Tanking Damage Adjustment Hot Fixes

I just gave a test run on a few 90 tigers to check out how much hurt that 80% nerf put on it... and of the few hammer swinging encounters, SoL and SoR stayed right about the 3k mark (no procs, just hammer swinging) and SoT kept around 2.6-2.7.

Another few runs, this time adding judge... SoL and SoR again stayed about even at 4.7k, and SoT trailed behind AGAIN at 4.5k.

So, basically SoT is useless, SoR taking lead in AoE aggro/dps potential, and SoL now being the go to for single target tanking... being as it now does better dps than SoT AND offers consistent heals....

The hell blizz... Do you guys test these things or just have somebody come around with a post-it note and say "Make this live... for fun..."
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
10/03/2012 04:02 PMPosted by Topple
So groups that ran timed challenges before tank dps nerfs will have a distinct advantage over people running them now? Cool.


Considering there is nearly no one that has completed a gold challenge mode yet, this kind of statement is pointless whining.

10/03/2012 04:10 PMPosted by Kyubi
So, basically SoT is useless, SoR taking lead in AoE aggro/dps potential, and SoL now being the go to for single target tanking... being as it now does better dps than SoT AND offers consistent heals....


I'll assume you're meaning Seal of Insight, which is hilarious because it deals no additional damage, so what are you crying about again?
Edited by Rijdot on 10/3/2012 4:13 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16825
Pretty much this.

You guys do know we have to do dailies as well? How long is our dailies supposed to take us?


Have a DPS spec as your dual spec? I mean that's pretty much what all healers end up doing, save for many raider priests who have both specs occupied by Holy/Disc.


The solution to, "Tanks don't do enough damage in solo play" is "Don't play a tank spec solo?"

That is the most ridiculous logic I have ever heard. I seem to recall that for Cataclysm, emphasis was made so that Healers could actually play through questing content. Why should playing solo as a healer or a tank be virtually impossible compared to doing it as a DPS?
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100 Tauren Death Knight
10345
How do you rebalance tank DPS and have Blood DKs come out unscathed. Like, what are you guys observing exactly?


Well, at least from how a few normals have went so far, and from a few predictions as to how raids will go, our DPS does not seem to need much of a change.

I think the reason you might see Blood DKs doing massive DPS is our ability to trade off practically 80% of our survivability in order to spam damage with Blood Boil, which is WAY better than Heart Strike with 2-3+ mobs now if we have diseases spread. We can Death Strike twice (1 frost, 1 unholy each) and heal 14% and get a 14% (or so) of our health Blood Shield, wait for the runes to come back, and do it again, OR, we can hit Blood Boil four times with those 4 death runes, sacrificing a lot of survivability.

I found that when I ran dungeons with my brother, a resto druid, in Cataclysm, if I started off by popping Bone Shield and got a decent Blood Shield up, and gamed well with Rune Strike and Vampiric Blood, I'd have no issues with taking too much damage if I Blood Boiled every other refresh of my frosts/unholies. That was purely because of his knowledge of how to heal me efficiently.

In LFR, though, it didn't matter nearly as much how well he could heal me because he was only 33% (or 17% depending on boss mechanics) of the healing force. I had to put my effort into keeping my survivability as high as possible because I couldn't count on two other healers being able to predict and make up for if/when I didn't Death Strike.

TL;DR, I'm not 90 yet and don't know how MoP raids work, but if bosses today bear ANY resemblance to Cata bosses, you'll probably see most other tanks out-DPSing Blood DKs without having to sacrifice survivability, especially with the big debuff to our Heart Strike.

EDIT: PLUS with the change to our GCD (down from 1.5 to 1.0 sec), we're all going to have to adjust to how to land Death Strikes at the right time, making survivability take much more focus... Could be easier, could be harder. We'll see how that works out.
Edited by Cruor on 10/3/2012 4:46 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
8535
10/03/2012 04:10 PMPosted by Kyubi
So, basically SoT is useless, SoR taking lead in AoE aggro/dps potential, and SoL now being the go to for single target tanking... being as it now does better dps than SoT AND offers consistent heals....


There's no way SoI does better damage than SoT. Like Rij mentioned above, it doesn't contribute anything but the heal and increased healing.

Look at the seals this way:

If you want to damage single targets or packs of mobs less than 7, use SoT.*
If you want to damage packs of 7+ mobs, use SoR.*
If you want to further participate in active mitigation, use SoI.

*7 mob breakpoint found somewhere in Theck's MATLAB thread... I'll find it if you really want the source.
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Right... I get the SoI doesn't add damage, but looking at recount after a few fights using just melee swings and judge, SoT did less damage consistently than SoI. IDK how it was happening... but it was. I ran it a couple more times to check consistency, and i got the same results. DPS output on a single mob using SoR and SoI was balanced, and SoT trailed behind the two. I had higher spikes from SoR, but after about 45 seconds of pure melee swing and judge rotations, it plateaued.

For the life of me i can't see any reason SoT would've had less output than SoI, but it did by 200-400 dps every time. But that still brings the SoR>SoT into light being SoT has always been the goto for single target (multiple if you can juggle the refresh hit) but as stated again, my tests put SoR above SoT in single target anyway.

Unless you can think of a reason SoI having no dmg increase would keep on par with SoR and BEAT SoT... i'm at a loss.

That being said... I've begun using SoI more, and am loving it. Solo, with personal SS procs and colossus, i'm never dropping under the 95% marker. Although... i am some what perplexed with my numbers from the seals tests... Thoughts?
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100 Draenei Warrior
16800
How long are you testing for?
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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87 Human Warrior
11175
So... Death Knights do a lot of damage, and to balance them, you waeken the other Tanks.

What in all the heavens are you guys thinking?
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90 Orc Death Knight
8960
Right... I get the SoI doesn't add damage, but looking at recount after a few fights using just melee swings and judge, SoT did less damage consistently than SoI. IDK how it was happening... but it was. I ran it a couple more times to check consistency, and i got the same results. DPS output on a single mob using SoR and SoI was balanced, and SoT trailed behind the two. I had higher spikes from SoR, but after about 45 seconds of pure melee swing and judge rotations, it plateaued.

For the life of me i can't see any reason SoT would've had less output than SoI, but it did by 200-400 dps every time. But that still brings the SoR>SoT into light being SoT has always been the goto for single target (multiple if you can juggle the refresh hit) but as stated again, my tests put SoR above SoT in single target anyway.

Unless you can think of a reason SoI having no dmg increase would keep on par with SoR and BEAT SoT... i'm at a loss.

That being said... I've begun using SoI more, and am loving it. Solo, with personal SS procs and colossus, i'm never dropping under the 95% marker. Although... i am some what perplexed with my numbers from the seals tests... Thoughts?


45 second zero vengeance tests are meaningless.
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90 Human Paladin
9735
Meh, there goes solo prot...

*rolls eyes*

"Tanks are doing too much damage in groups so instead of tweaking vengeance, we're going to nerf base abilities that also hurt solo play too!"

Nice, Blizz.

Just nice.

Couldn't you have done that BEFORE I quested my 414 weapon from Kun-Lai Summit on my Warrior?
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
Holy christ on a stick it's really not that bad.

If you were killing mobs 1v1 as prot you were doing it wrong anyway.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8960
Meh, there goes solo prot...

*rolls eyes*

"Tanks are doing too much damage in groups so instead of tweaking vengeance, we're going to nerf base abilities that also hurt solo play too!"

Nice, Blizz.

Just nice.

Couldn't you have done that BEFORE I quested my 414 weapon from Kun-Lai Summit on my Warrior?


Gosh, if only they had buffed other abilities to compensate for Censure.

Oh. Wait. They did
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90 Human Paladin
9735
Meh, there goes solo prot...

*rolls eyes*

"Tanks are doing too much damage in groups so instead of tweaking vengeance, we're going to nerf base abilities that also hurt solo play too!"

Nice, Blizz.

Just nice.

Couldn't you have done that BEFORE I quested my 414 weapon from Kun-Lai Summit on my Warrior?


Gosh, if only they had buffed other abilities to compensate for Censure.

Oh. Wait. They did


They buffed two abilities that only do nice damage when used on 3+ targets.

On a crowded server, you're lucky you can find 3 mobs to fight at once, except for those stupid clumps of chattering virmen in Vot4W.

What if you're doing Single-Target or only two targets? These nerfs will hurt. What if you're fighting a named quest mob with 2million+ health and just that mob? It is going to take forever to kill it and it won't matter if your Holy Wrath does 5,000 damage or 10,000 damage. Heck, even 15,000 damage. Yes, you could TRIPLE Holy Wrath's damage and it won't do jack for single-target damage.

And what about Prot Warriors?

They handed out nerfs and didn't buff anything. Bleeding Wounds doing less damage? Less Single-Target Damage. The huge nerfs to Revenge? It already took forever to kill mobs in solo play without very much Vengeance.
Edited by Hirai on 10/3/2012 7:47 PM PDT
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
If you're fighting anything of consequence that is threatening, your damage will ramp up to compensate.

I can not believe people are honestly whining about this. Seriously?

Makes me very, very sad for the state of the playerbase.
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90 Human Paladin
9735
If you're fighting anything of consequence that is threatening, your damage will ramp up to compensate.

I can not believe people are honestly whining about this. Seriously?

Makes me very, very sad for the state of the playerbase.


So basically, if it doesn't do enough damage to threaten you, it should take 3 hours to kill it?

I liked 4.3 better; Prot actually did decent enough DPS that you could solo quest with it and not feel like a wimp doing so.

I realize that IN GROUPS, they needed balanced, but surely there was some other way that didn't kill solo play.
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85 Human Warrior
11430
They buffed two abilities that only do nice damage when used on 3+ targets.

On a crowded server, you're lucky you can find 3 mobs to fight at once, except for those stupid clumps of chattering virmen in Vot4W.


After playing with them a bit tonight the paladin changes "feel" like a net buff for soloing to me. Part of the reason it takes so damn long to kill everything is because so much of that damage is DoT-based and takes time to ramp up. Frontloading things more with Avenger's Shield (if you're not doing 3+ targets regularly, glyph it) and Holy Wrath helps the non-named ones die more quickly.

Yes, you could TRIPLE Holy Wrath's damage and it won't do jack for single-target damage.


You understand that Holy Wrath divides its damage by the number of targets, right? So it does exactly* the same amount of damage to 1 target as to 10?

* note: not sure if it's kept those old mechanics where it does some amount of damage to each target, but certainly *most* of the damage is divided.

10/03/2012 07:46 PMPosted by Hirai
They handed out nerfs and didn't buff anything.


Paladins using Seal of Insight got a buff, and so did Brewmasters.

10/03/2012 07:46 PMPosted by Hirai
Bleeding Wounds doing less damage? Less Single-Target Damage. The huge nerfs to Revenge? It already took forever to kill mobs in solo play without very much Vengeance.


Deep Wound was putting out nearly as much threat as Consecration, Seal of Righteousness, and Hammer of the Righteous combined. On its own. Without taking into account Heroic Leap or Thunder Clap or anything else.
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
So basically, if it doesn't do enough damage to threaten you, it should take 3 hours to kill it?

I liked 4.3 better; Prot actually did decent enough DPS that you could solo quest with it and not feel like a wimp doing so.

I realize that IN GROUPS, they needed balanced, but surely there was some other way that didn't kill solo play.


Heavily exaggerating numbers does not help your case in any way, shape or form.

There are precious few instances from 85 to 90 that do not permit you to exploit Vengeance in some form or another. I can count the ones I encountered on one hand.

These complaints are baseless.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18070
I leveled from 85-90 as prot, very little of it in dungeons, none of it with much rested. I basically killed stuff solo & I didn't mind it.

After this I'm finding my prot spec just about unplayable for dailies.

Stats are 5.39% hit (capped versus 91), 4.45% expertise (0.05% off dodge capped versus 91), 1.73% haste and 6.74% crit (I'm in partial unreforged 350/363 dps plate). I have the Zen Alchemist's trinket (str proc). I'm using Maki's Mashing Mace. I'm glyphed for Alabaster Shield. 8301 strength, 456 ilvl equipped, I had BoM up at the time (whups).

Using a HoW>^WB>CS>J>AS>Cons>HW>SS rotation and Seal of Truth, slotting in Execution Sentence on the highest HP mob when it's available. I'm fighting groups of 3x Shoa-Tien mogu for the dailies, using a ST rotation with the two extras to take splash damage from AS/Cons/HW.

My DPS without using 2/3 minute CDs has ranged between 12.7 to 14.7k.

The mobs have 590k health each. So that's about 118 seconds, or 40 seconds a mob.

If I pulled them individually, it'd be slower. If I blow all CDs I can top out at 18k on a single mob every 3 minutes.

It should also be noted that I'm doing no self healing during that and I typically end at about half heath, so I need to stop and heal myself back up afterwards. It's slower if I try to maintain my health so I can keep grinding on.

As someone who was perfectly happy leveling a paladin from 1->90 since BC in purely prot spec (I have never done any leveling as ret), I regard this as untenable solo dps.

I haven't experimented properly with raid or dungeon use yet, but I don't expect to have significant issues if I can hold the mob(s) long enough to stack some vengeance. I was extremely low DPS while doing Stone Guard, but I was deliberately in a survival mode and experimenting with SoI (lol) so that was expected.
Edited by Lakhesís on 10/3/2012 8:58 PM PDT
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90 Orc Death Knight
8960
The implementation of this is idiotic. SoT has been THE tanking seal for years. Ninja-switching us to SoI is unfair, stupid, pointless, and is punitive to much of the player base. Most people do not log into the forums; by Blizz's own statements, only a tiny, minute fraction ever go onto the forums. Not many more actually read updates and Dev announcements like this. The overwhelming majority of Prot Paladins will NEVER KNOW THAT BLIZZ SWITCHED THEIR SEAL.


Considering lots of Paladins that don't read anything about WoW have used Insight when SoT was the 'tanking seal,' I don't see why it matters.

Of course, if they bothered to read their abilities, unlike pretty much every paladin complaining in this thread, they might see that SoI is a big survivability increase over SoT.

But reading is hard.
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