Anyone else...

85 Tauren Shaman
6230
True, but you're still missing a point. It's not about magic, in my opinion, its about taboo magic.

Besides, who is to say the Grimtotem couldn't have used magic? Initial Tauren Lore mentioned mages and a, 'Fever,' or something, I believe, associated with magic. They certainly could have brought that to the table for the Horde in some capacity.

The Blood Elves would have brought demonic influence and corruption into the Alliance's spectrum. Its something the Horde has a lot of first hand experience with, but the Alliance doesn't.


1. Dark Irons DO use taboo magic, they're the Dwarf Warlock trainers and such remember?

2. I fully support some of the Tauren old concept stuff being brought in.

3. It just feels weird for me that the Blood Elves would get hurt by Garithos and then run back to the Alliance's open arms not so long afterwards.
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85 Human Mage
4460
09/30/2012 04:57 PMPosted by Skytotem
1. Dark Irons DO use taboo magic, they're the Dwarf Warlock trainers and such remember?


I know, but Demonic practice doesn't appear to be foremost to their culture and society. Honestly, it's not very defined beyond darker magics. Shadow magic, some demonic stuff, taboo shamanistic stuff, etc...

09/30/2012 04:57 PMPosted by Skytotem
2. I fully support some of the Tauren old concept stuff being brought in.


If its done right. It'd be interesting if some of the Tribes had class-related specializations. Bloodhoof might have been the Warriors, Runetotems the Druids, etc... Grimtotem the Mages.

09/30/2012 04:57 PMPosted by Skytotem
3. It just feels weird for me that the Blood Elves would get hurt by Garithos and then run back to the Alliance's open arms not so long afterwards.


Well, if you take it from the context of the end of the mission they fled to Outland, I'd agree, but after seeing where Illidan's leadership took the Blood Elves, how he himself fell despite the power he held, etc... If the Blood Elves reflected upon all of this, and then received a friendly ambassador from Stormwind, Ironforge, and Gnomeregan, it doesn't seem odd at all.

Personally, I'd rather have seen that happen and the issue of Garrithos answered once and for all, that to the remaining Alliance's knowledge he never held a position higher than Captain of a single Garrison of Lordaeron, and took up the title and rank of Grand Marshal without any knowledge of the rest of the Alliance, in the hopes of, after successfully reclaiming Lordaeron, being named its Regent.

Perhaps the actions of Garrithos would even be a catalyst to force the remainder of the Alliance to accept the Blood Elves renewed membership. They were mistreated by a man who misrepresented the Alliance. Old allies deserve better respect, and despite their darker path, the Alliance intends to make up for this with what aid it can.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
10600
09/30/2012 05:05 PMPosted by Elenie
I know, but Demonic practice doesn't appear to be foremost to their culture and society. Honestly, it's not very defined beyond darker magics. Shadow magic, some demonic stuff, taboo shamanistic stuff, etc...


Actually quite a few of the lore bits on archaeology artifacts for the Dwarves refer to various thanes and kings as warlocks in ages past.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
09/30/2012 05:05 PMPosted by Elenie
and then received a friendly ambassador from Stormwind, Ironforge, and Gnomeregan,


The thing is there's no reason for this to happen.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
9980
I vote in the proposed timeline the Belves never left the Illidari to begin with/ the Illidari never becoming the villains but being the whole fight fire with fire deal.
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85 Human Mage
4460
09/30/2012 05:08 PMPosted by Skytotem
and then received a friendly ambassador from Stormwind, Ironforge, and Gnomeregan,


The thing is there's no reason for this to happen.


Why not?

The Scourge threat is rampant on continental Lordaeron, the Alliance continues to exist in Khaz Modan and Azeroth (Continents), and if they are going to defeat the Scourge, they need a base to start from on Lordaeron (continent). The Blood Elves not only provide a launching ground for such a campaign, they also could use the help.

Why shouldn't Stormwind, Ironforge, and Gnomeregan, go looking for survivors of the Scourge to offer them aid and succor?
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
Why not?

The Scourge threat is rampant on continental Lordaeron, the Alliance continues to exist in Khaz Modan and Azeroth (Continents), and if they are going to defeat the Scourge, they need a base to start from on Lordaeron (continent). The Blood Elves not only provide a launching ground for such a campaign, they also could use the help.

Why shouldn't Stormwind, Ironforge, and Gnomeregan, go looking for survivors of the Scourge to offer them aid and succor?


Because the Blood Elves are using demon magics and were fickle allies even when High Elves, plus they lack the industrial capacity to really support a large offensive against the Scourge? (otherwise the Horde would've used it)
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85 Human Mage
4460
09/30/2012 05:26 PMPosted by Skytotem
Because the Blood Elves are using demon magics and were fickle allies even when High Elves, plus they lack the industrial capacity to really support a large offensive against the Scourge? (otherwise the Horde would've used it)


True, but they did take the initiative after the Scourge destroyed Lordaeron, Quel'thalas, and Dalaran, to try to offer aid. They made the first step. Kael'thas gathered the strongest of his Kin and set out to help the Alliance. New ruler, new times, and Kael had made a move to bring the Sin'dorei into the Alliance and help them even though it meant leaving Quel'thalas under-staffed in defense.

Besides, it'd help set the definition of the Horde and Alliance being separated by land masses. Unless they were meant to be an enemy as well, but if that were the case, the story may as well have dragged the entire race along Kael's path of damnation rather than just part of it.
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90 Human Warrior
5335
Why can't the elves just be on both sides? Do what they've done with the Pandarins, and have you choose. You go to Horde you become Blood Elf, you go to Alliance your a High Elf. Make Quel'thalas a epic scale battleground/pvp zone.

Seems to me that there are good reasons for the elves to be on both sides of the faction spectrum. Though with my idea you would have to spice up the opening and add some things new lore to make both sides a little more likeable choice for the elves
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
1. I dunno, that was before the whole Garithos thing and most of the elves motivated by anything resembling altruism stayed High elves.

2. Where do High elves fit into all this?

3. I think two races of elves on one faction is a bit superfluous.
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85 Human Mage
4460
09/30/2012 05:53 PMPosted by Skytotem
1. I dunno, that was before the whole Garithos thing and most of the elves motivated by anything resembling altruism stayed High elves.


True, but Illidan's defeat in Northrend could have made for a nice wake-up call.

09/30/2012 05:53 PMPosted by Skytotem
2. Where do High elves fit into all this?


No where. They're all Blood Elves, as should have been from the start. One of the key reasons you had High Elves in the current story is because they remained loyal to the Alliance in part to protest the path their brethren have walked. If the Blood Elves managed to turn back from that path to an extent, and remained in the Alliance, there isn't a purpose in there -being- High Elves.

09/30/2012 05:53 PMPosted by Skytotem
3. I think two races of elves on one faction is a bit superfluous.


Did you mean the Night Elves? They'd have been with the Horde, helping the Tauren re-establish their druidic roots, and aiding the Orc Shamans to acclimate to Azeroth's array of beast-spirits/entities (Goldrinn, Malorne, Avianna, etc...).
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90 Draenei Shaman
0
I really don't want additional timelines beyond those briefly shown by the Bronze Dragonflight.

I understand that it seems like some events can "never happen" due to the idea that players would be upset (read: Retake Lordaeron), but I don't think that is stopping Blizzard from doing it.

Blizzard is already showing us that they have no problem letting one faction invade the capital city of another (Battle for Undercity, and soon the attack on Orgrimmar). We'll even be killing a faction leader.

And who says some characters are off limits and cannot die? We've had piles of major characters fall over dead the last few years.

If Blizzard really felt like having a certain race switch sides would improve the story and/or game, I think they would do it. Sure, some players would be upset, but Blizzard could find a way to accomodate them through free faction changes, or simply writing them off as "the Tauren who chose to remain with the Horde".

I don't think there are any major events we're really missing out on.

As for loose ends, I believe I read the other day that they are working on a sort of Warcraft Encyclopedia. Hopefully some of those loose ends are taken care of. Regardless, while Blizzard is terrible about writing the whole story the first time, they are good at patching things up eventually. I don't have a problem with this - it makes for good debate / theorizing.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9145
Did you mean the Night Elves? They'd have been with the Horde, helping the Tauren re-establish their druidic roots, and aiding the Orc Shamans to acclimate to Azeroth's array of beast-spirits/entities (Goldrinn, Malorne, Avianna, etc...).


Yeah, The Night Elves wouldn't submit to a warchief.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
09/30/2012 06:28 PMPosted by Elenie
They'd have been with the Horde


This just doesn't sit right after the whole Cenarius thing.

09/30/2012 06:28 PMPosted by Elenie
If the Blood Elves managed to turn back from that path to an extent


I still feel this is weird and regressive, as if the events in WC3 didn't matter because they go back to High Elves 'but nicer', oh but they keep the fel magic to make them edgy that the high elves were protesting to bring the taboo to the Alliance?

Feels like a mishmash.
Edited by Skytotem on 9/30/2012 7:02 PM PDT
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09/30/2012 04:57 PMPosted by Skytotem
3. It just feels weird for me that the Blood Elves would get hurt by Garithos and then run back to the Alliance's open arms not so long afterwards.


No more weird than allying with undead, who overran and destroyed their city - Yeah, yeah, Forsaken and Scourge. Good luck conving the elves of that - and their ancient enemies, the Trolls - Again, good luck convinving them that the Amani and Gurubashi are real diferent.

09/30/2012 05:26 PMPosted by Skytotem
Because the Blood Elves are using demon magics


It's a small thing by that point. Certainly, it could've been overlooked.

09/30/2012 05:26 PMPosted by Skytotem
and were fickle allies even when High Elves


Historically, it's when Quel'thalas is actually threatened that the Elves prove themselves to be steadfast allies.

09/30/2012 05:26 PMPosted by Skytotem
plus they lack the industrial capacity to really support a large offensive against the Scourge? (otherwise the Horde would've used it)


Lol, what?!
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90 Tauren Death Knight
11170
Oh, what the hell, I'll bite.


"I am Thrall, Warchief of the Horde! My people have been liberated from the oppression of demonic control! We utterly hate demons in all their forms and their ilk. We will not tolerate demons among us, or those who wield their power!"


When did he say that he say this, specifically? No one has been under demonic control since the Horde reformed. Warlocks have been in control of their power, and Varimathras, until the Battle of the Undercity, was under Sylvanas' control. After that, Thrall declared martial law in the Undercity.

Honestly, I feel it makes more sense to allow Warlock magic under strict scrutiny than it is to outright ban them.
Edited by Abal on 9/30/2012 7:12 PM PDT
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
09/30/2012 07:03 PMPosted by Abal
No one has been under demonic control since the Horde reformed. Warlocks have been in control of their power, and Varimathras, until the Battle of the Undercity, was under Sylvanas' control. After that, Thrall declared martial law in the Undercity.


Putress and the whole "Sylvanas not able to keep her people from betraying the Horde" thing runs counter to this statement.

Even if Wrathgate was still stupid from a plot standpoint and strategy standpoint :P
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90 Tauren Death Knight
11170

Putress and the whole "Sylvanas not able to keep her people from betraying the Horde" thing runs counter to this statement.

Even if Wrathgate was still stupid from a plot standpoint and strategy standpoint :P


This pertains to that statement how, exactly? I said nothing about betrayal, and Putress wasn't under Varimathras' control; they were allied.
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85 Human Mage
4460
09/30/2012 06:42 PMPosted by Ferlion
Yeah, The Night Elves wouldn't submit to a warchief.


I never said they'd be -part- of the Horde, just with it. You can be an ally of the Horde without being a formal member. The Kaldorei Empire (Well, not really an Empire... Matriarchy? I dunno...) would have remained autonomous and self-governing.

09/30/2012 07:00 PMPosted by Skytotem
This just doesn't sit right after the whole Cenarius thing.


Except, apparently, after the Third War Cenarius had a complete change of heart and completely respects them, as per the recent batch of Ask CDev answers. Since Druids can enter the Emerald Dream and relay this knowledge, they likely could have relayed Cenarius' interests in seeing the Orcs become something more than their past, and asked some Druids to help them along that path. At that point, lines of communication have been opened.

I still feel this is weird and regressive, as if the events in WC3 didn't matter because they go back to High Elves 'but nicer', oh but they keep the fel magic to make them edgy that the high elves were protesting to bring the taboo to the Alliance?

Feels like a mishmash.


How to put it... Upon realizing the potential dangers and threats that demonic magic serves, they begin policing themselves diligently on this. Demon Hunters come into existence quite readily, and serve to curtail any possible danger of loss of control, or to handle demons who are too powerful for their Warlocks before they become a problem. In this, the Blood Elves acknowledge they have no choice; without the power of Fel, they cannot hold Quel'thalas and survive. They constantly tred a dagger's edge, damnation on either side.

When did he say that he this, specifically?


Never, I was paraphrasing based on a number of comments Thrall has made about demons during his tenure as an active, alive character in the universe. Most notably, Warcraft 3.

09/30/2012 07:03 PMPosted by Abal
Honestly, I feel it makes more sense to allow Warlock magic under strict scrutiny than it is to outright ban them.


But why? Warlocks aren't -necessary- to the Horde and the Orcs, who have a very pragmatic view and culture.
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85 Human Mage
4460
09/30/2012 07:03 PMPosted by Abal
No one has been under demonic control since the Horde reformed. Warlocks have been in control of their power, and Varimathras, until the Battle of the Undercity, was under Sylvanas' control. After that, Thrall declared martial law in the Undercity.


Erm... Ashenvale? Remember? In Cataclysm? How about Neeru Fireblade in Vanilla? Working for the Shadow Council? The Demon Seed being placed in The Barrens? A certain dropped note-quest in Vanilla for Ashenvale also made it clear the Burning Legion wants the Orcs back into the fold.
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