Brewmaster Mastery Stacking

90 Pandaren Monk
7050
I've studied all the BM theorycrafting I can find. Most of the models I have found (e.g. the theorycrafting on EJ), suggest the BM stat priority should be:

Agi > Exp = Hit > Haste > Crit > Parry > Dodge > Mastery

The theorycrafter math seems to be right, but misguided. The reason being that most of the models are based on maximizing pure damage reduction + healing, which is problematic for a couple reasons, namely (note my personal modifier to stat priority in parenthesis for each factor):

      Assumes Avoidance = Mitigation (++Mastery): As any good healer will tell you, smooth damage (i.e. mitigation) is easier and more efficient to heal than spikey damage (i.e. avoidance). The value of smooth damage is the reason CTC capping was so powerful in Cata. Thus, I put a significant premium on mastery, our only mitigation stat.

      1% Mastery > 1% Effective Health (+Mastery): I am certain every theorycrafter knows this, but it's worth mentioning because it's important. At 10% mastery (50% stagger, with shuffle up), +1% mastery = +2% EH, assuming a quick purify after a spike of course (e.g. a 100 dmg unmitigated hit goes from 50 to 49, a 2% reduction). At 20% mastery (not currently possible), +1% mastery = +2.5% EH.

      Assumes Efficient Use of Gift of the Ox Heals (-Exp, Hit, Haste): Personally, I am not convinced that I will be able to use Gift of the Ox healing spheres efficiently for a multitude of reasons: timing, movement, awareness, etc. Also, in tank swap fights, I should already have a pool of healing spheres ready to go if needed (sort of like an extra cooldown) from my time not tanking - without the need for hit and expertise to maximize sphere generation. Finally, I strongly favor damage reduction over reactive healing because you can't heal yourself if you're dead from spike damage.

    Some Models Include Raid Damage Reduction from Statute (-Exp, Hit, Haste, Crit, Agi): Increased BM dps increases guards from the ox statue, which are never applied to the BM. While generally helpful, I view personal survivability as my #1 priority as a tank, and raid damage is often efficiently healed by healer AE heals.

    Hit and Exp Have No Impact on Elusive Brew (-Hit, Exp): Any theorycrafter worth his/her salt knows this, and any competent model already accounts for this, but I thought it was worth mentioning since it is not necessarily intuitive. Hit and expertise do not increase the number of crits you will get for the purposes of Elusive Brew uptime.

    Chi Generation for Active Mitigation Not a Problem (for me at least) (-Hit, Exp): I have not personally found chi generation without hit and expertise to be problematic in managing my AM abilities. I use WeakAuras to track my cooldowns and shuffle timers very carefully, and I find that my chi generation is sufficient. Of course YMMV on this one in particular.

As you can see from my gear, I have put this generally methodology into practice. My personal stat priority, point for point, is:

Agi > Mastery > Parry > Dodge > Crit > Haste > Hit = Exp

If I find I'm getting gibbed in a couple hits raiding, I will probably move stam into the equation after Mastery to a comfortable level.

Empirically, I have found this stat priority to be very successful. I feel much sturdier in Heroics (pulling 2-4 packs of trash at a time easily), and healers I have grouped with have said the same. Following the theorycrafter stat priority, I had a couple healers comment that I seemed squishy relative to other tanks (though I still had no problem completing the dungeons). I have not yet raided (start tonight), so no empirical evidence to offer there.

As a side note, I find trinkets with mitigation/avoidance cooldowns to be very powerful for monks, since they make very nice fillers for when we have nothing but Shuffle active.

As another side note, if I find that my survivability is in good shape, and my raid is hitting enrage timers, I will probably align myself with the theorycrafter priority, since it is a substantial boost to tank dps.

As a third side note, I am not claiming to be a theorycrafter, this is simply my perspective on BM stat priority based on observations and back-of-the napkin math.

Finally a request, if any theorycrafters are reading this, I think it would be very helpful to find a way to work "smoothness" into your models. For example, calculating average the standard deviation of damage taken each second/tick.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7050
TLDR: If you're feeling a bit squishy and the problem isn't skill usage, try:

Agi > Mastery > Parry > Dodge > Crit > Haste > Hit = Exp
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90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
Finally a request, if any theorycrafters are reading this, I think it would be very helpful to find a way to work "smoothness" into your models. For example, calculating average the standard deviation of damage taken each second/tick.


The reason why they dont add 'smoothness' into their models is because its not the most effective survivability.

hit/exp(to hardcap) has the best controlled survivability, but relies more on skill of managing and collecting orbs and using guard in conjunction with self healing and dealing damage to bubble pad the raid.

Mastery will definitely be strong on specific fights in raids, theres notably a couple in Mogu'shan Vaults that mastery stacking will be extremely strong. But for what its worth, carrying some extra mastery gear if you need it is the way to go.

If you have no intention or dont find yourself having the attention required to manage orbs with your health, the value of expertise goes down and mastery is a little more valuable.

My personal issue with mastery is that it doesn't scale quickly enough for me to want to put alot of stats into it, when haste and expertise can give me more effective self-management.
Edited by Advanced on 10/3/2012 8:59 AM PDT
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90 Undead Monk
8770
Imo, hit/exp should be before anything, especially as a tank. One missed keg smash, and that can cause serious problems with chi generation, or a DPS dieing from threat.
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90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
10/03/2012 08:58 AMPosted by Iïlïlïlïl
Imo, hit/exp should be before anything, especially as a tank. One missed keg smash, and that can cause serious problems with chi generation, or a DPS dieing from threat.


When I was testing different builds, threat was never a problem. Its more of a joke than anything these days. I'm overflowing with chi and i dont even have that much haste.
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100 Human Monk
17830
Threat is a non-issue, but missing Keg Smashes can be pretty brutal.
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90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
10/03/2012 09:07 AMPosted by Kryalice
Threat is a non-issue, but missing Keg Smashes can be pretty brutal.


Yea, I know that feeling. :( once in a blue moon.

10/03/2012 08:49 AMPosted by Mushi
If I find I'm getting gibbed in a couple hits raiding, I will probably move stam into the equation after Mastery to a comfortable level.


Back to the OP,

The main thing with mastery is that if you are taking alot of damage in, you have to spend more in PB. If you dont have the haste and shuffle uptime to support that, stacking mastery will hurt more than help and you will actually ahve less avoidance uptime.

Since you get 20% parry and 30% dodge (here and there) stacking avoidance stats will just devalue those stats when you have the buffs active through DR (unless i'm wrong about this. But i'm farily sure its the case)
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86 Undead Death Knight
10495
The issue with stacking Mastery is that it does not reduce the damage you take *at all* unless you use Purifying Brew within roughly 20 seconds of taking damage and excess purification requires prohibitive levels of haste.
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86 Undead Death Knight
10495
10/03/2012 09:16 AMPosted by Advanced
Since you get 20% parry and 30% dodge (here and there) stacking avoidance stats will just devalue those stats when you have the buffs active through DR (unless i'm wrong about this. But i'm farily sure its the case)
In general, flat "Grants X% Parry/Dodge", especially from temporary buffs, does not interact with diminishing returns. It bears testing, but in the past this has been the case.
Edited by Descretoria on 10/3/2012 9:22 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
11455

    Assumes Efficient Use of Gift of the Ox Heals (-Exp, Hit, Haste): Personally, I am not convinced that I will be able to use Gift of the Ox healing spheres efficiently for a multitude of reasons: timing, movement, awareness, etc. Also, in tank swap fights, I should already have a pool of healing spheres ready to go if needed (sort of like an extra cooldown) from my time not tanking - without the need for hit and expertise to maximize sphere generation. Finally, I strongly favor damage reduction over reactive healing because you can't heal yourself if you're dead from spike damage.

I was tanking Stone Guard last night- even when tanking two at once, picking up GotOx orbs really isn't that hard. Now, it's certainly a playstyle thing, but even if all you do is hold down A and D for a little while every few seconds, you'll pick up all your GotOx orbs without a problem. You don't even need to think about them after a while, you just go "Okay, I'm at 60%, let's move two steps to the right. Okay, 60% again, move to the left." and repeat that cycle.

    Hit and Exp Have No Impact on Elusive Brew (-Hit, Exp): Any theorycrafter worth his/her salt knows this, and any competent model already accounts for this, but I thought it was worth mentioning since it is not necessarily intuitive. Hit and expertise do not increase the number of crits you will get for the purposes of Elusive Brew uptime.


...If you miss a swing that would crit then you don't get EB stacks. More hit = more crits = more EB. Unless Blizz has put something in designed to compensate for every miss, I don't see how what you're claiming is possible.
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86 Undead Death Knight
10495
10/03/2012 09:23 AMPosted by Wisemuffins
...If you miss a swing that would crit then you don't get EB stacks. More hit = more crits = more EB. Unless Blizz has put something in designed to compensate for every miss, I don't see how what you're claiming is possible.


He's referring to the One Roll system in which you cannot miss a crit. Instead of checking, "Hit, Miss, Blocked, Dodged, or Parried" and then, "Hit, Crit, Glance" (two 'rolls'), the potential outcomes of a white attack are instead all added to one table and then checked once. Under this system, increasing your chance to hit does not increase the crit portion of the table at all, and increasing your chance to miss does not reduce the crit portion of the table.

There are more advanced discussions of this in other places, but hopefully the basic idea makes sense. I heard Blizzard wanted to remove one-roll attacks for MOP but I guess it never went through.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7050
...If you miss a swing that would crit then you don't get EB stacks. More hit = more crits = more EB. Unless Blizz has put something in designed to compensate for every miss, I don't see how what you're claiming is possible.

You are simply mistaken. For white hits (all that matters for EB) it's a single roll system that looks like:

A% miss
B% dodge
C% parry
D% glancing blow
E% normal hit
F% crit

Where A+B+C+D+E+F = 100%

It is not a two-roll system as you are suggesting, so you do not have to hit before you can crit.
Edited by Mushi on 10/3/2012 9:38 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
7050
10/03/2012 08:57 AMPosted by Advanced
The reason why they dont add 'smoothness' into their models is because its not the most effective survivability.

I think you did not understand my point. Spike damage kills tanks and/or forces healers to use CD's and/or more expensive heals vs. slower more efficient heals and HoTs. That is always the tradeoff in healing.

hit/exp(to hardcap) has the best controlled survivability, but relies more on skill of managing and collecting orbs and using guard in conjunction with self healing and dealing damage to bubble pad the raid.

Hit/Exp gives you two things for personal survivability, more reliable chi generation and more GotOx procs. I haven't found chi generation to be limiting, which is to say it doesn't limit my shuffle or guard uptime, and thus far I have had enough for PB as it's needed. After shuffle, guard and PB, extra chi just goes to cleansing lighter PB's which isn't really that important as lighter PB ticks are already covered by HoT's, which would otherwise just be overhealing.

For me personally, the jury is still out on extra GoTOx balls vs. extra mitigation, but I feel pretty confident I will continue to prefer the extra mitigation.
Edited by Mushi on 10/3/2012 9:50 AM PDT
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86 Undead Death Knight
10495
Ultimately, at the end of the day, tanking is about how you and your group succeed. No amount of theorycraft will change the fact that if you've found something that's working for you, you should stick with it :)
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90 Pandaren Monk
8380
Does mastery need to be our best stat? I don't think or want it to be. I find it is very useful to smooth out damage and reduce it as we remove our stagger. I love that haste and crit are so good and wouldn't change it.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7050
Since you get 20% parry and 30% dodge (here and there) stacking avoidance stats will just devalue those stats when you have the buffs active through DR (unless i'm wrong about this. But i'm farily sure its the case)

As Descretoria suggested, shuffle and EB do not interact with DR on parry/dodge. Quite the opposite they make them more valuable. With a base 20% parry on all the time (I am a firm believer in 100% shuffle uptime), and say 10% dodge, a 1% increase in parry is a 1.4% increase in survivability (i.e. 100 swings, 70 would have landed with just shuffle, now 69 will land, a 1.4% increase in avoidance).

This concept of mitigation and avoidance getting stronger the more you get is the reason DR is necessary to game design (i.e. with no DR these stats would have asymptotic behavior - at the extreme going from 99% mitigation to 100% mitigation is an infinite increase in survivability).
Edited by Mushi on 10/3/2012 10:13 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
7050
10/03/2012 10:08 AMPosted by Brewmook
Does mastery need to be our best stat? I don't think or want it to be. I find it is very useful to smooth out damage and reduce it as we remove our stagger. I love that haste and crit are so good and wouldn't change it.

So far I'm the only monk I know of that thinks mastery has a shot at being our best secondary stat. So I wouldn't worry too much.

Though I do think crit is still a very strong stat because of the power of elusive brew. However, I think haste is overrated.
Edited by Mushi on 10/3/2012 10:22 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
6355
What is the rotation the lot of you currently use? I typically use Keg Smash, Breath of Fire (even if it doesn't apply the dot, maybe I just like the effect, is this wrong?) then Jab for Chi, Keep up Tiger Power and then spam Blackout Kick until my Gaurd lights up and then I hit that. I use Elusive Brew sometimes, when my gaurd isn't up just to help me dodge til it lights up. I haven't run into any issues...but it's just kinda boring. Anything I am missing out on? Any more complexity or intricacy to this?
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90 Pandaren Monk
8545
Althought my gear is not the best I find using the theorycrafting stat priority extremely spikey. I am gonna try this priority tonight. It makes sense that overall mitigating more would help the raid overall better than the extra orbs. Removing the spike will relieve the need for healers to blow their load on you. Also I agree that mitigating more is worth the trade of having less orbs around for simplicity. Although I am concerned with having hit rating so low. But I'll toss it in to Mr robot tonight and see what's up. Last night we tried the first fight in vaults. Granted my gear isn't awesome but the warrior I was tanking with has just slightly better. He tanked the double and I offtanked the single. During the attempts, for instance, he took say. 5.8bill dmg and I took near 4bill and I was tanking a single one. That was rather disheartening for me. Bc I even got a few second break during taunts with nothing attacking me. So I'm looking for an alternative.
Edited by Hitmonchamp on 10/3/2012 10:44 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
8545
I am curious however about the elusive brew uptime. I've thought that at higher gear lvls using the theorycrafting stats you could achieve close to 100% uptime. But I'm not sure on how that will work out yet. Maybe the mastery spec will be the better of the two until gear has enough stats to keep elusive up longer.
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