Tanking Damage Adjustment Hot Fixes

90 Human Paladin
8535
10/03/2012 07:37 AMPosted by Klaudandus
SoI being the default tanking seal WAS IN NO WAY OBVIOUS.


I'm not quite clear why this point keeps being brought up. This is using old ways of thinking to solve new problems. There is no longer a "default tanking seal", especially once they eliminated the SOT glyph. That should have been evidence to the obvious. Like the Blue said, if you want to do damage, use a damage seal; if you want to heal, use SOI. Thank goodness we have a choice now, right?

Frankly, the only time I see the nerf to SOT being an issue is if a raid is dying to enrage timers and you need to eke out some more DPS. As we have yet to even worry about that type of thing, let's put away the pitchforks and try and embrace new ways of thinking.
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1 Draenei Paladin
0
10/03/2012 08:13 AMPosted by Klaudandus
apparently its not the seal we're supposed to be using for tanking. *rolls eyes*


This is really the crux of the issue for me. SoI was always there, and it got niche usage in certain situations. But now it's supposed to be our tanking seal? Really? Where the hell did this idea come from?

And was it really necessary to nerf an ability by EIGHTY PERCENT?
Edited by Mnemonic on 10/3/2012 8:36 AM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
3050
10/03/2012 08:29 AMPosted by Valpin
SoI being the default tanking seal WAS IN NO WAY OBVIOUS.


I'm not quite clear why this point keeps being brought up. This is using old ways of thinking to solve new problems. There is no longer a "default tanking seal", especially once they eliminated the SOT glyph. That should have been evidence to the obvious. Like the Blue said, if you want to do damage, use a damage seal; if you want to heal, use SOI. Thank goodness we have a choice now, right?

Frankly, the only time I see the nerf to SOT being an issue is if a raid is dying to enrage timers and you need to eke out some more DPS. As we have yet to even worry about that type of thing, let's put away the pitchforks and try and embrace new ways of thinking.

How does haste, help you cast instant word of glory as prot?
SoI was(is)not your tanking seal.
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90 Human Paladin
8535
How does haste, help you cast instant word of glory as prot?SoI was(is)not your tanking seal.


You are correct, haste obviously does not help cast instant spells. But you neglected the other two-thirds of SOI's ability: the 5% buff to WoG and the self heal on melee attack (which scales with Vengeance).
Edited by Valpin on 10/3/2012 8:56 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
12425
SoI being the default tanking seal WAS IN NO WAY OBVIOUS.


I'm not quite clear why this point keeps being brought up. This is using old ways of thinking to solve new problems. There is no longer a "default tanking seal", especially once they eliminated the SOT glyph. That should have been evidence to the obvious. Like the Blue said, if you want to do damage, use a damage seal; if you want to heal, use SOI. Thank goodness we have a choice now, right?

Frankly, the only time I see the nerf to SOT being an issue is if a raid is dying to enrage timers and you need to eke out some more DPS. As we have yet to even worry about that type of thing, let's put away the pitchforks and try and embrace new ways of thinking.


All the theorycraft, all the simulations were done with SoT in mind as the default seal, and it showed we were merely adequate. We are not the best when it comes to AoE vis a vis other tanks.

HotR is so weak, I'd do more damage by sneezing on the screen. Warrior's TC has the added benefit of spreading Deep Wounds to all targets rolled into their Weakened Blows debuff -- and we just lost our bleed analogue because we're being pushed to SoI, which means we're losing about 24% of our total damage from Censure/SoT -- which is what helped stick all the mobs to us, and that was barely.

Also, in spite of HW's buff, its effectiveness/priority in the rotation is conversely proportional to the number of mobs you're facing, thus negating its value -- again, this is where our censure was making up for it in our AOE Department.

Ok, our survivability went up, but we're taking a step back in our AoE, and the step back is huge.
Edited by Klaudandus on 10/3/2012 9:17 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6500
thanks blizz for addressing the paladin tank damage issue. <3 I would never want to kill anything single target while leveling because my damage was so bad. Thanks hopefully this helps :D
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90 Human Warrior
3050
10/03/2012 08:47 AMPosted by Valpin
How does haste, help you cast instant word of glory as prot?SoI was(is)not your tanking seal.


You are correct, haste obviously does not help cast instant spells. But you neglected the other two-thirds of SOI's ability: the 5% buff to WoG and the self heal on melee attack (which scales with Vengeance).

I guess.
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90 Human Paladin
8535
All the theorycraft, all the simulations were done with SoT in mind as the default seal, and it showed we were merely adequate. We are not the best when it comes to AoE vis a vis other tanks. HotR is so weak, I'd do more damage by sneezing on the screen. Warrior's TC has the added benefit of spreading Deep Wounds to all targets rolled into their Weakened Blows debuff -- and we just lost our bleed analogue because we're being pushed to SoI, which means we're losing about 24% of our total damage from Censure/SoT -- which is what helped stick all the mobs to us, and that was barely. Also, in spite of HW's buff, its effectiveness/priority in the rotation is conversely proportional to the number of mobs you're facing, thus negating its value -- again, this is where our censure was making up for it in our AOE Department. Ok, our survivability went up, but we're taking a step back in our AoE, and the step back is huge.


Hmm, I am a little confused. You are coming at this from simply a damage perspective, right? I.e. our DPS? Is that what you mean when you say, "We are not the best when it comes to AoE vis a vis other tanks"?
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
12425
10/03/2012 09:34 AMPosted by Valpin
All the theorycraft, all the simulations were done with SoT in mind as the default seal, and it showed we were merely adequate. We are not the best when it comes to AoE vis a vis other tanks. HotR is so weak, I'd do more damage by sneezing on the screen. Warrior's TC has the added benefit of spreading Deep Wounds to all targets rolled into their Weakened Blows debuff -- and we just lost our bleed analogue because we're being pushed to SoI, which means we're losing about 24% of our total damage from Censure/SoT -- which is what helped stick all the mobs to us, and that was barely. Also, in spite of HW's buff, its effectiveness/priority in the rotation is conversely proportional to the number of mobs you're facing, thus negating its value -- again, this is where our censure was making up for it in our AOE Department. Ok, our survivability went up, but we're taking a step back in our AoE, and the step back is huge.


Hmm, I am a little confused. You are coming at this from simply a damage perspective, right? I.e. our DPS? Is that what you mean when you say, "We are not the best when it comes to AoE vis a vis other tanks"?


Yes and no. We need the damage to control the flow of the fight. What good is it that I can survive easier with SoI if I can't stop a mob from deciding it doesnt wanna fight me and fight the dps or the healer instead.

I said it before, I had easier time controlling the mobs with my warrior than with my paladin, even though my warrior was geared poorly compared to my paladin.
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
It blows me away when people complain about threat issues.

My guild's lock likes to DPS with Dark Apotheosis up in 5 mans for kicks and giggles and I generally have no issues holding against him as long as I get to the pack first - and this is with the tank class with overall weakest AoE (except perhaps bears, I've done no research on them).

Have I mentioned my paladin is level 89 and still sporting Souldrinker and he's 90 and halfway heroic geared?

Have I mentioned this was BEFORE the Holy Wrath hotfix?

Seriously, how are people having threat issues?
Edited by Rijdot on 10/3/2012 9:43 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
8535
Yes and no. We need the damage to control the flow of the fight. What good is it that I can survive easier with SoI if I can't stop a mob from deciding it doesnt wanna fight me and fight the dps or the healer instead. I said it before, I had easier time controlling the mobs with my warrior than with my paladin, even though my warrior was geared poorly compared to my paladin.


Ah, I see. So damage is the first order issue and threat is the second order issue, but the one that concerns you the most. A couple observations from my experience:

1. SoT is not a good AOE threat tool to begin with, unless you were tab-targetting (which is viable, granted). If AOE threat is an issue, switching to SoR is better. As Theck taught me, SoT for single target, SoR for AOE.

2. I have been using SoI during my heroic runs and I have yet to have a threat issue. Mobs seems to stick on me like glue. HotR does hit like a wet noodle, I'll give you that. AS and Consecration hit like a truck, though. That should be more than enough to hold threat on multiple mobs. Combined with LH and HW (excellent for stunning all kinds of mobs, which makes up for its somewhat weak damage component) and our wet noodle, we have more than enough tools to keep mobs attacking us.

What rotation are you using for AOE?
Edited by Valpin on 10/3/2012 10:02 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
12425
For AoE, AS on pull, CS(HotR to apply debuff)>J>AS+>Cons>AS>LH>HW>SotR>HoW

I guess my problem is that i tend to run into mindless dps that target whatever they want, but controlling such situations before seemed easier on my warrior than it is on my paladin -- which is the crux of my argument.
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100 Night Elf Warrior
20195
So they put in glyph of revenge to bandaid fix a broken spec. Then nerf the ability itself to compensate for the bandaid glyph. Thus screwing up projected scaling going into future tiers.

This ping pong bait and switch crap is getting a bit annoying.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9565
thanks blizz for addressing the paladin tank damage issue. <3 I would never want to kill anything single target while leveling because my damage was so bad. Thanks hopefully this helps :D


Seconded. Thank you guys so much. <3
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90 Tauren Paladin
16490
Let's get real here....those paladin changes won't close the gaps between DK dmg and paladin dmg, if you think it will please give me some of whatever your smoking.
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90 Draenei Paladin
9685
I feel like tanks already do too much damage. They are a TANK suppose to TAKE damage not DEAL IT. It's really sad when they out dps DPS.
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94 Human Mage
11290
Why is it that every single buff or nerf you guys make is by at least 50%? Such drastic changes seem a little over the top, and this is the way you have been doing it for a long time.

In my opinion fine tuning would be a little more fine if you did said tuning in increments that didn't drastically change play styles for the classes afflicted, and instead just tuned the abilities. For example, paladins in this forum are asking themselves, "Is it even worth considering seal of truth now?"

In this example you have not achieved any sort of balance, all you have done is nerf seal of truth into irrelevance for all protection paladins.

Now, that is just my opinion of course and can be interpreted any number of ways, however I feel that such changes don't really do anything to help the game because it eliminates any sort of thought process in the decision process.

This applies to all classes and changes, I just have never understood why it is that all the changes must be drastic, spec changing, rotation changing, changes.

TLDR

50% or more changes to abilities every patch is a little much don't you think?
Maybe we could try 10-15% until it feels right? Instead of instantly making skills irrelevant?

Maybe I am wrong, who knows?
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100 Orc Warrior
13640
Warriors
Warriors have several mechanics that improve their tanking performance when dealing with multiple foes, as well as their damage output against them. Their damage against packs of creatures, especially when three targets were present, was much higher than other tanking classes. While some variance is expected, it was clear that an adjustment was necessary.
The primary culprits here were Revenge and Deep Wounds:
  • Revenge now deals 50% damage to a secondary target, and 25% damage to a third target.
  • Deep Wounds now does 50% less damage for Protection Warriors only.



Death Knights
While Blood Death Knights have been higher on damage than most other tanks, we’re expecting that the adjustments we’re making to the other tanking classes will close the gap. While we haven’t made any changes to Blood lately, we will be keeping a close eye on it.


Uh, what? Don't change Deep Wounds. Not only is our aoe going to be quite !@#$ty, but our single target, my god.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8930
I am so glad that I managed to grind my way up to 90 before these changes went up. Leveling in Prot Spec was brutal enough as it is; now you're telling me that pitiful damage and 2 minutes to kill one enemy is working as intended?

And you wonder why there's a tank shortage and healer shortage at max level; you condition people to think that they're playing World of DPS craft for the longest 5 levels I've ever encountered.


Pretty much this.

You guys do know we have to do dailies as well? How long is our dailies supposed to take us?


You have a problem doing dailies? Pull large packs and hav fun! ESPECIALLY min the wastes.....

as a tank http://www.wowhead.com/spell=124529/iron-mantid is all kinds of delicious for farming of any kind. Angel of Death is terrible.

Oh, and build a starter dps set. Contender's gear only takes ghost iron which is about as common as grass is in suburbia. 464 epic dps pvp gear only takes honor.
Edited by Kvash on 10/3/2012 10:42 AM PDT
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90 Orc Death Knight
8930
It blows me away when people complain about threat issues.

My guild's lock likes to DPS with Dark Apotheosis up in 5 mans for kicks and giggles and I generally have no issues holding against him as long as I get to the pack first - and this is with the tank class with overall weakest AoE (except perhaps bears, I've done no research on them).

Have I mentioned my paladin is level 89 and still sporting Souldrinker and he's 90 and halfway heroic geared?

Have I mentioned this was BEFORE the Holy Wrath hotfix?

Seriously, how are people having threat issues?


They sit there behaving like they are aggro statues fixated to one creature within a pack and that every button they manage to smash their face into that has any sort of AOE element to it is supposed to glue a mob to them. All the tanks I've experienced so far only have minor AOE threat issues and have a myriad of ways to fix the issue... if they'd bother to develop more situational awareness and understanding of the mechanics.

And admittedly there are dps out there who are used to randomly targetting one creature within a tanked pack and just blow it away without paying attention to which of the pack are getting damaged more by the tank than the others and often will pull aggro and CONTINUE to wail on the creature. But even then one taunt, and a solid hit of any kind cements it back onto me.
Edited by Kvash on 10/3/2012 10:40 AM PDT
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