Elf village, he wasn't actually shown hurting anyone? It was the Naga, whom he asked to delay Maeiv, that attacked the village while he went straight to the ship.


I do not have to have played it to have an opinion or have a good idea what happened in it. That's never -ever- been a requirement. There's a ton of information on WoWpedia and vids on YouTube, not to mention the people who have played it, so do not use that as an excuse to dismiss my thoughts and opinions. It belittles you.

She could be given one, if the story necessitates it. Don't be so narrow-minded.

And it's even besides the point. We know Illidan is coming back. Arguing reasons as to why he can't is outrageously silly.


if the story necessitates it. Do you know how stupid that phrase is? It means they can make up any reason and use that as lore. Knowing Blizzard, it will be asinine and stupid. There's been very little that Blizzard has done well in portraying their older characters.

And I know Illidan is coming back. I just hope they make it a cameo appearance and he's gone. As it is, it's going to make the Alliance look stupid when they forgive him for his crimes.

Again, this information is absolutely useless without the context of playing WCIII.

Or in Illidan's words:

Maiev: Illidan, you've gone mad!
Illidan: 10,000 years of isolation can do that to the mind


I covered that above. Using that as an excuse to ignore my words is on par with Vyrin's dismissal of peoples opinions since they do not meet his 'highly educated level of knowledge'. You do not have to have played the game to know about what happened in it. There's a wealth of information out there about WC3.

10/03/2012 06:16 AMPosted by Draile
I already covered this! Pay attention!


You extended the reasons they would teach mortals and playable races to include demon. I think you would say they would teach felguards and succubi too, right?

10/03/2012 06:16 AMPosted by Draile
Arthas showed that the best way to enact change in Illidan is to beat him up.


What change? He didn't change, unless you call running away to gather even more power and enslave an entire world changing..

10/03/2012 06:16 AMPosted by Draile
You didn't play WCIII!


That's irrelevant to the argument at hand and I covered it above.

Well no. Demons are a different kind of being entirely. They're linked to the Twisting Nether, and can be banished back there. If a Broken dies, he's just plain dead.

This is why people always question whether or not Illidan actually died, because of how far he became to be like a demon. He may have just died and gone to the Twisting Nether, where presumably Kil'Jaedan would have started torturing him like he did Ner'zhul. Except Illidan, being an actual demon, would be in a position to be tormented for eternity.

Or at least until someone decides to resurrect him.


Satyrs are demons too and they all were mortal beings at first. Illidan was changed in similar ways. In his case by consuming Gul'dan's skull. It corrupted him enough to make him part demon. Unless Blizzard changes that lore, such alterations are always permanent. Like the orcs, Blood elves, Broken and Lost Ones, those are permanent changes. Changes that not even the Naaru can fix.

The assumption that he would have been banished to the Twisting nether when he was killed is a fan fic. The only demons it is conformed that can come back are the dreadlords. The other demons are pretty much dead forever as far as I know. when you kill them, game mechanics aside.

10/03/2012 06:16 AMPosted by Draile
That sounds like a fancy way of saying "I don't know what that means, but I'm not giving in to your sexy charms"


Hardly. There are several definitions and they do not limit redemption to just the one person doing it. How else do you think people can redeem themselves in the eyes of other people? Redemption isn't so limited as you are wanting it to be.

10/03/2012 06:16 AMPosted by Draile
This would make sense in the context of you not just seeing a picture of my dog and calling it a mask.


Why do you think I told you to pull the mask all the way up?
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90 Tauren Death Knight
11170

The part where you were quoting me on my comment that the spiritually-based classes tend to save the world a whole lot while the magic-based ones tend to damn it.


Illidan saved the world. That was the entire point. Even when he saved the Well of Eternity, that has helped the world due to Nordrassil. Malfurion was just too narrow-minded to see it. Furthermore, Jaina helped save the world at the Battle of Mount Hyjal. It looks like she may help save it again by dethroning Garrosh Hellscream. Also, the Knights of the Ebon Blade played an integral part in the storming of Icecrown Citadel; the Ashen Verdict was, specifically, a melding of the Argent Crusade and the Ebon Blade. Just because Darion Mograine wasn't at the fall of the Lich King doesn't meant they don't deserve some of the credit. In fact, the existence of Shadowmourne and its likely canon role in the hands of a player is all due to Darion Mograine and the Ebon Blade.

It's certainly not the same as what a Death Knight does. Wisps don't torture, treants don't feast on your soul, etc.


As far as we're aware, neither do Thaurissan, Koltira, or even Darion. The only thing we know they must do is cause pain, and the former two, at least, seem to do that through legitimate war.

Context. The average Night Elf has never liked Demon Hunters. Demon hunters just disagree with those average Night Elves.

We the players may see the good things they can accomplish because we're present when they do them. The average citizen does not.


I don't understand what you are trying to get at here. The context is irrelevant because Warlocks and Death Knights, who are disliked by the majority of average citizens, are playable.

As for honor? You seem to be forgetting, again, the context. Loramus in the Blasted Lands didn't do what he did out of any sense of honor. He did it because he was a Demon Hunter, and because that fate was what the Blood Mages of the Blasted Lands orchestrated to happen. Alliance-side, you get sent to a Draenei at the Dark Portal at the end who reveals that everything went down as the Gnome Blood Mage said it would in his note.


Why did he become a Demon Hunter? Surely it wasn't just because he wanted to kill something with no moral backlash. Almost all of the Demon Hunters chose their path in order to preserve their cultures and races. That's self-sacrifice.

Really? Because that was kind of what Demon Hunters came with in WCIII. Did you play that one?

Joking aside, I know you meant Warlocks.

Aside from the fact that Warlocks CAN cast Immolation Aura on themselves, and have the actual spell Immolation, they didn't get evasion because of gameplay mechanics. Rogues got it instead. And Rogues aren't Demon Hunters either.


Whoops. . .thanks for noticing that and correcting me. It was late when I posted that. =X

As for Immolation Aura, I honestly did not know that as I haven't seriously played a Warlock since. . .2005? Still, it requires the Warlock to be in Metamorphosis. Demon Hunters did not need to do that. As for Rogues getting Evasion, it is irrelevant. Warlocks received Death Coil and many thought that would discount Death Knights would be playable. Yet, here I am posting, with the ability to use Death Coil. Not to mention that Evasion for a Demon Hunter is passive while the Rogue ability is active.

To answer your question about a niche they would fill, there is always a need for more tanks as well as utility. Demon Hunters could be mail wearing tanks (Loramus seems to wear mail) and melee DPS. They could also have mana utility by acting as a mana battery. There are various things to do with Demon Hunters that could differentiate them significantly from Warlocks. All that's needed is a little creativity.

How so? Demon Hunters in Meta in WCIII became a ranged caster that shot out shadow bolts that did Chaos damage, while still having access to Immolation Aura.


I must have been tired. I'll concede this, they are quite similar.

However, I did remember that Warlocks do not have Mana Burn. Shadow Priests do.

Again, Meta made them ranged casters.

Also, as default units, Demon Hunters were often specced by players as ranged units. Their primary ranged damage spell, Mana Burn, was an absolute hero killer. And since they couldn't take much damage, a good player would often keep the DH mobile while using Mana Burn to decimate the enemy heroes.

Otherwise, players would spec Demon Hunters with Immolation Aura because it made them really handy in taking down creeps.

Seriously am I the only one here who actually played WCIII?


Don't get smug. Not only did I play Warcraft III, but I was competitive with the Night Elves. I never used a DH as a primarily ranged caster as I was quick enough to take advantage of Evasion and Immolation Aura. Mana Burn was useful at the beginning of an engagement or on retreat. Metamorphosis was good during a siege, but only in late game.

That ultimately end the same. Or to quote Illidan and Kael'thas:

Illidan: Someday, Kael'thas, you will learn to control the demons.
Kael'thas: I would never become so depraved.


Illidan's death was not because he had succumbed to the demons. It was because of his defeat. He worked for Kil'jaeden because their goals aligned: to kill Arthas. After that, he retreated into solitude out of fear and self-loathing. Also, Loramus did not succumb. Neither has Feronas Sindweller in Felwood.

And don't forget, Warlocks of the Horde and Alliance also have the same motives to hunt down demons--just not demons exclusively. Their argument is that they can help their people out by using demonic magic. It's the same theme as Demon Hunters, and it was shown in the old warlock quests that were taken out in Cataclysm.


The Council of Six Daggers very clearly states that, while they are interested in preserving the world, they are primarily interested in power. Demon Hunters seek power as a means to an end. Power is the end of a Warlock's means. They are different goals.
Edited by Abal on 10/3/2012 10:00 AM PDT
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90 Human Monk
2665
I do not have to have played it to have an opinion or have a good idea what happened in it. That's never -ever- been a requirement. There's a ton of information on WoWpedia and vids on YouTube, not to mention the people who have played it, so do not use that as an excuse to dismiss my thoughts and opinions. It belittles you.


You really do. You take everything out of context. Watching cut scenes on youtube isn't even enough; there's dialogue that comes about in the actual gameplay as well. Not to mention all the other details, like how Satyr have Night Elven buildings for bases, Skeletal archers in ashenvale, etc...

if the story necessitates it. Do you know how stupid that phrase is? It means they can make up any reason and use that as lore.


Well yeah that is how story creation works.



Knowing Blizzard, it will be asinine and stupid. There's been very little that Blizzard has done well in portraying their older characters.


Why do you play this game if you're so angry over it?



You extended the reasons they would teach mortals and playable races to include demon. I think you would say they would teach felguards and succubi too, right?


Nope, I gave out an entire scenario with details about Highborne indoctrination and everything.



10/03/2012 08:28 AMPosted by Kynrind
What change? He didn't change, unless you call running away to gather even more power and enslave an entire world changing..


Yes I would. That and the fact that Malfurion came right out and said Illidan's fight with Arthas made him crazy.



Satyrs are demons too and they all were mortal beings at first. Illidan was changed in similar ways. In his case by consuming Gul'dan's skull. It corrupted him enough to make him part demon. Unless Blizzard changes that lore, such alterations are always permanent. Like the orcs, Blood elves, Broken and Lost Ones, those are permanent changes. Changes that not even the Naaru can fix.


Except for that one Satyr in Ashenvale who proved it wasn't permanent, right?



Hardly. There are several definitions and they do not limit redemption to just the one person doing it. How else do you think people can redeem themselves in the eyes of other people? Redemption isn't so limited as you are wanting it to be.


Well I do know redemption doesn't mean "Everyone is okay with the stupid crap you did, so don't worry about it you're cool".



10/03/2012 08:28 AMPosted by Kynrind
Why do you think I told you to pull the mask all the way up?


I'm too cute to know what you're talking about here.
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90 Human Monk
2665
10/03/2012 09:55 AMPosted by Abal
Illidan saved the world. That was the entire point. Even when he saved the Well of Eternity, that has helped the world due to Nordrassil. Malfurion was just too narrow-minded to see it. Furthermore, Jaina helped save the world at the Battle of Mount Hyjal. It looks like she may help save it again by dethroning Garrosh Hellscream. Also, the Knights of the Ebon Blade played an integral part in the storming of Icecrown Citadel; the Ashen Verdict was, specifically, a melding of the Argent Crusade and the Ebon Blade. Just because Darion Mograine wasn't at the fall of the Lich King doesn't meant they don't deserve some of the credit. In fact, the existence of Shadowmourne and its likely canon role in the hands of a player is all due to Darion Mograine and the Ebon Blade.


It was Illidan and Malfurion who caused The Sundering. And I'm pretty sure Malfurion was given all the good credit for it.

No one viewed what Illidan did on top Mt.Hyjal as "saving the world". They had to plant a big tree there and bless it just to cover up the mess.

You're also giving Jaina credit for the battle of Mt.Hyjal just for showing up. But Malfurion, Tyrande and Thrall were there--with the two Elves playing a more prominent role.

You also by this logic can't give all the credit to the Ebon Blade. We're talking about who takes the spot light here, and that was Bolvar and Tirion--both Paladins.

I mean heck, we as players constantly save the world but we're a part of a diverse group.





As far as we're aware, neither do Thaurissan, Koltira, or even Darion. The only thing we know they must do is cause pain, and the former two, at least,
seem to do that through legitimate war.


Thassarin tortured in Alliance questing. Granted, it was a Lich.

Although you keep spelling his name as the Emperor of the Dark Irons.




10/03/2012 09:55 AMPosted by Abal
I don't understand what you are trying to get at here. The context is irrelevant because Warlocks and Death Knights, who are disliked by the majority of average citizens, are playable.


We were talking about honorable, not playable.



10/03/2012 09:55 AMPosted by Abal
Why did he become a Demon Hunter? Surely it wasn't just because he wanted to kill something with no moral backlash. Almost all of the Demon Hunters chose their path in order to preserve their cultures and races. That's self-sacrifice.


I don't know of any recorded Demon Hunters who pursued their path for their people. Assuming all Demon Hunters picked it up to follow Illidan's beliefs, they did it to be effective hunters of demons and, often, because it was a path that allowed them to wield magic. Something that was until recently illegal in Night Elven culture---why would the reclusive Demon Hunters want to preserve that?



10/03/2012 09:55 AMPosted by Abal
As for Immolation Aura, I honestly did not know that as I haven't seriously played a Warlock since. . .2005? Still, it requires the Warlock to be in Metamorphosis. Demon Hunters did not need to do that. As for Rogues getting Evasion, it is irrelevant. Warlocks received Death Coil and many thought that would discount Death Knights would be playable. Yet, here I am posting, with the ability to use Death Coil. Not to mention that Evasion for a Demon Hunter is passive while the Rogue ability is active.


Gameplay mechanics. Don't even bother trying to put that into lore, it doesn't work and not even Blizzard tries to do that.

Warlocks also started off as demonic mages in WoW, but they also had some scourge-themed spells, including being able to use their spell stone to have some sort of anti-magic shell effect at one point I believe.



10/03/2012 09:55 AMPosted by Abal
To answer your question about a niche they would fill, there is always a need for more tanks as well as utility. Demon Hunters could be mail wearing tanks (Loramus seems to wear mail) and melee DPS. They could also have mana utility by acting as a mana battery. There are various things to do with Demon Hunters that could differentiate them significantly from Warlocks. All that's needed is a little creativity.


That just isn't enough. And Loramus wore plate shoulders with no shirt.

Demon Hunters wear no armor, generally. Blizzard only wants "mana batteries" in the game in the sense that there is the Refreshment buff, which is already spread throughout the classes and is not unique. Also, a half-naked tank is silly.

Again, Demon Hunters specialize in hit-and-run attacks that use a lot of mobility. Sounds a lot like monks to me.



I must have been tired. I'll concede this, they are quite similar.

However, I did remember that Warlocks do not have Mana Burn. Shadow Priests do.


Because instead they were given the Blood Mage ability, Mana Drain. Though Mana Burn in WCIII had a similar "Mana bolt" kind of animation to Mana Drain.

Again though, gameplay mechanics. None of the classes in WoW were meant to be a direct comparison to their WCIII counter-art heroes...except for Paladins and Death Knights.



10/03/2012 09:55 AMPosted by Abal
Don't get smug. Not only did I play Warcraft III, but I was competitive with the Night Elves. I never used a DH as a primarily ranged caster as I was quick enough to take advantage of Evasion and Immolation Aura. Mana Burn was useful at the beginning of an engagement or on retreat. Metamorphosis was good during a siege, but only in late game.


I'll concede this.



10/03/2012 09:55 AMPosted by Abal
Illidan's death was not because he had succumbed to the demons. It was because of his defeat. He worked for Kil'jaeden because their goals aligned: to kill Arthas. After that, he retreated into solitude out of fear and self-loathing. Also, Loramus did not succumb. Neither has Feronas Sindweller in Felwood.


What was your point here? I agree that Illidan was ultimately a good person. Except Blizzard decided Illidan's path would ultimately end with him become power-hungry and depraved. Or as he said to Magtheridon, "No, I've come here to replace you".



10/03/2012 09:55 AMPosted by Abal
The Council of Six Daggers very clearly states that, while they are interested in preserving the world, they are primarily interested in power. Demon Hunters seek power as a means to an end. Power is the end of a Warlock's means. They are different goals.


Those warlocks do. I could quote and debate you for hours citing the original warlock quests on how both Warlocks and Demon Hunters share the same themes.
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90 Human Monk
2665
10/03/2012 01:05 PMPosted by Wickham
It's nice that you're passionate about your own RP as a Demon-Hunter/Monk, Draile, but it's not going to happen for Illidan, who is the figure-head of demon hunters just as Arthas was for Death Knights.


Because it'd be totally weird if Arthas was a Paladin, right?

Oh wait.



10/03/2012 01:05 PMPosted by Wickham
Demon Hunters will be a combination of ranged and melee, with possibly a ranged spec thrown in and some rogue/martial artist abilities. However, saying demon hunters are monks is kind of out there... they are two separate things. It's kind of like playing a troll hunter and saying you're a shadow hunter.


Role playing a Troll hunter as a shadow hunter is fine. That's probably why Blizzard even gives Shadow Hunter NPCs bows.

Don't get me wrong, I totally admit some of this geekiness comes from my character(Though no, he was never a demon hunter in his backstory). But I think you've skipped too much of the conversation that has happened here. I've made logical sense of my reasoning for why I think it'd be a good idea many times(Though to be clear: My main focus is on Illidan's martial interests, not his magical ones--he doesn't need to become a monk for that), and as I said earlier the only good counter anyone has come up with is their hold-out belief that a Demon Hunter class is coming which, therefore means Illidan is too iconic as a Demon Hunter to not be one.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
10/03/2012 10:30 AMPosted by Draile
You really do. You take everything out of context. Watching cut scenes on youtube isn't even enough; there's dialogue that comes about in the actual gameplay as well. Not to mention all the other details, like how Satyr have Night Elven buildings for bases, Skeletal archers in ashenvale, etc...


So only people who have played WC1, 2 and 3 and the expansions can talk about them. Right.. What a load of crap. That's Vyrin like in cutting off anyone else's opinion or facts when talking about those games. You take that line of reasoning, apply it to other things and it shows how silly it is. Only those who have been/experienced/done/had happen to them, can talk about 'this' thing. That's a fallacy and dodges the question. It also ignores that Blizzard was adding in new stuff. The jump from WC3 to WoW added a LOT of new lore, and left a lot in the dust.

10/03/2012 10:30 AMPosted by Draile
Well yeah that is how story creation works.


And when it is bad story creation, it needs to be called out. Blizzard has made a good number of story blunders in the last few years, and is planning to do more. The Trials of the High King, the Alliance story in Cata, neutral factions are some examples of bad or potentially bad stories. One of the things that Blizzard has forgotten is that stories need to be consistent. Illidan becoming a monk with all of the thoughts and mentality is very much out of character for him.

Why do you play this game if you're so angry over it?


Because despite my anger at how Blizzard has screwed up the story, I love the lore. There's a reason my main is a Night elf. I like how they were portrayed in WC3 and the lore up to classic WoW. Since then Blizzard has been consistently stripping away what makes the Night elves unique and turning them into an orc punching bag.

10/03/2012 10:30 AMPosted by Draile
Yes I would. That and the fact that Malfurion came right out and said Illidan's fight with Arthas made him crazy.


It's arguable that he always was unstable because of his pursuit of power. He kept taking more extreme actions to get it. Him loosing to Arthas snapped the last remaining cord of sanity in his mind. Then the first thing he goes and does is to find even more power... He didn't change very much. He's still seeking power.

10/03/2012 10:30 AMPosted by Draile
Nope, I gave out an entire scenario with details about Highborne indoctrination and everything.


Which one was that? I can't find it. W@e've been arguing for the last several pages and I might have missed it.

10/03/2012 10:30 AMPosted by Draile
Except for that one Satyr in Ashenvale who proved it wasn't permanent, right?


Only because Elune herself directly intervened. If she hadn't blessed the orb, the satyr would have not been changed back. That is the only case in all of WoW of reversal for physical changes caused by fel energy, and it required an actual goddess to do it.

10/03/2012 10:30 AMPosted by Draile
Well I do know redemption doesn't mean "Everyone is okay with the stupid crap you did, so don't worry about it you're cool".


re·demp·tion [ri-demp-shuhn]
noun
1. an act of redeeming or the state of being redeemed.
2. deliverance; rescue.
3. Theology . deliverance from sin; salvation.
4. atonement for guilt.


That's from one site, there are others and none of them have a definition that limits it to just the person trying to redeem them self. Not even redeem or atone limit to just one person. Which is what you are doing.
Edited by Kynrind on 10/3/2012 1:32 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
10/03/2012 01:19 PMPosted by Draile
Though to be clear: My main focus is on Illidan's martial interests, not his magical ones--he doesn't need to become a monk for that), and as I said earlier the only good counter anyone has come up with is their hold-out belief that a Demon Hunter class is coming which, therefore means Illidan is too iconic as a Demon Hunter to not be one.


He could kick pretty much any monk's butt. He's one of the best hand to hand combat fighters in the world.
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