Tanking Damage Adjustment Hot Fixes

39 Worgen Warlock
0
10/05/2012 03:33 PMPosted by Feanorion
Every single player has a right to know how they are expected to play, and from in-game sources. This is a game: not a job. It is asinine to expect people to have to do homework and research in order to know the basics about how their class is supposed to work.


From a casual glance without any other sources, I would think to myself that I would use SoT for single target DPS, SoI for self healing and SoR for AoE DPS. The only reason I WOULDN'T is because in the past outside sources have told me that SoT was so far ahead in personal threat and DPS (and in a way HoPo gen thanks to the glyph) that that was not the case. If I'm not used to using outside sources, I'm probably seal swapping. Tanks thinking SoI was good for survivability were very commonplace. I remember having the arguments on a daily basis.

This has not changed. In fact, the lines that dictate "best tank seal" have been blurred even further to give the players - you guessed it - more options. When I say overstating, I mean the fact that you're referring to SoI as the tanking seal. All the blues have said is that SoI was used for "maximum survivability". Technically, this was always true, minus SoT glyph.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8960
10/05/2012 03:45 PMPosted by Feanorion
just the sneaky manner in which it was implemented.


It's not sneaky when you announce a change, not only in a blue post, but in it's own stickied thread in the tank forum.

10/05/2012 03:45 PMPosted by Feanorion
has a right to know what the proper and expected manner of play is.


You mean like the post saying they intend for Prot Paladins to use SoT for dps over survivability, and SoI for survivability over dps? Far as I recall, there has never been such a cut and dry statement about what seal Prot should use.

10/05/2012 03:45 PMPosted by Feanorion
Not knowing, not having availability to the knowledge in game, is a game design problem.


What is there not to know? One does aoe damage, one does lots of single target damage, and one heals and increases healing. Pretty damn straight forward.

10/05/2012 03:45 PMPosted by Feanorion
wanna-be e-bullies


Coming from the guy who threatened to kick my !@# if we ever met, who then stopped posting when I offered my phone number and address.

10/05/2012 03:33 PMPosted by Feanorion
Every single player has a right to know how they are expected to play, and from in-game sources


Let's just bring this up a second time. Where, anywhere, for any spec of any class, does the game tell you how to play? Outside of "Use this to reduce damage" beginner type tooltips, it doesn't.

(Inc "THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEANT BY HOW TO PLAY!!!")
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Unfortunately this has turned into a quote fest of you all bashing each other. Lets get back to the paladin nerf discussion ;)

-On a side note Feanorion I must say I like your transmog
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100 Tauren Paladin
10720
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/uxaez5in461ydb91/sum/damageDone/?s=5233&e=5651

Blood DK damage is fine. Amirite?
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100 Tauren Paladin
10720
10/03/2012 01:36 PMPosted by Rijdot
Nobody dares touch me during an AoE pull when I have 90k+ vengeance. I'm even MORE dangerous and heal even harder then.


10/03/2012 08:00 PMPosted by Rijdot
Heavily exaggerating numbers does not help your case in any way, shape or form.
Edited by Blizzhoof on 10/5/2012 10:14 PM PDT
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90 Troll Death Knight
0
Im sorry your pally is terrible? Looking at your logs, your pally barely used half of his available GCDs. Your Dk also had the boss targeting him more than 10x as long as the pally did. That will greatly skew vengeance levels between the 2 tanks. If he was going for max single target dps he is also using the wrong seal.

when you are almost entirely solo tanking a boss that is intended to be 2 tanked, of course the tank is going to do a lot of damage and of course the OT isnt going to do nearly as much damage.
Edited by Mortalitus on 10/5/2012 11:35 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Warrior
15690
10/05/2012 11:09 PMPosted by Feanorion
Going back to switching the brake and gas pedal analogy, a forum notice is akin to announcing the brake/gas pedal swap with a note in your attic.
Except the brake and gas pedal is still a terrible analogy. One involves pressing a different button and the other involves potentially causing thousands of dollars of damage and injury or death.

The brake and gas pedal analogy might possibly apply if, say, Blizzard switched SotR with Life Tap.

EDIT:
The heals seal has not been an often-used part of tanking--- ever. It had moments, but not regular use, by and large. The de facto seal has, for years, been SoT. Even the brief flirtation with SoComm was not long or often used.

What you're forgetting here is that for a lot of tanks, they did use SoI because they thought it was a survivability gain, so hey, excellent! Most tanks who knew that SoT was a better choice were probably the tanks who were going to find out about these hotfixes.
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
Edited by Waniou on 10/5/2012 11:13 PM PDT
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90 Orc Death Knight
8960
10/05/2012 11:09 PMPosted by Feanorion
Only a minute portion of the player base ever visits the forums.


So how could they ever make any change, since it would be so 'sneaky' since the vast majority of players don't even read patch notes.

Hell, you don't read most changes.

10/05/2012 11:09 PMPosted by Feanorion
A post that almost no one will read is ineffective communication.


But it still exists. Those who care about how they should play will find out, and those who don't have no need to.

10/05/2012 11:09 PMPosted by Feanorion
The heals seal has not been an often-used part of tanking--- ever


What does that matter? Things change, and if you would stop crying that they changed things, you would see this is a change for the better. Now there is an actual reason to use ANY seal, instead of Truth for everything.

10/05/2012 11:12 PMPosted by Waniou
Except the brake and gas pedal is still a terrible analogy.


This^
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21 Tauren Druid
0
My monk tank buddy is nearly topping on damage in some situations compared to me has a warrior. I personally think that Keg Smash is hitting way too hard. In most situations, i can't hold my aggro if he starts attacking my target. It was really depressing on Elegon DPS check.
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
10/06/2012 05:05 AMPosted by Feanorion
A good point in and of itself, but the problem is that the SoI users were functionally incorrect. Yes, SoI did increase survivability by a microscopic margin, but their threat/damage plummeted because we were balanced around using SoT. So the SoI users were "doing it wrong" when it was well established that SoT was the way to "do it right", and was what we were balanced around.


Let me break down this conversation.

You: They made a change. Noobs don't read changes. How will they know what is "right"?
Us: They don't care what is "right". They'll do what they THINK is right based off tooltips and info from other players.
You: But SoI is right now, and SoT was right before. How will they know SoI is right now?
Us: They won't. But it won't matter because they'll keep doing what they were doing anything and function fine.
You: But if they were using SoT before, how will they know SoI is right now
Us: ...Because if they knew SoT was right before, they probably already read patch notes and such. Otherwise they WOULDN'T have known SoT was right before.
You: But Blizzard isn't explicitly telling them X is wrong and Y is right.
Us: Yeah. And the kind of players who don't read patch notes usually don't even have the correct ROTATION generally let alone seal. This change is not going to affect them.

We're going around in circles. Bottom line: this change isn't going to really affect people who are doing it wrong, because they were probably doing it "wrong" beforehand somehow whether by choice of seal or rotation or gearing or whatever.

This conversation can also be broken down with the following quote and retort:

10/06/2012 05:05 AMPosted by Feanorion
So the SoI users were "doing it wrong" when it was well established that SoT was the way to "do it right", and was what we were balanced around.


Only if you used outside sources to determine SoT was superior, otherwise SoI's self healing still looked to most non-mathers like it would be optimal for survivability based on tooltips. If you WERE using outside sources, well, you know that SoT got the nerf bat.

Peppered with lots of insults and mud-slinging of course. And no, Fean, I can attest you don't read patch notes fully. Specific examples don't come to mind and they don't have to. I've had more than one /facepalm moment reading a Fean rant that brought to mind "Did he even read this?"
Edited by Rijdot on 10/6/2012 8:33 AM PDT
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90 Orc Death Knight
8960
10/06/2012 05:05 AMPosted by Feanorion
If you would stop lying and trying to make it seem as though I said something I didn't, you would see that I actually said that in one of my first responses in this thread; possibly my first post in this thread.


You're crying about this change. Whatever motivation you are aiming for, it's still crying.

10/06/2012 05:05 AMPosted by Feanorion
Another lie. I do not, did not, and never have, kept up with beta changes


I'm lying you don't read most changes, then you go on to say you don't read changes. Let's not all forget the maintankadin thread where Fean bashed them because they wouldn't write up a beta paladin guide for him so he wouldn't have to actually read any changes.

10/06/2012 05:05 AMPosted by Feanorion
All analogies break down under close examination.


Your analogy sucks, get over it.

10/06/2012 05:05 AMPosted by Feanorion
but the problem is that the SoI users were functionally incorrect


Which the very vast majority of players still don't know, and would only know if they found their way to the forums or some other theorycraft site.

10/06/2012 08:28 AMPosted by Rijdot
And no, Fean, I can attest you don't read patch notes fully


Any one else remember the thread about Divine Guardian being removed, which took 2-3 pages to get through to him that it was called Aura Mastery now?
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100 Draenei Warrior
15690
10/06/2012 05:05 AMPosted by Feanorion
All analogies break down under close examination. But your criticism fails at the root level. My analogy is to Blizzard changing one button desirability to another; you involved the scope of the consequences of the change. The consequences (damages, injuries, death) is irrelevant to the nature of my analogy.
Sure they are. If my brake and accelerator pedals on my car were to be switched tomorrow, I would notice straight away because I would plow into my garage wall. Most prot pallies probably didn't notice anything beyond "hey, is my damage a bit lower?"

A better analogy would be if the headlights and indicators were switched. It's the same basic idea but the scope isn't as terrible.
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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Okay blizz i'm a vanilla guy and I remember getting nerfed by you all the damn time. Things have gotten a lot better, but this is just ridiculous for the times. Finally warrior tanks dps gets brought up enough to feel like we are one of the big boys like palys and dks. Even though we still weren't near dks cause god knows the sky is gonna fall if you guys balance them with the rest of us. Then you go and do this. I can understand lowering a tanks single target dps to keep them from taking away from the dpsers job, but to take away the AOE from us as well when at least that makes us feel like we are helping and not just taking damage all the time. I'm pretty sure we all agree that trash mobs and multi mobs aren't really important and letting warrior tanks do decent dps to them isnt going to hurt anything except make us have more fun playing the role. Sorry we were up there with your precious dks and more viable since we could pump out decent dps as a warrior (even though its no where near as good as a dk), but this just shows you guys aren't out to balance classes, but instead play favorites. Dks need a nerf to be balanced with us and palys otherwise your just proving your playing favorites by spin doctoring the fact you nerfed us and let dks be op still as tanks.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
18315
so what is the deal with tanks out dpsing idk ever one
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