Brewmaster Mastery Stacking

90 Pandaren Monk
11455
10/03/2012 09:34 AMPosted by Descretoria
...If you miss a swing that would crit then you don't get EB stacks. More hit = more crits = more EB. Unless Blizz has put something in designed to compensate for every miss, I don't see how what you're claiming is possible.


He's referring to the One Roll system in which you cannot miss a crit. Instead of checking, "Hit, Miss, Blocked, Dodged, or Parried" and then, "Hit, Crit, Glance" (two 'rolls'), the potential outcomes of a white attack are instead all added to one table and then checked once. Under this system, increasing your chance to hit does not increase the crit portion of the table at all, and increasing your chance to miss does not reduce the crit portion of the table.

There are more advanced discussions of this in other places, but hopefully the basic idea makes sense. I heard Blizzard wanted to remove one-roll attacks for MOP but I guess it never went through.


Huh. I had no idea it worked like this.

That'd explain my confusion. Regardless, if you can handle your GotOx orbs correctly, hit is still the king, but for fights where you can't, mastery is likely the best, unless the boss does HUGE swings and not much else (see: Patchwerk), in which case crit would likely be best to ensure you get far higher uptime on Elusive Brew. Blizz is steering away from fights with no real mechanics though, so I don't know if that'd ever become the case any time soon.
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90 Orc Monk
10295
10/03/2012 08:58 AMPosted by Iïlïlïlïl
Imo, hit/exp should be before anything, especially as a tank. One missed keg smash, and that can cause serious problems with chi generation, or a DPS dieing from threat.


Threat hasn't been an issue for a long time since it was re-worked...
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90 Pandaren Monk
7050
10/03/2012 10:39 AMPosted by Hitmonchamp
I am curious however about the elusive brew uptime. I've thought that at higher gear lvls using the theorycrafting stats you could achieve close to 100% uptime. But I'm not sure on how that will work out yet. Maybe the mastery spec will be the better of the two until gear has enough stats to keep elusive up longer.

Here are my thoughts and back-of-the-napkin math on crit/EB. Assuming a 2H weapon (since it is simpler than a 1H scenario), with no haste we swing a 3.6 speed weapon every 2.4 seconds (due to 40% white hit attack speed from Way of the Monk, and 10% attack speed raid buff). One crit averages three charges of EB (if I understand Crithto correctly http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6397900436#2 ).

Thus 1% crit translates to 1% chance for 3 seconds of EB every 2.4 seconds. So over the course of 300 seconds (a convenient time frame) for full EB uptime you would have to crit 100 times out of 125 swings. This would require 80% crit, which I doubt we will see in this expansion.

As an aside, I believe this also means that 1% crit is roughly the avoidance equivalent of 0.375% of dodge or parry (1% * 0.3* 3/2.4). This is why I prioritize dodge and parry over crit for personal survivability.

If anyone has better math on this, I would love to see it. I'm not 100% confident in this analysis.
Edited by Mushi on 10/3/2012 11:28 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
I think you did not understand my point. Spike damage kills tanks and/or forces healers to use CD's and/or more expensive heals vs. slower more efficient heals and HoTs. That is always the tradeoff in healing.


I did understand your point, I just dont agree with it because i've never had a serious issue with spike damage that I didn't premptively rectify with EH or orbs. By never, i mean never. Including 3/6 normal modes last night. I tried a mastery build last night for gara'jal which felt better, but only to help pad down the voodoo doll damage. Even then, the difference was negligible. I was building a 40s stagger before the other tank phased so I had plenty of time to PB. Thats literally the only fight this instance that mastery/avoidance is better than the general theorycrafter data, in my opinion, but its still not by much. On our (very easy and underwhelming) kill, i was using a full hit/exp build and it was honestly easier than the mastery build, althought the healers had to heal the dolls a tiny bit more when I didn't have some form of cooldown rolling.

Honestly, I can't say I dropped passed 40% health but a couple times and that was when a healer was occupied, but it only took me 1s to strafe to full health again into gotx, effectively removing the need for them to heal me while they are busy.

I'm not dismissing your mastery idea, but saying theorycrafters are misguided for opinionated and non-numerical reasons is pretty unconvincing. Coming from a healing background, and a guild full of top-tier healers; I never thought spike damage was an issue. It'll happen, but not to the degree you're talking about. ICC is long gone.

So far I'm the only monk I know of that thinks mastery has a shot at being our best secondary stat. So I wouldn't worry too much.

Though I do think crit is still a very strong stat because of the power of elusive brew. However, I think haste is overrated.


once you start raiding you'll realize the value of haste and might understand a little better about how mastery really effects you. I go through dungeons and never see yellow stagger. That will change.

As an aside, I believe this also means that 1% crit is roughly the avoidance equivalent of 0.375% of dodge or parry (1% * 0.3* 3/2.4). This is why I prioritize dodge and parry over crit for personal survivability.


What you're effectively trying to do is ignore a portion of active mitigation by stacking a weaker semi-passive and passive mitigation. Having control > assuming intake, at least for progression raiders and especially for brewmasters, in my experience.

Just so you're aware, I'd say most theorycrafters cater to progression raiding, not to comfy raiding.
Edited by Advanced on 10/3/2012 11:50 AM PDT
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85 Pandaren Monk
7965
The reason why hit/expertise is so important is that without reliable chi generation, we cannot maintain our shuffle buff from blackout kick as often. Not having it bites deeply into our durability, and we also have less frequent production of healing orbs.

Mastery gives us more shuffle benefits passively, but it doesn't do anything else and the amount of mastery needed to make it go up seems pretty steep. It also means you'll need a higher chi income since you'll be needing to purify more often. Except your chi generation is unreliable because you miss a lot.

See where I'm going with this?
Edited by Jienya on 10/3/2012 11:52 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
7050
10/03/2012 09:02 AMPosted by Advanced
When I was testing different builds, threat was never a problem. Its more of a joke than anything these days. I'm overflowing with chi and i dont even have that much haste.

10/03/2012 11:33 AMPosted by Advanced
once you start raiding you'll realize the value of haste and might understand a little better about how mastery really effects you. I go through dungeons and never see yellow stagger. That will change.

I'm not sure how you reconcile your two comments above. Also, I am really more thinking ahead about heroic mode tanking more so than normal modes. I have very little doubt that any reasonably spec'd monk could tank normal modes relatively easily (which does not mean optimally).

10/03/2012 11:33 AMPosted by Advanced
Coming from a healing background, and a guild full of top-tier healers; I never thought spike damage was an issue. It'll happen, but not to the degree you're talking about. ICC is long gone.

My basic assumption is that progression heroic raiding is full of spike damage that at worst kills the tank, or at best makes healers use mana-inefficient healing spells. If you don't agree with that assumption, then I understand why you wouldn't agree with my preference for mastery.
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90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
My basic assumption is that progression heroic raiding is full of spike damage that at worst kills the tank, or at best makes healers use mana-inefficient healing spells. If you don't agree with that assumption, then I understand why you wouldn't agree with my preference for mastery.


Because mastery isn't strong enough to warrant stacking it. At least not yet.
Even then, I'd be more likely to stack dodge and parry over mastery with the given shuffle bonus once I get enough haste and crit to be comfortable.

I'm not sure how you reconcile your two comments above. Also, I am really more thinking ahead about heroic mode tanking more so than normal modes. I have very little doubt that any reasonably spec'd monk could tank normal modes relatively easily (which does not mean optimally).

Because you're taking two things that aren't related and comparing them.
I'd say with good play, haste isn't as valuable as people make it out to be, but its still more valuable than mastery.
Threat isn't an issue, and stacking hit/exp isn't for threat. Thats where the comparison falls through.
As far as tanking normal modes, I can't see how mastery would be optimal at any point in time for any fight but garajal, where slowing direct damage intake helps a little bit. In pre-normal mode gear, it barely makes a difference.
For heroics, having the control of active mitigation is a godsend, since you can't always assume a healer is going to prioritize you, especially in 10m.

Since the fights are generally split tanks or solo tanked, you will spend alot of time with a boss on you, which means your shuffle uptime while clearing stagger and EB building is that much more important.
Edited by Advanced on 10/3/2012 12:01 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
7050
I'm not dismissing your mastery idea, but saying theorycrafters are misguided for opinionated and non-numerical reasons is pretty unconvincing.
..............
Just so you're aware, I'd say most theorycrafters cater to progression raiding, not to comfy raiding.

I am saying the assumptions on which they have built their models are creating misleading results. That is an opinion, but my rationale is fully laid out.

I have seen their models, and I understand how they are built and the math behind them. I have never been one to blindly follow other people's suggestions without understanding and questioning the reasoning and analysis behind them.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7050
Because mastery isn't strong enough to warrant stacking it. At least not yet.
Even then, I'd be more likely to stack dodge and parry over mastery with the given shuffle bonus once I get enough haste and crit to be comfortable.

You are making statements ("mastery isn't strong enough to warrant stacking it") without any providing any support. What is your support (mathematical or empirical) for stating "mastery isn't strong enough?"

That is exactly my reason for creating this thread, was to get other's opinions on this stat priority. But conclusory statements that mastery is bad provides no value.
Edited by Mushi on 10/3/2012 12:05 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
I am saying the assumptions on which they have built their models are creating misleading results. That is an opinion, but my rationale is fully laid out.


I'd be alot more comfortable with what you were saying if you didn't assume that you didn't take any damage from PB. The entire purpose of stagger is to even out blows; that doesn't assume you will be clearing all stagger damage every second you can.

My argument to your theory is that relying on mastery requires more PB usage (not now, but later down the road), which is an effective waste of chi when you can just EH, orb heal low stagger damage.

10/03/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Mushi
What is your support (mathematical or empirical) for stating "mastery isn't strong enough?"


because theres already math that shows haste and crit providing more damage reduction per second than mastery. Not to mention that you spend more time using chi on PB and less on EH, shuffle, guard (which is massive mitigation and self healing increase with high gift orb count)

When you're getting crushed because you can't reapply shuffle because you're not hit/exp focused and miss keg smashes, thats when things get sticky.
Edited by Advanced on 10/3/2012 12:23 PM PDT
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90 Troll Warlock
11210
Here are my thoughts and back-of-the-napkin math on crit/EB. Assuming a 2H weapon (since it is simpler than a 1H scenario), with no haste we swing a 3.6 speed weapon every 2.4 seconds (due to 40% white hit attack speed from Way of the Monk, and 10% attack speed raid buff). One crit averages three charges of EB (if I understand Crithto correctly http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6397900436#2 ).

Thus 1% crit translates to 1% chance for 3 seconds of EB every 2.4 seconds. So over the course of 300 seconds (a convenient time frame) for full EB uptime you would have to crit 100 times out of 125 swings. This would require 80% crit, which I doubt we will see in this expansion.

As an aside, I believe this also means that 1% crit is roughly the avoidance equivalent of 0.375% of dodge or parry (1% * 0.3* 3/2.4). This is why I prioritize dodge and parry over crit for personal survivability.

If anyone has better math on this, I would love to see it. I'm not 100% confident in this analysis.


Well, first off, the 40% haste from Way of the Monk and the 10% attack speed raid buff stack multiplicatively, not additively (ie. effective haste is 54% (1.4*1.1), not 50%). However, the crit chance necessary to maintain 100% uptime can be be determined (derivation left as an exercise) just as easily by dividing your attack speed by the duration of Elusive Brew achieved by a crit from your weapon. This is functionally equivalent to (WeaponSpeed/HasteMult)/(3.0*WeaponSpeed/3.6).

Handily, WeaponSpeed cancels out, so your crit chance necessary for 100% uptime is simply 1.2/HasteMult. HasteMult, in this case, is actually 1.54 * (1 + HasteRating%).

Quick table of values:

HasteRating%_____Crit
_0.00%__________77.92%
_5.00%__________74.21%
10.00%__________70.84%
15.00%__________67.76%
20.00%__________64.94%
25.00%__________62.34%
30.00%__________59.94%

So yes, your conclusion was accurate, even if you had a couple wrong equations.
Edited by Daerius on 10/3/2012 12:20 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
7050
10/03/2012 12:06 PMPosted by Advanced
I'd be alot more comfortable with what you were saying if you didn't assume that you didn't take any damage from PB. The entire purpose of stagger is to even out blows; that doesn't assume you will be clearing all stagger damage every second you can.

That's a fair point, and I think that will be the ultimate trick to maximizing the monk having a mastery preference. As I mentioned before, I have no problems with shuffle and guard uptime, so the ultimate question for heroic raids will be at what point extra PB's outweight the extra up front mitigation.

With my gear as it stands now, I will miss about 1/6 of my KS and jabs on a boss (shuffle still applies on a missed BoK). Granted it will take some time heroic raiding to really know if that is going to be to few PBs. It will also take some time to perfect skill usages so that there is no wasted time or energy generating chi.

Though, in tank swap fights, where you have 20-30 sec of shuffle, 4 chi (plus a couple chi balls from power strikes), and a bunch of GotOx procs ready to go when you taunt... monks are going to really shine with a mastery build.

Well, first off, the 40% haste from Way of the Monk and the 10% attack speed raid buff stack multiplicatively, not additively (ie. effective haste is 54% (1.4*1.1), not 50%).
-snip-

Thank you, that was very helpful.
Edited by Mushi on 10/3/2012 12:30 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
That's a fair point, and I think that will be the ultimate trick to maximizing the monk having a mastery preference. As I mentioned before, I have no problems with shuffle and guard uptime, so the ultimate question for heroic raids will be at what point extra PB's outweight the extra up front mitigation.

With my gear as it stands now, I will miss about 1/6 of my KS and jabs on a boss (shuffle still applies on a missed BoK). Granted it will take some time heroic raiding to really know if that is going to be to few PBs.


Its not that I dont like mastery, I really do. I just dont thinks its a stackable stat. Its definitely nice to have and I wouldn't dismiss it for an upgrade on gear; I just wouldn't go out of my way and assume it creates a noticeably smoother experience for healers (at least not yet). In raids (even normals in my experience) if you drop your attention for a few seconds and forget to pick up orbs, your stagger will hit yellow like no ones business. Part of the gift orb mitigation is helping the healers deal with stagger, and clearing it when it gets out of hand.

Part of the crit > mastery idea is to ensure you use EB when you know you're going to be taking damage, and save it for when you know you're not. My experience so far has been 100% knowing the timing of when to use things. The main misconception about EB is that people dont realize that its stacking in the background again even when its undergoing its duration, so when you're critting during its mitigation you're actively building more stacks behind the scenes. The most i've seen is 6 stacks of EB as soon as it was off CD again, which is more than enough to make me more comfortable when i need it.

For single tank and split tank fights (split like stoneguard where you are always taking damage), deciding when to use globals on cooldowns, damage abilities, keeping TP up etc really gets in the way of keeping shuffle and PB on use when necessary. In my hit/exp build, I have no trouble getting chi, and its not because of high haste, its because i'm effectively managing my chi.

Edit: on this note, I dont have alot of time to dump chi into shuffle (even though I keep its uptime high)

Basically if you're using PB in green you're effectively wasting chi. Since the dot does damage over time, you're not forced to use it immediately after every swing, or even in yellow if you have a means to offset the stagger dot.

10/03/2012 12:23 PMPosted by Mushi
Though, in tank swap fights, where you have 20-30 sec of shuffle, 4 chi (plus a couple chi balls from power strikes), and a bunch of GotOx procs ready to go when you taunt... monks are going to really shine with a mastery build.


I agree with this, and its what i mentioned earlier. If you're not spending a ton of time using globals on anything other than mitigation its fairly simple to dump into shuffle. (try to beat 50s on gara'jal before the first tank banish :3)

I'll be building a second mastery stacking set for that fight on heroic specifically because of how much of a difference it makes with voodoo dolls.

EDIT:
Once stats are easily cappable and you get enough crits to build reliable EB and enough haste to manage your chi, I believe mastery will start to shine. Just not yet. :]

Oh, and another tip.
If you're running with a resto shaman or a resto druid, low mastery is nice because the dots themselves pretty much offset low to medium stagger instead of overhealing, which effectively devalues mastery that much more. :(

EDITEDITL: Sorry for the mispellings, i'm trying to do some windwalker trinket math while we're chatting about this :P

To end my rebuttal, I think that mastery has its purposes and will be a useful stat when more of it can be attributed, but not yet. We're still in the early stages where stacking stats just isn't going to happen. :P
Edited by Advanced on 10/3/2012 12:53 PM PDT
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Personally I like mastery on all of the other tank specs (I mean classes) and I think I like to see the newest tank spec being more reliant on a different variety of stat values than the others. And the idea of an actually functional dual-wielding tank was getting me kind of psyched. :P

I don't think that the value that you'll get per point of mastery you put in will be worth it in the long run, as opposed to using the other stats for various other reasons. I don't know any of the math on this - but it looks like Monk was designed to be a smooth class to heal without stacking mastery, and therefore survivability in the long run by whatever math they have sounds best to me. Monks atm do have the potential to remove 40% of the damage from any heavy hits without mastery. Even with reforging OUT of mastery you can acquire a 45% easily, and more like a 50% if you have a mastery buff.

Also, just something I was figuring a moment ago: If you have 45% (I'll just use 50% for the sake of mental math) stagger up all the time, then you throw in 8% additional mastery on to the base 4% (which shouldn't be too tough if you reforge a bit into the stuff and have a mastery buff on), then that's actually the equivalent of a 16% decrease in damage from any hit that you purifying brew immediately after (in comparison to the base stagger), and a slightly less decrease (10% reduced from the decrease per second) in the damage from all prior attacks, finally scaling down to a 1.6% decrease in damage from a hit you took 10 seconds ago. So I can see how it would have a very noticeable effect if you use it right when you need to.

I'm still not 90 yet, so I don't know for sure how this will pan out, but Mastery looks like it could be a viable stat to stack - as it gets exponentially (albeit very slightly) more effective per point, as opposed to the way that haste gets slightly less effective per point - however I think that a good 2% buff from the 4% (6%) base would make it all the more viable. That would allow someone who was really stacking it to acquire about a 30% decrease (Edit: 30% less than having just a 50% stagger) from certain hits if using Purifying Brew immediately afterwards. I think that's about the kind of effect you'd want out of a stacked stat, am I right?
Edited by Êpïç on 10/7/2012 2:13 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Monk
7695
OP: I use what you say but I'd alter your statement. Until I was hit/exp cap my ability to have solid CHII Generation (Thus Guard/Expel/Purify) was !@#$. You *CANNOT* afford to miss/dodge/parry as a tank or your mitigation goes down.

Therefore I propose an alteration:

Hit/Exp to CAP > Agi > Mastery > Rest

Right now I'm sitting around 470k unbuffed HP, pulling 20-50k Single Target dps (as tank) depending on fight with upwards of 122k AE DPS on AE Fights. I'm sitting at 50-52% Stagger (depending if I have mastery buff) and can effectively keep my Stagger to less than 7-8k/s religiously. The maximum hit I receive in heroics has been under 10% of my health total. My avoidance is sitting anywhere from 38% - 68% on any given fight (38% is static).

I tested without Hit/Exp cap and my mitigation suffered dramatically because of the inability to reliably purify my own damage.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6460
I don't understand some of the people in this form but the facts r for any tank its mastery stam hit dodge and depending if your dw fist weapons or daggers or 2hander aka a staff u want exp its worked for me very well for threat and surviving in any fight the mastery for monks make u sager better this is another word for dodge all mastery is for is so u don’t take as much damage as a monk tank same as a dk kinda only u don’t heal yourself its the same concept u take less damage the higher your mastery is if something cant hit u theirs that much less healing to do if you r loosing threat i say rethink your rotation its simple taunt and don’t waste any time, Attack with aoes asap crankick works well then fill in with your rotation using crankick hear n there thats the best way to be a monk tank if you ask me. But don't take my word for it try it tweak it learn the monk just like all your outher toons if u r the type that has somone hold your hand through every thing the i say wow's not your game u do need to figure things ot and idk bout every one that tanks but im tired of teaching players how to dps on the spot while trying to tank learn your class thats what forims are for and theres this intoresting spaceage thing its called google.
Edited by Windfists on 12/31/2012 7:53 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Monk
5850
I'd have to say with the new 4 piece bonus for 5.4 I'd have to say mastery>crit I say this because you are pulling about 40k+ hps where more red stagger=higher health gain from PB that is my reasoning for starting mastery with the current 4piece
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100 Gnome Monk
8610
This thread is almost a year old.
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92 Blood Elf Monk
11865
This thread is almost a year old.


*over*
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As a healer I prefer smooth tanks versus spikey tanks. We only have so many global cool downs per second... One. And it really gimps us mana wise to have to go from regen/aoe healing and throwing a spot heal on a tank every once in awhile, to having to stay on a tank because he randomly loses half his life out of know where... And sometimes twice in a row. Brewmasters with lots of mastery are super easy to heal. So are mastery dks
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