Guardian Dmg from Bleeds

90 Worgen Druid
15995
Ok after killing the 1st boss in Mogushan Palace last night I noticed a glaring hole in our Active Mitagation being the inverse of the other tanks.

Our Mastery is static armor so we take full dmg from thier bleeds.
Our Active Mitagation is Dodge so we're still taking full dmg from thier stupid bleeds.

During the Stone Guard fight I was the OT with only 1 active Mob at a time while my Co-Tank held the other Two. Yet at the end of the fight on all of our attempts including our kill I took between 8-12% more dmg then he would.

The Rend Flesh bleed they did simply shredded me and we found that all I could really do to make it easier on our healers was to use Glyph of Frenzied Regeneration to make it easier to heal me while the incoming damage wrecked my poor bear.
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90 Troll Druid
7385
My guild couldnt handle it. I thought I was slightly overgeared to start raiding if anything, but the unavoidable damage from Jade Shards, Melee attacks and Rend Flesh is so very very high. Our healers simply dont have enough gas to keep us alive, im ending every wipe with an action bar full of spent cooldowns and it is still woefully inadequate to beat the encounter.

Gonna be farming heroics, getting me and my guild some of the better itemized 463's from heroics. Get the craftable epics done as well. Ill also get my second piece valour point gear next week, hopefully ill be able to handle it then.

If its still a ridiculous level of damage after all that, then its simply overtuned. I dont know man, maybe I just suck. This is the first time ive ever taken raiding seriously and I dont know whether this is just too damm hard or not.
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90 Human Warrior
13005
If only we had told Blizzard during beta that having tank mitigation function in fundamentally different ways would lead to significant encounter imbalances! Surely, such a problem would have been swiftly rectified if it were pointed out early on.
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90 Worgen Death Knight
13110
We killed it last night, as Druid+DK, its not that bad.

I should clarify, the dogs hit rather hard, and we ran with 3 healers, but our healers were having more problems with Jade Chains than tank healing, when we started ignoring the chains we saw better progress and a kill.
Edited by Nìkolus on 10/3/2012 7:13 AM PDT
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90 Troll Death Knight
11960
10/03/2012 07:10 AMPosted by Muspel
If only we had told Blizzard during beta that having tank mitigation function in fundamentally different ways would lead to significant encounter imbalances! Surely, such a problem would have been swiftly rectified if it were pointed out early on.


And if only there was a simple fix that only requires the class design team and the raid design team to communicate. PREPOSTEROUS!
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90 Human Warlock
16700
10/03/2012 07:10 AMPosted by Muspel
If only we had told Blizzard during beta that having tank mitigation function in fundamentally different ways would lead to significant encounter imbalances! Surely, such a problem would have been swiftly rectified if it were pointed out early on.

I'm amazed nobody pointed out how bleeds would completely wreck one tank, but another tank would do stellar against them. It's like we weren't even paying attention!
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90 Orc Death Knight
8890
Frenzied Regen more?
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90 Pandaren Monk
15630
We killed it last night, as Druid+DK, its not that bad.

I should clarify, the dogs hit rather hard, and we ran with 3 healers, but our healers were having more problems with Jade Chains than tank healing, when we started ignoring the chains we saw better progress and a kill.


So much this.

When you ignore the chains, and accept that you'll have several "pairs" forced to move together through the fight, it's a walk in the park.

Healing chains with all the dmg going on is just insane.

Without the chains, keep tanks up should be a non-issue. With or without a bleed.
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90 Night Elf Druid
13785
Heavy bleeds that aren't mitigated by Armor/Dodge!

Frenzied Regeneration to the rescue!!!

Seriously though I haven't done the raids yet but a steady stack of DoTs flowing sounds like FR spam to me.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8890
Thick Hide is 12% phys reduction too.
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90 Worgen Druid
15995
To all the people saying FR more please read my post I used Glyph'd FR and yes we got the kill. I am pointing out a glaring hole in comparison amongst the tanks.

Yes we all said this in Beta.... Clearly they didn't listen. We also talked about Warrior and Pally dmg being too low in Beta they Finally fixed that. We mentioned that the JP vendors being tied to rep was awful and yes they fixed that. My Goal here was to address a problem.

The Fact is our guild got the kill so while it is doable there is an absurd difference in dmg taken between the two tanks espicially when I was only tanking one and getting wrecked compared to my Co-Tank with 2.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
I just stuck FR to a mousewheel and spammed it. Only time I died was if healers managed to outrange me.

Don't glyph FR. If you glyph FR, you're dependant on being spamhealed like all hell as opposed to actually putting out decent healing, which is naturally going to make you feel like you're being wrecked because you've gone with the option of putting burden on the healers.
Edited by Slashlove on 10/3/2012 12:51 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
13785
I just stuck FR to a mousewheel and spammed it. Only time I died was if healers managed to outrange me.

Don't glyph FR. If you glyph FR, you're dependant on being spamhealed like all hell as opposed to actually putting out decent healing, which is naturally going to make you feel like you're being wrecked because you've gone with the option of putting burden on the healers.


This. The point of us saying "Use FR more" is to say that glyphing it isn't always the best option and both versions are forms of dealing with non-Armor mitigated, non-combat table attacks.

Glyphed you are increasing the healing output of your healing team so you are utterly reliant upon them for your AM contribution. It is by no means a piddly contribution if the heals are often enough and large enough AND MOST IMPORTANTLY your Healers and YOU are comfortable with it. Unglyphed means the Healers have no shift in perception when healing you and you naturally recoup a chunk of the damage you're taking consistently. With solid Vengeance amounts you will self-heal for quite a bit with unglyphed FR, possibly more than what is added by being glyphed depending on the encounter and your healing team.

The disparity isn't so much that we have no way to deal with non-Armor/Combat Table stuff, its that how we deal with it isn't exactly favored or something we're comfortable with. We'd prefer a big damage absorb or a Magic Fur spell, not a self-heal. But its what we have and it surprisingly works quite well.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Ehh... really, that's more a "monks and DKs have an advantage" thing than a "druids are behind" thing. You can't block bleed ticks, either.
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This shows the huge massive destructive flaw of savage defense imo. All other tanks active mitigation is some type of an absorb. No matter what their static mitigation is if they pop their active mitigation they take less damage for its duration.

Ours is completely different and beyond broken. Before patch i hated savage defense but felt it was okay, that was when we had over 30% dodge so the additional 45% dodge from savage defense put us at above 70% and we could count on it to reduce damage even though rng gods are stronger then blizzard thinks they are.

Right now we are ranging from 8% dodge up to 12% dodge, with that 45% dodge we are barely getting to 55% dodge which is absolutely !@#$ in regards to damage reduction cause in theory your going to take every other hit.

I don't care if we supposedly have the highest form of static mitigation i'd rather we have no static mitigation and take a huge nerf there and instead have a new active mitigation that i can count on to reduce my damage taken. It would remove so many problems.

Last night our guild did the new raid and we had 2 10 man groups. I used to main tank for my guild but was demoted to 4th tank (aka back up incase someone doesn't show when we start 25 mans) and was told they would rather wait up to a month for me to reroll any other type of tank from 0 to 90 rather then try and deal with me tanking as a druid. Every healer in my guild hates druid tanks right now and this includes every druid tank they have seen in normal/heroics/challenge mode.

In our run last night i easly took double the amount of damage that the other monk tank took and the dk/paladin in the other raid. I was running at a 461 ilvl and they were at 460/462/462.

ALSO druid threat is beyond crap in my opinion. On those dog packs the monk was only using his aoe threat abilities and i had to repeatedly taunt off and ferociously try and use single threat abilities to keep one dog on me and still couldn't unless i taunted. Besides the fact that he was ##%!!#@#*# the meters in dps. In heroics aoe threat is also terrible with dps pulling off all the time...

I'm so sick of druids....

I don't want to hear that things will change as we get better gear because your just trying to say that as you overgear things instances/raids get better.. well ya if you overgear it you should. Yet we shouldn't be struggling this bad with ilvl meant for current encounters. I'm not saying things should be easy, but i see other tanks not having a problem and the druid tanks i know, 2 in my guild, 3 in another are about to quit and switch classes.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8890
My guild killed it on 25 last night with a Prot Warrior, Druid, and Blood DK. Sounds like being a Druid isn't the problem.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
This shows the huge massive destructive flaw of savage defense imo. All other tanks active mitigation is some type of an absorb. No matter what their static mitigation is if they pop their active mitigation they take less damage for its duration.


Savage Defense is not our only ability.

Last night our guild did the new raid and we had 2 10 man groups. I used to main tank for my guild but was demoted to 4th tank (aka back up incase someone doesn't show when we start 25 mans) and was told they would rather wait up to a month for me to reroll any other type of tank from 0 to 90 rather then try and deal with me tanking as a druid. Every healer in my guild hates druid tanks right now and this includes every druid tank they have seen in normal/heroics/challenge mode.

In our run last night i easly took double the amount of damage that the other monk tank took and the dk/paladin in the other raid. I was running at a 461 ilvl and they were at 460/462/462.

ALSO druid threat is beyond crap in my opinion. On those dog packs the monk was only using his aoe threat abilities and i had to repeatedly taunt off and ferociously try and use single threat abilities to keep one dog on me and still couldn't unless i taunted. Besides the fact that he was ##%!!#@#*# the meters in dps. In heroics aoe threat is also terrible with dps pulling off all the time...


PEBKAC issue.
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our problem was we were the thrown together 2nd group that ended up with 2 healers instead of 3. I'm not saying druids are the problem either i'm saying other tanks are doing a lot better, taking less damage, doing more damage and can put out more threat. oh and the amount of healers has nothing to do with the fact that i took double the amount of damage as the other tank.

I never said in my post that due to how much damage i took we couldn't down the first boss but of course when ever someone brings up a problem they have with any class on these forums the only response by the general public is to blame the player. Thank for your constructive feedback... /end sarcasm
Edited by Icefalcon on 10/3/2012 2:49 PM PDT
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10/03/2012 02:40 PMPosted by Slashlove
This shows the huge massive destructive flaw of savage defense imo. All other tanks active mitigation is some type of an absorb. No matter what their static mitigation is if they pop their active mitigation they take less damage for its duration.


Savage Defense is not our only ability.



no its not but when barkskin/survival instincts/bone shield/defense trinkets are on cooldown and not enough rage to keep up frenzied regen and savage defense, we are left with active mitigation right? Or do you have a unique playstyle that can remove the cooldown of our other damage reducing abilties letting you keep them up more often, because that would be a more beneficial post then 'you suck'.
Edited by Icefalcon on 10/3/2012 2:51 PM PDT
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90 Orc Death Knight
8890
our problem was we were the thrown together 2nd group that ended up with 2 healers instead of 3. I'm not saying druids are the problem either i'm saying other tanks are doing a lot better, taking less damage, doing more damage and can put out more threat. oh and the amount of healers has nothing to do with the fact that i took double the amount of damage as the other tank.


So the problem was you were in the bad group? AND that you were a druid?

Lets see a log before anyone believes you took double the damage.
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