A consolidated and formal address to WW PvP

90 Human Monk
11905
Introduction

First off, I want to apologize for the long post, but I do want to get a message across in a constructive and formal way. A little about myself, I've got 2200 experience in both arenas and rated battlegrounds on various classes. I understand that there are people that are much more experienced than myself, but I also feel that I have the ability to construct a post based on certain elements that are needed to be able to be competitive in PvP.

This isn't supposed to be a flame post or a rage post, simply, how I feel the monk class is currently. Keep in mind that the season has not started and there are still many changes to be made underway, we just need to be patient. I'm also looking for any input from fellow players to add to this list, as long as it's constructive.

Speaking from experience first hand on live and beta; I definitely feel that there are a few abilities that can be fine tuned. I also have a few suggestions to go along with it which would hopefully help to fix this class.

Stuns

To start things off, our two main stuns (Not counting a symbiosis stun from a druid) are completely unacceptable. The fists of fury stun is near IMPOSSIBLE to hit someone that is running unless your latency is perfect and are a little bit ahead of them. If they're holding still, no problem at all, but honestly, who's going to be standing still in any PvP? The problem is slightly addressed in our 2-piece for pvp, but I don't feel that it was a proper solution to the fix. My suggestion for this is allow this ability to be able to use this ability while moving, but only have it stun initially. This way, even if my stun misses, I'm not 100% penalized.

The next stun that we have the option to pick is Leg Sweep, and unless you have a druid on your team, or have someone else that can stun, this is probably going to be your best choice. The problem that occurs here is very similar to the previous problem. Due to latency, server lag, or simply just unlucky, you are 100% penalized. There goes an entire 45 second cool down (which is very vital) down the drain. My suggestion for this is that it should be reworked to guarantee a stun on at least one target in range (to work similar to a kidney shot or a HoJ) and then if anyone else is in range, also stun them (but at a reduced duration so it isn't too imbalanced).

Mobility and Catching the target

The next problem that we encounter is when fighting ranged DPS. I understand that monks are very mobile, and when we obtain our PvP gloves, we'll be able to roll out of slows. The focus point is on actually GETTING to your target. You have two options to get to your target: Roll and Flying Serpent Kick. Both options provide excellent mobility, but don't guarantee you will be able to get to the target due to overshooting them or simply not being able to get near them due to latency yet again. The intentions of these abilities are very well thought out, but there needs to be a little something extra... Many melee classes currently have abilities that give them the abilities to get to your target, but more specifically... RIGHT ON THE TARGET.. Ie. Charge, Deathgrip (brings them right to you), Shadowstep, Wild Charge. I feel that for the cool down of flying serpent kick, it should at least serve as sort of a charge without a stun (if glyphed so people can still enjoy their fun).

Now, I feel that one of the best abilities to catch someone with is Spinning Fire Blossom. The problem with this ability, is that you actually have to aim it at the person that you want to catch, and there is a pretty good chance (if you are newer to the class) you will be missing ALOT. Another problem is that lets say your target is running away, any mob or other player can completely intercept the ability. This ability needs to be able to target someone (sort of like frost shocking a ranged target and rooting them as a shaman). If you glyph for the ability to target someone, you completely lose the root.

If feel if we are able to catch our targets, we would be able to put out much better damage. The constant damage and uptime is key to higher damage output.

Defensive and Survivability

Now, the tricky part. We have an insane amount of defensive cooldowns and control abilities. If we are given abilities such as the ones I've suggested, this could turn into Season 5 DKs all over again if things aren't properly tuned. At the moment, monks are able to escape enemies better than any other class I've seen, absorb complete damage from casters, have a minor shield wall (or DoT wipe + reduction if specced), a disarm, a port (that can be used on a Z-axis), an ability to channel ALL incoming damage to another target, an incapacitate, and stuns (when they work).

With all of these, you also have to understand that maybe a monks intention was supposed to be a control class rather than a damaging class? All speculation, but there still is absolutely no excuse to why we shouldn't be able to at least stand a fighting chance when it comes to trying to put out as much damage as possible.

I intend to stick it through and play a monk because I overall enjoy it, even though it can get frustrating.
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
9885
Honestly, leg sweep needs a wider range. I noticed that it misses a lot. FOF can't really be a completey reliable stun either because it is very situational. I get them both off a lot but they could use tweakage.

I disagree about spinning fire blossom though, I really enjoy aiming it at people.

I think tiger palm and black out need a dps buff.
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
11905
The aiming thing is alot of fun, don't get me wrong. Maybe it could be tweaked so that it has a bit of a homing ability. It has that now, but maybe increasing it a bit toward the target that I have targeted?
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
9885
It does suck when you are training a hunter and the blossom hits his pet instead of him. Kinda retarded. We definitely need some tweaks for sure.
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
11905
It might have been a little late to post this, hopefully we can get a bit more attention during the day. I'd like to be able to see in one thread, the thoughts on pvp specifically, rather than having to search the entire forums.
Reply Quote
So far, I'm enjoying the Monk class, I like the mobility and feel of the class. Although a main concern for me is the latency issues with FoF and FSK. I live in Australia and manage to maintain 150ms most of the time which is as good as we can get. Improvements you've mentioned seem as fair as they could be.
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
9885
I think we are going to have a really negative reputation and not get any rbg slots lol, even though as of now I am doing really well in bgs
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Monk
14435
People in beta kept telling Blizzard about these problems, but they didn't seem to listen due to fear of another s5 DK scenario.

And the poster above me, this is what I warned them about, stigmas in PvP are very hard to break unless they're glaringly obvious. Lets just hope that doesn't catch on.

At anyrate, I like how hard a monk is to play in comparison to a mage, lol.
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
11905
The challenge of playing a monk is actually part of the fun of playing it! But blizzard needs to take action BEFORE the season gets too far... Otherwise we will have a whole season 11 warrior problem... Despite the massive under-representation of warriors and rogues being out of control, nothing was done.
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
3230
for what I'm seeing, ww will be equal to shaman in pvp. Only the healer is for serious pvp ...
Reply Quote
90 Undead Warlock
6415
09/29/2012 02:55 AMPosted by Relucted
But blizzard needs to take action BEFORE the season gets too far... Otherwise we will have a whole season 11 warrior problem... Despite the massive under-representation of warriors and rogues being out of control, nothing was done.


Good luck with that.
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
11905
09/29/2012 05:17 AMPosted by Rasgasombra
for what I'm seeing, ww will be equal to shaman in pvp. Only the healer is for serious pvp ...
Which sadly isn't how it should be... I don't want to have to be stuck with only fitting into one comp because a ww monk just doesn't work with any other classes...

09/29/2012 05:20 AMPosted by Mehvil
But blizzard needs to take action BEFORE the season gets too far... Otherwise we will have a whole season 11 warrior problem... Despite the massive under-representation of warriors and rogues being out of control, nothing was done.


Good luck with that.


There's always hope right? Blizzard's done some pretty crazy nerfs/buffs at the beginning of a season (anyone remember ferals/warriors S9?)
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
6425
I am also primarily concerned with FoF and to a lesser extent with FSK. They do not work as well in PvP as they should. Especially FoF, it is EXTREMELY easy to miss due to latency. I have missed several times when the other player was right in front of me (and I dont not have a lot of lag). I was like "wtf is this crap".

I believe that FoF should have its cone range ajusted. It is clear that WoW combat architecture is not like TERA and it should not try to be.

I understand monks are supposed to be a visual class that might need more skill to play, but these abilites simply dont work correctly in PvP.

At least that is my opinion.
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Warrior
16480

Mobility and Catching the target

The next problem that we encounter is when fighting ranged DPS. I understand that monks are very mobile, and when we obtain our PvP gloves, we'll be able to roll out of slows. The focus point is on actually GETTING to your target. You have two options to get to your target: Roll and Flying Serpent Kick. Both options provide excellent mobility, but don't guarantee you will be able to get to the target due to overshooting them or simply not being able to get near them due to latency yet again. The intentions of these abilities are very well thought out, but there needs to be a little something extra... Many melee classes currently have abilities that give them the abilities to get to your target, but more specifically... RIGHT ON THE TARGET.. Ie. Charge, Deathgrip (brings them right to you), Shadowstep, Wild Charge. I feel that for the cool down of flying serpent kick, it should at least serve as sort of a charge without a stun (if glyphed so people can still enjoy their fun).


It took them 7 years to fix warrior & druid charges not ending in melee range of a moving target. And don't even get me started on the jumping charges thing >.<

Good luck getting this addressed. No sarcasm, I really hope they look into it. No class should have to put up with a "known issue" for as long as it took to fix charges

Now, I feel that one of the best abilities to catch someone with is Spinning Fire Blossom. The problem with this ability, is that you actually have to aim it at the person that you want to catch, and there is a pretty good chance (if you are newer to the class) you will be missing ALOT. Another problem is that lets say your target is running away, any mob or other player can completely intercept the ability. This ability needs to be able to target someone (sort of like frost shocking a ranged target and rooting them as a shaman). If you glyph for the ability to target someone, you completely lose the root.


Honestly just use the Heroic Leap mechanic and it fixes this concern. But again I doubt that will be seriously considered. Sadly, it looks like the extreme skillcap on monks is "working as intended"
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
7370
I love FoF, however the range is horrible. Sometimes i get a bit anxious and might press FoF and another button at the same time - thus cancelling the FoF - wasting valuable chi, and a CD that is quite long. I continuously Roll (or chi torpedo depending on your choice) right past the ranged classes. My FSK can be interrupted by charging warriors, and we have no CD to prevent damage if stunned (WW). i've spent alot of times in the last few seasons pvping on my rogue - which i admit has almost as many buttons as monk depending on situation, but they just seem so much more fluid and capable of not only dishing out the damage and catching foes, but mitigating damage and recovering from near death scenarios. Although we can roll and FSK away, 1 charge, blink, or shadowstep and we're back in the fray, having only been able to use 1 CD to try heal that little bit (20-30k at most).
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
11905
09/29/2012 08:23 PMPosted by Adsam
I love FoF, however the range is horrible. Sometimes i get a bit anxious and might press FoF and another button at the same time - thus cancelling the FoF - wasting valuable chi, and a CD that is quite long. I continuously Roll (or chi torpedo depending on your choice) right past the ranged classes. My FSK can be interrupted by charging warriors, and we have no CD to prevent damage if stunned (WW). i've spent alot of times in the last few seasons pvping on my rogue - which i admit has almost as many buttons as monk depending on situation, but they just seem so much more fluid and capable of not only dishing out the damage and catching foes, but mitigating damage and recovering from near death scenarios. Although we can roll and FSK away, 1 charge, blink, or shadowstep and we're back in the fray, having only been able to use 1 CD to try heal that little bit (20-30k at most).


Not being able to use a defensive while stunned isn't 100% necessary, unless we are having to rely on a small situation such as 1v1 or 2v2. But I seem to predict quite well when I'm going to be stunned and usually manage to have a damage CD popped before hand. It's sort of just about reading your opponent you know?

I've been using a nice way to heal.
Putting Transcendence up and putting 3 healing orbs right under it.
If I'm losing a lot of HP, I just use transfer and I'm healed instantly for about half my health with no crits.


This is actually a fantastic idea that I've been using also. It works really nice, unless you get interrupted during your port back and then you're up a creek XD But I feel that the cast time is definitely necessary, otherwise we'd be way out of hand.

Good luck getting this addressed. No sarcasm, I really hope they look into it. No class should have to put up with a "known issue" for as long as it took to fix charges


Thank you sir! I really hope things get looked into soon! I'm sure once the arena season starts, there will be a closer eye.

Especially FoF, it is EXTREMELY easy to miss due to latency. I have missed several times when the other player was right in front of me (and I dont not have a lot of lag). I was like "wtf is this crap".


I've had this happen to me on so many occasions, especially since my latency isn't always the best. I've also had MANY occasions where I might be able to get the stun off, but for some reason, ALL of my damage from FoF is out of range?
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Monk
6475
OP, how do you feel about the use of Tiger Palm ? It seems to feel like a waste, and takes time to build up.
Reply Quote
85 Human Hunter
2725
Off topic but how is Brewmaster for low leveling pvping while leveling?
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
11905
09/29/2012 11:55 PMPosted by Tigerlotus
OP, how do you feel about the use of Tiger Palm ? It seems to feel like a waste, and takes time to build up.


It really all seems situational. There are alot of times when I literally don't have time to stack it up... Perhaps the possibility of gaining the 30% armor through an alternate route instead? Maybe something like using chi? (or energy, but not having to use a damaging ability on a player? So you would be able to do it as you enter combat maybe?) There are alot of different options.

30% armor bypass can be a bit unbalanced if they tweak it the wrong way. That is something that I've been noticing, as you've stated, that it sometimes feels like a huge waste of time. Excellent point out!
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]