Why we are energy starved.

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90 Human Rogue
8810
As I see it there is ONE reason and one reason only why we are starved of energy and it has very little to do with haste scaling. As a former deathklnight which uses an inverse resource system very similar to rogues, I must say that the double dipping of rogue finishers costing CPs and energy needs to be removed.

If finishers were to to cost only CP's and haste was no longer a factor in energy regeneration it would make it ALOT easier to prevent the scaling problems we see in rogues later in expansions while simultaneously bringing the class resource system in line with current melee with the exception of warriors. Other abilities could then be balanced with a more spammy state and make us feel more "active" in our combat rotations whether pvp or pve.

As Sin, I notice that in instances where I have 5 Cp's on a target and rupture and SND are already up I "feel" like envenom is huge waste of resources because of the double dipping for the pathetic damage it does. At 35 energy AND 5 cp's this has to be the most ridiculously expensive offensive attack in the game. It makes no sense what so ever to have to spend energy to gain CP's then to have to turn around and spend energy to use them as well.

Edit: This would also bring about what I believe to be the ideal role of a rogue in combat. That role should have always have been that of the quick striker. We get in and drop as much damage as possible as quickly as possible to take down the target. The longer we are out of stealth the more vulnerable we should become. With this in mind, the added burst would certainly offset our loss of control and instill fear in our targets once again.
Edited by Cloake on 10/5/2012 7:03 AM PDT
90 Goblin Rogue
3540
Totally agree with this. Was actually going to post the same thing yesterday but figured it would fall on deaf ears. :(

I never understood why it took so long to build up CP and then wait for energy..

Nice post, hopefully someone at Blizzard will take notice and at least explain the double dipping reasoning.
90 Goblin Rogue
10250
I don't know much about monks, but their system is similar to rogues right? Does their system use both resources for finishers?
90 Undead Rogue
9160
You are all forgetting that Blizz looks at Rogues as the model class that all other classes should mimic, I doubt they are going to change the way they work regardless of how great an idea it is...
90 Orc Rogue
12810
Do you guys remember way back when energy regenerated at 20 points every 2 seconds? Those were the days. :)

In response to the OP, I agree. I always thought it was double dipping that our finishers cost energy and combo points. Adding insult to injury is the fact that our finishers seem to have gotten relatively weaker of the years.
90 Night Elf Rogue
10400
It's an interesting idea. But:

10/05/2012 06:57 AMPosted by Cloake
Other abilities could then be balanced with a more spammy state and make us feel more "active" in our combat rotations whether pvp or pve.

At the end of the last expansion, Combat was already largely GCD capped -- and during Adrenaline Rush or Heroism would often find itself energy capped as well. If all finishers become energy-free, how do we avoid the same scenario unfolding much, much earlier in an expansion?

Envenom is actually a very powerful finisher; I'm not sure why you're so down on it. The attack itself bypasses armor, which no other straight-damage finisher can do (without Shadow Blades active), and it significantly enhances poison proc chance, which is a massive chunk of Assassination's damage.

I, for one, would not want to see the Assassination spec become spammy. It is specifically designed not to be that way, which is why the energy cost of Mutilate is so huge. It may be running slow at max level right now compared to where it was for much of Cata, but that will change pretty quickly as gear improves.

Regardless, if you remove the CP cost from finishers, you dramatically unbalance the class relative to all of the others. How do you propose to get that back? Do you make the CP builders incredibly weak, such that the only damage we can do at all will come from finishers? Do you slow our energy regen or increase the energy cost of CP builders so we can't cast as many of them, which would take us right back to where we are now?
Edited by Rfeann on 10/5/2012 8:18 AM PDT
90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
10/05/2012 08:15 AMPosted by Rfeann
(without Shadow Blades active)


Hold the phone.
I thought Shadow Blades only made auto-attacks do shadow damage.
Edited by Knocrogue on 10/5/2012 8:34 AM PDT
90 Night Elf Rogue
10400
10/05/2012 08:30 AMPosted by Knocrogue
(without Shadow Blades active)


Hold the phone.
I thought Shadow Blades only made auto-attacks do shadow damage.

Ooooops. So sorry. That is correct.

10/05/2012 08:23 AMPosted by Cloake
As of now Combo point generation is RNG, Energy generation is RNG, damage is RNG and ALL poison procs are RNG.

The entire *game* is RNG. RNG is at the essence of what makes gameplay interesting. Without RNG, procs would not exist, nor would effects like Blindside. I don't see your point.

Envenom also costs significantly less energy than the CP builders that come before it (though the actual energy cost per CP generated is roughly similar to the other specs), so I don't really get why you're picking on Envenom so much as the reason Assassination feels slow.

I'm gonna repeat my questions, because like I said I think this is an interesting topic, and I really want to explore it further without it descending into yet another of those "this sucks because I said so, and here's the perfect solution trust me" arguments that is neither helpful nor worth engaging in:
10/05/2012 08:15 AMPosted by Rfeann
Regardless, if you remove the CP cost from finishers, you dramatically unbalance the class relative to all of the others. How do you propose to get that back? Do you make the CP builders incredibly weak, such that the only damage we can do at all will come from finishers? Do you slow our energy regen or increase the energy cost of CP builders so we can't cast as many of them, which would take us right back to where we are now?
90 Night Elf Rogue
10400
Ugh, yeah, sorry. I'm riddled with holes today -- not enough sleep and no morning coffee. :)

The questions still hold; "CP" should just be replaced with "energy" wherever I put it.
90 Goblin Rogue
10250
I personally would rather deal with being gcd capped instead of waiting around for energy.
That's just my preference, I like feeling like I'm smashing dem keys for a reason.

The harder and faster I hit my keys the bigger the crits.
90 Undead Rogue
6020
The problem goes beyond the resource system.

Looking at how the talent/spec system has changed over the expansions we can see that blizzard has shifted its design philosophy from focusing on classes with 3 specs each to focusing on an economy of 33 specs as if they were individual classes. It has allowed them to make major changes to the mechanics of a spec without major disruption to the other 2 within the class.

The problem with rogues is nothing major has been done to Assassination, Combat, or Subtlety. The class is still in an antiquated state making our specs more like an arbitrary load-out than even our talents.

Assassination's Resolve - Vitality - Sinister Calling = Passive damage modifiers.
Venomous Wounds - Combat Potency - Energetic Recovery = Passive energy regen. mechanic.
Vendetta - Adrenaline Rush - Shadow Dance = Burst/DPS CD.

Pretty much every passive mechanism or ability one spec has the other 2 have something categorically similar, which results in nearly identical play styles. I've said it many times now that between specs I literally change 3-4 buttons. The specs CP generator, spec finisher, and the spec cooldown. All the passives do is alter the priority of rupture vs SnD and of secondary stat ratings like haste vs mastery.
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