It is MY Bloodlust, thank you...

90 Pandaren Shaman
8340
I think there's two issues here:

1. Fight mechanics. Haven't gotten there, so I have no opinion. Sounds like it could go either way judging from reading others' responses. Also sounds like no big deal either way.

2. Raid cooldowns. In a raid situation, Bloodlust is clearly a group cooldown. The debuff means it can usually be used once per fight, and it is at least as important to group dps as to the healers. It is your ability, but because it causes a debuff on players, it's use is a group decision, typically made by the raid leader.

But....this is a dungeon, so pretty much do what you want unless the encounter requires it specifically. I can think of many fights where lust's timing makes things easier

That being said, the tank was jerky to you. I mean, he called for it, which is pretty normal for tanks to do. When it didn't happen until later, he shouldn't have made a big deal about it. Unfortunately, in your haste to respond to him, you and someone else died. That was the only mistake you made, imo. You don't have to take orders from the tank, but you do have to keep yourself and others alive. If I was making the post, I wouldn't have told everyone that I died while typing in chat, lol.

On a side note, I am not a fan of just blowing lust at the start of a fight. Most of the time it's useful, even necessary, later. Take Ultraxion, for example. Early in the DS expansion, I was of the opinion that using it later in the fight was better. The guild I was in got him down by waiting until the benefit helped the 2 healers as well as dps, basically 3 min in when the dps cooldowns were ready again. We got him down the first week with an average-skill group. After people overgeared the fights so much, it mattered less.

I see the benefits of using it at the beginning of the fight, but most of the time, lust makes some mechanic or enrage timer more beatable than it was before.
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44 Draenei Paladin
520
The following doesn't apply to raids, which have more situational mechanics, but in dungeons I prefer to blow it at the start of a fight for a few practical reasons:

- everyone is alive and has limited chances of standing in poo for a good part of its duration (simply because there's usually no poo for a while)

- the entire duration will be used

- the beginnings of most fights are tank and spank, and stationary DPS is always higher than mobile DPS; since they tend to blow their own CDs then, I might as well pop heroism too

After that, bosses start using their fancier tricks and everyone is expected to move a fair bit, which means they'll be relying on instants, procs, etc.

I usually run with my own tank, but if he's playing DPS and we get a random tank, I'll just use my judgment. While the dungeons are new, I'm always open to trying other people's ways, but once we have a tried-and-true strat, I just ignore suggestions that I know don't work as well. I can't cast and type at the same time, so no point in arguing with them.
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90 Draenei Shaman
12065
5 mans really don't matter. I try to pop hero at least twice in heroics(first and 3rd boss or 1st and last boss, etc..) But ultimately, it's not like you'll wipe if you don't use it.

Some people make a big deal out of little things, it's something I'll never understand...
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90 Troll Shaman
9080
10/02/2012 03:50 AMPosted by Felocity
Anyway, this isn't about when to pop my lust. I was well aware of the best time to pop it myself. This thread was about the fact that a random LFD tank thought he could order me around to use my spells just because he was the tank.


lol i guess with just lfr to lean on you deserve some slack here.
but its not "demanding you to use YOUR skills" then the party requests lust.

its not like their saying / screaming ascendence or some sort of personal CD.

Youll catch on though when you get past level 1.


1. It wasn't a raid. It was a random dungeon run.
2. The tank did demand that he use lust.
3. The tank then said, "You always listen to the tank. It is the tanks call for stuff like that."

I mean, I guess reading's hard when you're insistent on insulting someone for something mostly unrelated to the subject altogether.

In case you missed it, this has nothing to do with raiding. It has everything to do with a person being something of a jerk and presuming that they know how to play a person's class better than the person who leveled it. It has to do with the feeling of entitlement of that accompanied this tank specifically.

But, I guess I could write it in forum-speak.

lolwho needs lust in dungeons
herpderp
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90 Draenei Death Knight
6200
10/02/2012 07:20 AMPosted by Bosako


lol i guess with just lfr to lean on you deserve some slack here.
but its not "demanding you to use YOUR skills" then the party requests lust.

its not like their saying / screaming ascendence or some sort of personal CD.

Youll catch on though when you get past level 1.


1. It wasn't a raid. It was a random dungeon run.
2. The tank did demand that he use lust.
3. The tank then said, "You always listen to the tank. It is the tanks call for stuff like that."

I mean, I guess reading's hard when you're insistent on insulting someone for something mostly unrelated to the subject altogether.

In case you missed it, this has nothing to do with raiding. It has everything to do with a person being something of a jerk and presuming that they know how to play a person's class better than the person who leveled it. It has to do with the feeling of entitlement of that accompanied this tank specifically.

But, I guess I could write it in forum-speak.

lolwho needs lust in dungeons
herpderp


Just because -you- are the one to level 'that' class, doesn't mean you know it better than some one else. Otherwise, you wouldn't see people sucking it up. Like. Ever. Because according to you, by leveling your character, you instantly know more than everyone else.

For God's sake. If the tank is calling for a lust, it's probably because he or his buddies popped some cd's and lust would better benefit it. Don't worry about your little ego being broken by listening to some one and pop your damned spell.
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If I'm not in a raid: BL is my healing CD. I'll use it when I need the extra healing output.
If I'm in a raid: I use it exactly when the RL calls for it.

Just my 2c.
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90 Pandaren Hunter
7580
And if you gain healer agro, should the tank use HIS taunt spell to get it off of you, or just let you die? Using at the start of the boss fight , especially in these LOL easy mode heriocs/dungeons, only makes your CD come up that much quicker for the next encounter. So if that tank asked for it at the start, then maybe you wouldn't have died at all.
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Support classes should always try and improve the group, over trying to do anything else first.

I have always enjoyed this class not because it benefited me but because it makes groups feel like a Team.

If your group asks you for something mundane - that will not guarantee a wipe, well then why not.

Give em' Stormlash, lust em' up, use some healing rain for your healer & caster crew, get that stun totem in there on group mobs and relieve some dmg.

There are other things to do as a spiritual guide to your group. You don't always have to DPS or Spam Heal. You can utilize and improve the experience of your group - that is what makes a great Shaman.

Selfishness and resistance to teamwork are not in the Shaman code.
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85 Human Paladin
15625
10/02/2012 05:46 AMPosted by Aboutface
On a side note, I am not a fan of just blowing lust at the start of a fight. Most of the time it's useful, even necessary, later. Take Ultraxion, for example. Early in the DS expansion, I was of the opinion that using it later in the fight was better. The guild I was in got him down by waiting until the benefit helped the 2 healers as well as dps, basically 3 min in when the dps cooldowns were ready again. We got him down the first week with an average-skill group. After people overgeared the fights so much, it mattered less.


Actually, as the hero strategy on that fight was refined, it was pretty much concluded that you hero at the start to get the most out of it with dps, but with healers hitting their button so they don't get the debuff and can benefit from it later in the fight when they needed it. Basically, DPS want it at the beginning when everythings up, healers want it when they need to heal more faster (which is rarely at the start of a fight), which should never be happening in a heroic 5man, so you should just pop it at the start.
Edited by Kharoby on 10/2/2012 12:36 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
9080


1. It wasn't a raid. It was a random dungeon run.
2. The tank did demand that he use lust.
3. The tank then said, "You always listen to the tank. It is the tanks call for stuff like that."

I mean, I guess reading's hard when you're insistent on insulting someone for something mostly unrelated to the subject altogether.

In case you missed it, this has nothing to do with raiding. It has everything to do with a person being something of a jerk and presuming that they know how to play a person's class better than the person who leveled it. It has to do with the feeling of entitlement of that accompanied this tank specifically.

But, I guess I could write it in forum-speak.

lolwho needs lust in dungeons
herpderp


Just because -you- are the one to level 'that' class, doesn't mean you know it better than some one else. Otherwise, you wouldn't see people sucking it up. Like. Ever. Because according to you, by leveling your character, you instantly know more than everyone else.

For God's sake. If the tank is calling for a lust, it's probably because he or his buddies popped some cd's and lust would better benefit it. Don't worry about your little ego being broken by listening to some one and pop your damned spell.


And just because some tank comes into a run on the last boss and types something repeatedly doesn't make them any smarter either. It does make them rude and overly obsessed with something that won't make or break the outcome of a DUNGEON run.

The tank assumed that he knew better than the Shaman. The tank also assumed that repeating himself to the Shaman would make it go better -- as if Bloodlust is absolutely required.

How something is said is as important as the message. If it meant that much to the tank to have the Shaman blow Lust at the start, then that could have been discussed beforehand. However, as we all know, five mans tend to be low on communication.

And let's just get this out of the way...

Of course there are players who are better at multiple classes than others within the game. As you raid, it's something that you really see. In a dungeon, I've seen terrible tanks, dps, and healers, and I've seen great ones too. It usually takes more than one attempt or even one encounter to figure that out. Thankfully, it really doesn't matter because it's a DUNGEON run.

It's not serious business.

However, it can take all of thirty seconds to find out that one of your party members in a dungeon run is a jerk. When someone equates being the tank to being the unquestionable leader of a DUNGEON run, they're taking themselves way, way too seriously, and they're seeking to make others feel smaller. It's a bully's mentality.

What would this leader tank do if there were no Shaman, Mage, or Beastmaster Hunter present? Would they insist on pausing the run, kicking someone, and then waiting until they got a Shaman before they could proceed? No. They'd do the fight and get out of the dungeon.

But they'd still be a jerk.

That's what this is about. I've had people vehemently demand that I sleep a dragon while on my Shaman or to remove a curse (back when Shamans didn't have decurses). I've had people ask me for Battle Rezes. I've had people ask over and over for rezzes when combat has seemingly ended but hasn't officially ended, too. The requests have been all over.

It's hard to know if a person is smart quickly, but it doesn't take long to tell if someone is a jerk.
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90 Troll Shaman
9080
Support classes should always try and improve the group, over trying to do anything else first.

I have always enjoyed this class not because it benefited me but because it makes groups feel like a Team.

If your group asks you for something mundane - that will not guarantee a wipe, well then why not.

Give em' Stormlash, lust em' up, use some healing rain for your healer & caster crew, get that stun totem in there on group mobs and relieve some dmg.

There are other things to do as a spiritual guide to your group. You don't always have to DPS or Spam Heal. You can utilize and improve the experience of your group - that is what makes a great Shaman.

Selfishness and resistance to teamwork are not in the Shaman code.


All classes can support now. Most classes have whole tiers dedicated to the idea within their talent tree. I don't go around telling them when to push their buttons in the middle of combat.

I do use my own abilities as I best feel that they can help the group. For instance, I tend to throw AoE stuns, roots, slows, and damage on groups as we begin the pull. If I see that we're having trouble with healing, then I'll use Ancestral Guidance. If we're having a whole, whole lot of consistent trouble with healing on AoE pulls in a five man, then I use Conductivity. I interrupt. If the tank is about to fall due to aoe mob attacks or if a healer is being continually whacked, then I Thunderstorm. I Hex as needed. I look to dispel. Etc. I hit Chain Lightning a whole, whole lot. And when it's time to Lust, Stormlash, etc., I do that, too.

But I don't demand that Rogues stun mobs in a dungeon run. I don't demand that Warriors aoe slow or spell reflect. I don't say much because it's not that hard, and how they play isn't much of my business.

If I am worried about something, like CC, then I mention it before it happens -- usually not during. The only exception that I can even think of is if someone is standing in fire or something similar. That's an urgent situation, and even then, I often don't say anything in a five man run during the run.

Because, honestly, I'm too busy doing my job to worry about someone else's in a five man run. I'm trying to double people's dps while I stun, etc. And sometimes I do.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8340
Actually, as the hero strategy on that fight was refined, it was pretty much concluded that you hero at the start to get the most out of it with dps, but with healers hitting their button so they don't get the debuff and can benefit from it later in the fight when they needed it. Basically, DPS want it at the beginning when everythings up, healers want it when they need to heal more faster (which is rarely at the start of a fight), which should never be happening in a heroic 5man, so you should just pop it at the start.


I know, and I did it that way later on. I was just using as an example us moving lust later in the fight to solve the problem we were having, which was dying dps. Honestly, on the same pull, i took the red crystal which was what really made the difference. But having that haste after both healers had their crystals made our job very simple.

My point was that lust is a coordinated ability. No it doesn't matter in dungeons, but leader's naturally have the right to call for it. And yes, in a dungeon run, the tank is the natural leader. He might suck at it, but leader nonetheless.

If it's another thread about cruddy tanks, then that's been /covered.
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90 Troll Shaman
6980
Hmm... I'm not resto but if I were Resto I would listen to the tank on when he would want a Bloodlust, unless there is a reasonable fallacy in his reasoning. When someone calls Lust other DPS would be ready to pop CD's, if they have any available that is.

As for most of the time I'm Elemental, I pop Bloodlust on my own pace, which is to say when I have Trinket + Stormlash + Berserking and Elemental Blast buff up. Bite me, but I really like smashing Raigonn weak point solo before 1 charge, and kill the First boss off Niuzao in 18 seconds with slime stack buff. Best was 7 seconds on that boss with 3 slime packs buff. OMFG WTF BBQ! Yes yes, I only use Bloodlust for 7 seconds haha then again the next boss take a long time.
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