Arcane symbiosis and Level 90 Talents

90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Edit: I edited the title as this is not just about Arcane's symbiosis with the talents, but also the general dislike of the Level 90 Talents.

Before flaming me, hear me out. Both Fire and Frost has proccs or other things that make them symbiotic with certain talent choices. I'll even list them out:

Scorch (Tier 1)
Fire: Besides your choice of Mage Bomb or a Hot Streaked Pyroblast, Fire has no instant casts nor mobile choices. In addition to filling your mobile rotation, Scorch has a 1.5x multiplier on its crit chance, can procc Heating Up/Hot Streak, AND adds Ignite!

Frost: While Scorch isn't nearly as powerful for Frost as it is Fire, it's still a nice choice on mobile fights. It allows you to continue a rotation while moving when you have no BF or FoF proccs up, and you can't Pet Freeze or Frozen Orb, because Scorch itself proccs FoF proccs.

Arcane: Scorch has 0 additional benefits besides being a mobile spell. Arcane's Arcane Barrage is a 3s cooldown and is usually used during moments of moving (unless you know your charges won't expire). While Scorch does procc Arcane Missiles, every other spell that does damage does as well, so it provides no benefits over using, say, Arcane Explosion, other than being a spammable cast spell.

Tiers 2, 3, and 4 aren't symbiotic with one specc more than another as they are all situational/survival.

Mage Bomb (Tier 5)
Fire: While Fire doesn't directly benefit from Tier 5 over Arcane, it does benefit in a way in its rotation... If you glyph it, that is. Inferno Blast (aka Fire specced Fire Blast) when glyphed will make your Nether Tempest do a 50% damage AoE to ALL mobs around the IB'd target, spread Living Bomb to two additional targets (while still spreading Pyroblast (DoT), Ignite, and Combustion), and make Frost Bomb instantly explode. While both Frost and Arcane can do this, that requires the waste of a GCD while Fire uses IB in its actual rotation. Not to mention, Fire has little to no choices in Major Glyphs, making this a superb choice, especially when there are adds or AoE needed.

Frost: Any choice of Mage Bomb will greatly affect Frost as not only does it add sustained damage to one of the 'burstiest' speccs in the game, but it also proccs Brain Freeze, allowing for a free, instant, and 'considers-the-target-frozen' Frostfire Bolt.

Arcane: Other than the damage the bombs deal and the chance to procc AM (Like every other spell in the game), Mage Bombs have no additional benefits to Arcane.

Mage Power (Tier 6)
Fire and Frost: Both Fire and Frost have zero mana issues, because they aren't intended to. The only issue you'll ever run into with mana is when you use Invocation (it halves your mana regen), but you're intended to use Evocate in your rotation with it (to get the damage boost); in later tiers when we collect more gear (specifically higher levels of Haste), our MP5 will go up (since it scales with Haste), so even when we DO choose Invocation (especially as Frost, when paired with Frost Armor's 7% Haste), there won't be any issues anyways. All three choices simply beef up your damage.

Arcane: Here's where things get ugly. Arcane's Mastery, Mana Adept, makes the Mage do more damage the more mana they have. Looking at Tier 6, ALL THREE TALENT CHOICES AFFECT HOW YOU REGENERATE MANA. That alone should raise a red flag in your brains, and if it doesn't, here's why: No matter what you choose, as Arcane, you'll be restricted in one way or another.

- Invocation: Quite possibly the worst choice overall for the Mana dependent specc. It halves your MP5 (which immediately is a giant DPS loss), but allows you to use Evocation more frequently (also a giant DPS loss). The only time this would ever be a wise choice for Arcane is if a fight like Spine of Deathwing makes a comeback (and we all know how well that fight went...)

- Rune of Power: Probably the best choice, but still a poor talent overall for Arcane (like the other two). Not even going into the whole "forces you to stand still" and "needing to recast it" issues, it REPLACES evocation completely! Should you die or dip too low in your mana, there's nothing you can do to benefit much from your Mastery. Should you die as Fire or Frost, your MP5 will be too high to even matter from coming back with 20% mana.

- Incanter's Ward: The situational choice of the three, and personally my favorite, but still lacking in ways for Arcane. It has a passive effect of 65% mana regen and 6% damage, but if you use it, it will put a (fairly weak) shield on you that gives you mana as it absorbs damage and up to a 20% damage boost if it breaks (on top of the 10% damage it would give if you take 0 damage, making a maximum of 30% and a minimum of 10%). Also while on cooldown, you lose the passive effects.
This basically gives you a tough decision during the entirety of every fight (while watching mechanics, moving out of fire/stuff, and doing your rotation): To use, or not to use? Losing the 65% MP5 is definitely NOT worth the extra 4% damage you'd get if your shield takes no damage, so the shield is generally used best if there is something you can intentionally stand in, such as fire, to break the shield. A mechanic where we're EXPECTED to stand in bad fire? It just feels counter-intuitive.

All in all, Arcane not only gets no additional benefits from Scorch and the Mage Bomb, but ANY choice you choose in Tier 6 will simply restrict Arcane's playstyle while doing nothing but boosting Fire/Frost and giving them more choices (such as a nice heal from Invocation, in addition to the damage boosts of all 3 choices). While I don't have any suggestions, I'm simply trying to make people (and the developers, hopefully) aware of the problem Arcane has with the talents (most specifically, Tier 6).
Edited by Pewpewblast on 9/30/2012 3:34 PM PDT
Reply Quote
MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
09/29/2012 06:50 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
Arcane: Scorch has 0 additional benefits besides being a mobile spell. Arcane's Arcane Barrage is a 3s cooldown and is usually used during moments of moving (unless you know your charges won't expire). While Scorch does procc Arcane Missiles, every other spell that does damage does as well, so it provides no benefits over using, say, Arcane Explosion, other than being a spammable cast spell.


Being able to proc missiles while moving is very good. It means when you're done moving, you've got your hardest-hitting spell, which also happens to build charges and cost no mana, on tap and ready to fire. It helps Arcane recover very quickly from movement phases.

Mage Bomb (Tier 5)


Definitely has a greater effect on Fire and especially Frost than Arcane. However...

Mage Power (Tier 6)
Arcane: Here's where things get ugly. Arcane's Mastery, Mana Adept, makes the Mage do more damage the more mana they have. Looking at Tier 6, ALL THREE TALENT CHOICES AFFECT HOW YOU REGENERATE MANA.


...that is exactly the intent. Arcane gets the least interaction from T5, but the most from T6 -- T6 completely transforms Arcane's playstyle. (There was a dev post on this in beta, which laid all this out, though of course it's pretty clear from the design.)

If you prefer the old Arcane playstyle of alternating conserve and burn phases, Incanter's Ward gives you that.

If you prefer a constant burn playstyle, Invocation gives you that. Burn, evocate, repeat.

If you prefer spending most of your time in a conservation mode, only burning when necessary, Rune of Power gives you that.

All three work out to very similar average sustained DPS (assuming consistent bubble-breaking for Incanter's Ward, of course; it is less predictable than the other two options).
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
...that is exactly the intent. Arcane gets the least interaction from T5, but the most from T6 -- T6 completely transforms Arcane's playstyle. (There was a dev post on this in beta, which laid all this out, though of course it's pretty clear from the design.)

If you prefer the old Arcane playstyle of alternating conserve and burn phases, Incanter's Ward gives you that.

If you prefer a constant burn playstyle, Invocation gives you that. Burn, evocate, repeat.

If you prefer spending most of your time in a conservation mode, only burning when necessary, Rune of Power gives you that.

All three work out to very similar average sustained DPS (assuming consistent bubble-breaking for Incanter's Ward, of course; it is less predictable than the other two options).


I'm aware that the main intent is for Arcane, but all it does is purely restrict its playstyle. In Cata, you could do any of the three. Now you're restricted to only play as one (and for the ENTIRETY of a fight).

In addition, I think even you, Lhiv, can agree with the clunkiness of the T6 talents. It being the primary one for Arcane and being as clunky as it is kinda is a slap to the face. Forcing us to stand still (or recast RoP), use Evocation in our rotation, and running into fire for Incanter's Ward is just clunky and counter-intuitive (but that's going a bit off topic as that's mostly about T6 and not Arcane, but it still is mean to Arcane).
Edited by Pewpewblast on 9/29/2012 8:39 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Mage
10650
I remember yrs ago paladins had to click there buff every 5 mins and they all hated that then if move to like 15 min then a hr ....if they hateed every 5 min..how do you think we feel every 40 secs ?....its unbearable IMO
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
09/29/2012 08:48 PMPosted by Knucklebone
I remember yrs ago paladins had to click there buff every 5 mins and they all hated that then if move to like 15 min then a hr ....if they hateed every 5 min..how do you think we feel every 40 secs ?....its unbearable IMO


Agreed, though there are other issues than just Invocation here.

(PS: Also, their buffs weren't a 5+ second cast)
Reply Quote
MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
Incanter's Ward is essentially no change from your Cata playstyle. It doesn't restrict you. You still have Evocation with Incanter's Ward, it's still on a two-minute cooldown.

I really don't agree about "clunkiness".

I especially don't agree about this sudden concern about standing in fire to trigger a damage increase. Arcane Mages have been doing that since Wrath, with very little complaint.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
Reply Quote
MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
Agreed, though there are other issues than just Invocation here.

(PS: Also, their buffs weren't a 5+ second cast)


PPS they had to cast them on a raid of 40 people, and coordinate which paladin was handling which buff.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Incanter's Ward is essentially no change from your Cata playstyle. It doesn't restrict you. You still have Evocation with Incanter's Ward, it's still on a two-minute cooldown.

I really don't agree about "clunkiness".

I especially don't agree about this sudden concern about standing in fire to trigger a damage increase. Arcane Mages have been doing that since Wrath, with very little complaint.


Except then you have lower damage, and you're forced to step into fire to do more damage and get more mana.

Because that cost 2 talent points of "optional" points. If I want to do the old rotation, I have to take a crappy shield that I'm FORCED to break. You're also talking about a low spellpower boost to an up-to-20% damage buff, in addition to 18% mana. Comparing IA to IW is kinda silly.

Agreed, though there are other issues than just Invocation here.

(PS: Also, their buffs weren't a 5+ second cast)


PPS they had to cast them on a raid of 40 people, and coordinate which paladin was handling which buff.


Oh I know, but we're talking 7ish years ago where the difficulty of the game was crippling the players and not having good utility tools and raid stuff, and a 4th expansion that's all about convenience and QoL.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 9/29/2012 9:01 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Mage
10650
bottem line ..i loved playing my mage in cata and so far once i hit 90 i hate it ...
and im not the only 1 ...1000s of mages are posting they hate it to
im not happy i dont like it , say b talent with this and x-y chart show this graph works this way.... i dont care i dont like the change!
Reply Quote
MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
09/29/2012 09:00 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
You're also talking about a low spellpower boost to an up-to-20% damage buff, in addition to 18% mana. Comparing IA to IW is kinda silly.


Up to 30%. If you can actually break IW on cooldown every time, it's the strongest of the three talents.

But not as strong as IA used to be before they put the caps on it. For a while there, it could stack a truly enormous spell power bonus. People complained quite a bit when it got capped.

________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
You're also talking about a low spellpower boost to an up-to-20% damage buff, in addition to 18% mana. Comparing IA to IW is kinda silly.


Up to 30%. If you can actually break IW on cooldown every time, it's the strongest of the three talents.

But not as strong as IA used to be before they put the caps on it. For a while there, it could stack a truly enormous spell power bonus. People complained quite a bit when it got capped.


Erm, I meant up to 20% depending on how much damage you take. You get 10% no matter what, so you only get a 20% boost if you break IW.

Still, we're talking about QoL and with these talents, this is definitely not a QoL booster.

I'm sure you've done extensive testing on the beta, but get to 90 and try it again and tell me that you have ZERO problems with any of these three choices. I haven't seen such an amount of complaints in a LONG time. It's even worse than when they announced Pandaren being a playable race (I've seen both positive and negative from that. I've seen NOTHING but negativity about these Level 90 talents. The only positive thing I'll say is "at least they're better than our old beta choices")

Back to the topic of Arcane though (the original topic, actually, heh), it still feels counter-intuitive to intentionally break the shield. Also, it's not like IA was a choice between two other huge buffs.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 9/29/2012 9:18 PM PDT
Reply Quote
MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
09/29/2012 09:14 PMPosted by Pewpewblast


Up to 30%. If you can actually break IW on cooldown every time, it's the strongest of the three talents.

But not as strong as IA used to be before they put the caps on it. For a while there, it could stack a truly enormous spell power bonus. People complained quite a bit when it got capped.


Erm, I meant up to 20% depending on how much damage you take. You get 10% no matter what, so you only get a 20% boost if you break IW.


You get 6% passive. You get 30% when the buff is active (the 6% is disabled as soon as you cast the shield, and then you get up to 30% based on damage taken -- but the absorb is low enough that you should always get the full 30%).

I'm sure you've done extensive testing on the beta, but get to 90 and try it again and tell me that you have ZERO problems with any of these three choices.


Depends what you mean by "problem". Do they feel restrictive? Absolutely. But I think they should feel restrictive. We should, in fact, have to work to minimize movement time in order to maximize our damage. That's part of the whole class concept.

Back to the topic of Arcane though (the original topic, actually, heh), it still feels counter-intuitive to intentionally break the shield. Also, it's not like IA was a choice between two other huge buffs.


It doesn't feel that way to me. The talents obviously aren't identical, but it feels like a pretty natural evolution of the concept.

I think also that we may have something of a drain twisting/Haunt misunderstanding going on here. Affliction Warlocks complained a great deal in beta about the onerous task of having to use drain twisting and keep Haunt up full-time to maximize damage. Finally, GC came into the thread and said, "Why are you doing that?" They pointed out that executing it perfectly increased damage by about 1%. GC said, "Yeah, OK, if you want to put yourself through that for a hypothetical 1% extra damage if you execute it perfectly, feel free, but we're balancing around the assumption that you cast Haunt whenever you get a Nightfall proc."

Nightfall procs don't happen an awful lot. Haunt increases damage by 25% for 8 seconds. Players who assume that just because it's hypothetically possible to maintain high uptime on something, they're expected to do so, are very likely simply mistaken.

I don't think Blizzard intends for you to be seeking out Fire and breaking your shield as often as possible. I mean, think about it -- how often is that really going to be a win? If you have to spend five or six seconds running into a pool of badness every 25 seconds, how much of that 30% damage are you losing to the movement time?

I think they intend for you to use the shield when it makes sense to use a shield, and you're balanced around having the 6% damage up most of the time and the 30% damage up occasionally.

________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
Reply Quote
100 Troll Mage
17775
ITT lvl 86 MVP mage posts in support of lvl 90 talents he doesn't have.

For the record, I've only been level 90 for 3 days and can tell you that for me the new level 90 talents feel horrible. Maybe you played on beta and learned to love the new talents there. I frankly have no idea.

The following was posted on the forums over at mmo-champ and i feel like it describes the new talents pretty succinctly: "I feel like I either have to clip fires, CC myself or make movement super clunky in order to do decent damage. At the moment I just wish the level 90 tier was completely removed, maintenance buffs that take up so much time to keep going aren't fun at all for me"

I'm all for blizzard making the talent choices situational. Certain talents being good for certain fights is kinda nice IMO and certainly does provide variation while at the same time not allowing a class to become too overpowered with utility. That being said, my selection of lvl 90 talents isn't so much based on which will be good for a fight, but which will be least bad. This is disappointing to me, and from the threads I've seen on the forums, a lot of other longtime mages as well.
Edited by Wonderbunz on 9/30/2012 12:07 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
11370
You're not intended to clip fire every single time the cd is up though. That'd be ridiculous and stupid and it worries that people think you're supposed to. It'd be like thinkin that Rune of Power is balanced around the idea of 100% uptime in the rune. Its stupid.

Every spec ever in pve has always been balanced around good usage and has very very rarely been balanced around perfect usage. If you take IA, you're balanced around the main buff and occasional use of the shield. You are not balanced around the shield bein busted every time it comes off cd. If you do pull that off, you'll most definitely be doin more damage than the other two, even in their perfect situations.
Reply Quote
100 Troll Mage
17775
You're not intended to clip fire every single time the cd is up though. That'd be ridiculous and stupid and it worries that people think you're supposed to. It'd be like thinkin that Rune of Power is balanced around the idea of 100% uptime in the rune. Its stupid.

Every spec ever in pve has always been balanced around good usage and has very very rarely been balanced around perfect usage. If you take IA, you're balanced around the main buff and occasional use of the shield. You are not balanced around the shield bein busted every time it comes off cd. If you do pull that off, you'll most definitely be doin more damage than the other two, even in their perfect situations.


I'm not saying mages are weak. Mages have been one of the strongest dps classes throughout cata and look like they'll continue that trend in MoP. The talents HAVE been balanced to ensure mages are producing the expected (by blizzard) dps. but to me this isn't the point.

I'm saying that the talents aren't enjoyable to use. Yes, I care about putting up good numbers on boss fights but I also care about my class being an enjoyable one to play. the level 90 talents do not add any enjoyment to my play-style.

What if i told you blizzard was adding an ability that will allow you to do 25% more damage if you stand within 3 yards of your ghoul? Pretty cool, right? what if I told you this buff was coupled with the removal of the ability for your ghoul to move on his own? Yes, you still set him to attack your target as you did before. As soon as the mob he's attacking moves away or dies, however, he'll just stand there and wait for instructions. the only way to get him to move is by using the "move to" command from your ability bar. You know, the one you probably never use. Now assume some DKs adjust to this new mechanic and are putting out pretty good numbers. three weeks later blizzard takes that 25% buff and balances it down to 15%. Now dks are still able to pull pretty good numbers (hay its a buff) but are now responsible for manually moving their pets everytime they want to switch targets and stand next to them.

I think the above change would ridiculous and stupid. That being said, its pretty much exactly what playing with rune of power feels like to me at level 90.
Edited by Wonderbunz on 9/30/2012 1:07 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Lhiv,

I have a huge amount of respect for you. I really do. There are some very major issues with your logic, and quite frankly, ghostcrawler's logic.

While blizzard does not balance around perfect up time, and squeezing out another 1% up time, PLAYERS DO. RAID GROUPS DO. A 1% difference in the amount of damage players do is significant in a raid environment.

If we had to put up with this !@#$ at 85, nobody would remember doing average damage on ultraxion or Yor'sahj which is where we would be balanced at. EVERYONE would remember being sat for ragnaros because movement is too punitive.

In order to do good damage, we have to avoid movement. In order to survive raid encounters, lots of movement is required. We have a no win situation here.
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
11370
Lhiv,

I have a huge amount of respect for you. I really do. There are some very major issues with your logic, and quite frankly, ghostcrawler's logic.

While blizzard does not balance around perfect up time, and squeezing out another 1% up time, PLAYERS DO. RAID GROUPS DO. A 1% difference in the amount of damage players do is significant in a raid environment.

If we had to put up with this !@#$ at 85, nobody would remember doing average damage on ultraxion or Yor'sahj which is where we would be balanced at. EVERYONE would remember being sat for ragnaros because movement is too punitive.

In order to do good damage, we have to avoid movement. In order to survive raid encounters, lots of movement is required. We have a no win situation here.


Only the super hardcore give a toss about a 1% difference if its horribly unfun.

I'll say to you the same thing I say to everyone who whines and complains about very minor dps differences. If you're not in a race for either world first or server firsts then you need to stop worryin about very very minor dps differences. If you don't find somethin enjoyable, don't friggin do it because you don't need to do it.

Those mythical .1% wipes that people talk about where an extra 1% dps from a single raid member or those 1% wipes where everyone doin 1% better due to dps differences from stuff like this do not happen. They have never happened in the history of stuff like this happenin. The more likely scenario is someone didn't perform up to par due to a skill issue, or a reaction time issue, or a lag issue. Any number of things can contribute more to your damage than chasin dumb stuff like an extra 1% damage by doin somethin horribly unfun (and probably horribly inefficient) as burstin a IW on cd.
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
I think also that we may have something of a drain twisting/Haunt misunderstanding going on here. Affliction Warlocks complained a great deal in beta about the onerous task of having to use drain twisting and keep Haunt up full-time to maximize damage. Finally, GC came into the thread and said, "Why are you doing that?" They pointed out that executing it perfectly increased damage by about 1%. GC said, "Yeah, OK, if you want to put yourself through that for a hypothetical 1% extra damage if you execute it perfectly, feel free, but we're balancing around the assumption that you cast Haunt whenever you get a Nightfall proc."

Nightfall procs don't happen an awful lot. Haunt increases damage by 25% for 8 seconds. Players who assume that just because it's hypothetically possible to maintain high uptime on something, they're expected to do so, are very likely simply mistaken.

I don't think Blizzard intends for you to be seeking out Fire and breaking your shield as often as possible. I mean, think about it -- how often is that really going to be a win? If you have to spend five or six seconds running into a pool of badness every 25 seconds, how much of that 30% damage are you losing to the movement time?

I think they intend for you to use the shield when it makes sense to use a shield, and you're balanced around having the 6% damage up most of the time and the 30% damage up occasionally.


Okay and you're talking about a 1% difference, not a 15%, 25%, or (up to) 24% difference.

Also, this is the Mage forums. To avoid confusion with others, please don't use Warlock terms :P

So you're saying we're intended to only use the shield when we take damage and that 6% passive is supposed to be just as powerful as a 25%/15% passive? That makes plenty of sense... >_>;

09/30/2012 12:00 AMPosted by Wonderbunz
I'm all for blizzard making the talent choices situational. Certain talents being good for certain fights is kinda nice IMO and certainly does provide variation while at the same time not allowing a class to become too overpowered with utility. That being said, my selection of lvl 90 talents isn't so much based on which will be good for a fight, but which will be least bad. This is disappointing to me, and from the threads I've seen on the forums, a lot of other longtime mages as well.


Agreed.

09/30/2012 12:26 AMPosted by Añd
You're not intended to clip fire every single time the cd is up though. That'd be ridiculous and stupid and it worries that people think you're supposed to. It'd be like thinkin that Rune of Power is balanced around the idea of 100% uptime in the rune. Its stupid.


You mean you can't have it 100% uptime on Ultraxion? On Patchwerk? If you're not expected to do crystals - On Baleroc? That's just silly. There will always be situations where it will be 100% uptime.

09/30/2012 12:26 AMPosted by Añd
Every spec ever in pve has always been balanced around good usage and has very very rarely been balanced around perfect usage. If you take IA, you're balanced around the main buff and occasional use of the shield. You are not balanced around the shield bein busted every time it comes off cd. If you do pull that off, you'll most definitely be doin more damage than the other two, even in their perfect situations.


IA was a 2 talent point optional choice. DPS wasn't balanced around it like it now is these three talents. To compare IA to IW is a joke as it wasn't mandatory by any means.

09/30/2012 01:04 AMPosted by Wonderbunz
I'm saying that the talents aren't enjoyable to use. Yes, I care about putting up good numbers on boss fights but I also care about my class being an enjoyable one to play. the level 90 talents do not add any enjoyment to my play-style.


This is what it boils down to. The talents are meant to be fun and 'feel' overpowered. They "feel" overpowered, sure, but they aren't fun and are garbage for keeping up.

If we had to put up with this !@#$ at 85, nobody would remember doing average damage on ultraxion or Yor'sahj which is where we would be balanced at. EVERYONE would remember being sat for ragnaros because movement is too punitive.

In order to do good damage, we have to avoid movement. In order to survive raid encounters, lots of movement is required. We have a no win situation here.


All of this. Also, Lhiv, I definitely have high respect for you as well. Not because you're a grene but because you know your stuff, but the movement kills our level 90 talents and they aren't fun at all. If all fights require high movement, I near guarantee you we'll be sat a lot in this expansion. (Not even for the 1%, but just for the general theme of not being allowed to move for DPS)

Lhiv,

I have a huge amount of respect for you. I really do. There are some very major issues with your logic, and quite frankly, ghostcrawler's logic.

While blizzard does not balance around perfect up time, and squeezing out another 1% up time, PLAYERS DO. RAID GROUPS DO. A 1% difference in the amount of damage players do is significant in a raid environment.

If we had to put up with this !@#$ at 85, nobody would remember doing average damage on ultraxion or Yor'sahj which is where we would be balanced at. EVERYONE would remember being sat for ragnaros because movement is too punitive.

In order to do good damage, we have to avoid movement. In order to survive raid encounters, lots of movement is required. We have a no win situation here.


Only the super hardcore give a toss about a 1% difference if its horribly unfun.

I'll say to you the same thing I say to everyone who whines and complains about very minor dps differences. If you're not in a race for either world first or server firsts then you need to stop worryin about very very minor dps differences. If you don't find somethin enjoyable, don't friggin do it because you don't need to do it.

Those mythical .1% wipes that people talk about where an extra 1% dps from a single raid member or those 1% wipes where everyone doin 1% better due to dps differences from stuff like this do not happen. They have never happened in the history of stuff like this happenin. The more likely scenario is someone didn't perform up to par due to a skill issue, or a reaction time issue, or a lag issue. Any number of things can contribute more to your damage than chasin dumb stuff like an extra 1% damage by doin somethin horribly unfun (and probably horribly inefficient) as burstin a IW on cd.


You don't seem to understand how horribly boring and awful it is to keep these up, Death Knight...
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Also I'm just going to throw this out one more time: Never in the history of WoW have I ever seen such a negative aspect about the game. Even Cataclysm and Pandas got more likes than this.

I've yet to hear from a single Mage that "likes" the talents (strictly referring to the 6th tier atm, and not just for Arcane, which was my ORIGINAL topic). You say they're balanced, which isn't the point at all I'm trying to make. Look us all in the eye and tell me that you "like" these talents because they are designed well or actually are fun to use.

The only, and I mean ONLY aspects I like are using Invocation so I can kite/freeze rares and then get a nice 40% Heal when I need it, or using Rune of Power as a meditation circle (as it looks cool). Other than that, these talents are good on paper, but were executed HORRIBLY, and I wouldn't be surprised if Mages became the least played class this expansion if they don't change (as I doubt I'll be playing him much longer if they don't fix this... I should probably level my Warlock)
Reply Quote
MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
09/30/2012 03:29 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
So you're saying we're intended to only use the shield when we take damage and that 6% passive is supposed to be just as powerful as a 25%/15% passive? That makes plenty of sense... >_>;


No. What I'm saying is that I don't think Blizzard is balancing around anywhere near as high an expected uptime -- on any of these abilities -- as players think they are.

For example, say Blizzard is not expecting you to go searching for damage to soak every 25 seconds for Incanter's Ward. Say they're expecting you to use it about once every 75 seconds.

So what you get then is:

15 seconds @ 130% damage
10 seconds @ 100% damage
48.75 seconds @ 106% damage
1.25 seconds @ 0% damage (the time you spent casting the shield)

Average is: 15 / 75 * 130 + 10 / 75 * 100 + 48.75 / 75 * 106 ~= 108%.

Hey, what do you know -- that's pretty much a perfect match for 80% usage of Invocation.

The reason I used the Warlock Haunt analogy is because there's similar behavior going on there. You really don't want to be casting Drain Soul above its execute range; it's significantly lower DPS than Malefic Grasp. People calculated that if you sacrificed the Malefic Grasp damage to keep Haunt up full time, it was worth a miniscule theoretical DPS increase -- if you executed it perfectly. But in reality, most people wouldn't execute it perfectly; they'd miss the timing by a bit, they'd perhaps clip a dot, they might throw off their dot refreshes a bit, and they'd wind up losing more than they gained.

Similarly, if you're running around finding damage to soak up to increase the uptime on your shield, you're sacrificing stationary DPS time to do it. You're not going to see the full benefit of that 30% buff, because you're sacrificing higher-DPS casts to charge it up. You're seeing that 30% buff and wanting to keep it up, but you're not thinking about the cost of doing so, and whether the gains actually outweigh those costs.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]