Why we are energy starved.
An example of the differences that could be made would be as follows
Subtlety now has Enveloping shadows instead of CP's
Enveloping shadows builds up like demonic fury and entering the shadows consumes your shadow energy but allows you to enter a wraith mode which makes you impervious to 50% of damage and you gain access to shadow strike, Harbinger's blade, impending doom and wraith strike.
I think you could use both Enveloping Shadows and CP. Wouldn't be the first time a spec had 3 resources to worry about (unholy DKs and their ghoul charges).
Maybe Assassination could get something like, Poisoned Charge you start out with 3-5 of them and it takes :30sec. - 1min. to recharge each (different timer per charge). Using one charge empowers your next ability Envenom deals double damage, eliminates cast time for poison application, Smoke bomb deals poison damage, Vanish applies poison DoT to all enemies within 5yds.
OT: I was advocating for the removal of energy cost from finishers (and the removal of Relentless Strikes) during Beta. At present Rogues (and by extension Feral Druids) are the only class that has abilities costing multiple resources. DK, Warlock, Monk, and Paladin abilities cost a single resource.
Also I think Kidney Shot should not be a finisher and only cost Energy.... right now it feels unique (and not in a good way) in the Rogue arsenal. It's the only ability that costs both CP and energy while having a cooldown.
You claim that making finishers free would be a good thing and would solve our energy issues, yet when Relentless Strikes is brought up you say that things like Relentless Strikes are too convoluted, implying they should be removed, yet removing Relentless Strikes and making finishers free would be 2 changes that basically cancel eachother out. It'd do absolutely nothing to make us less energy starved.
Your complaint about RNG is also rather weak. As Rfeann said, RNG is the game, it has to be otherwise there's no game at all, because all outcomes are pre-determined. RNG creates the need for awareness and adaptation. Even if that RNG is merely in the form of whether or not you got an extra cp or not, whether or not Relentless Strikes proc'd, or whether you got an energy gain proc at a given moment or not. These are all little nuances that we need to watch and take into account just as EVERY OTHER CLASS must do.
Also, your complaint about auto-attacks being a large portion of our damage carries little weight for me for 2 big reasons. First is that auto-attacks are a large chunk of all melee classes dps. It's typically always in the top 3 or 4 damage sources, so we're not really *that* far off from everyone else. Second, you (just like everyone else that complains about this) are exaggerating the power of our auto-attacks. Sure auto-attacks and poisons may make up a large chunk of our damage, but they are by no means all of our damage. It's not like we can just /afk and auto-attack to the tops of the charts and we are by no means anywhere close to that being a possibility. Because even if auto-attacks and poisons comprised 50% of our damage that would still mean that the other 50% of our damage is coming from active sources. And that doesn't even factor in the active parts of our rotation that amplify the passive sources. Complaining that auto-attacks and poisons are too much of our damage and that that makes us boring is like complaining that dots are too much of an affl lock's damage and dots are boring, because it's basically the same thing: damage that happens on its own that we just need to maintain/support with other aspects of our rotation.
Overall, you keep complaining about things that have been a part of the class for YEARS, and pointing to them as the reasons for problems that you're seeing now, and claiming that by changing or removing them would somehow magically solve these problems that they obviously did not create.
Spam combo making skill (sinister strike, hemo, mut) keep up rupture and snd, and hit with a finisher (evis, enven)
Of course keeping up rupture used to be gear specific and refreshing snd is removed totally in one specs rotation.
Spec diversity is needed, not for balance, but what the point of 3 specs if they all feel the same?
In my opinion the following design basics could let players select a designed based on their play style.
Subtlety: High Damage Opener, Low Damage/Utility, Utility/Escape Finishers(CD Resets, etc)
Assassination: Utility Opener(stun, silence, etc), Moderate Damage (Poison Damage), High Damage Finisher
Combat: Preperation Openers (based on situation), high Sustained Damage, Utility Finishers (CD Resets, etc)
I'd like to add that I assumed pvp balance wasn't based on 1V1 and combat tends to be more of a pve spec. Kinda like the old days.
Your touching on the issue.
If they changed rogues so that our combo point abilities didn't require energy, we'd be monks.
Different looks, different animations, but still, at the base we'd be monks with 1 more or fewer chi.
As I've said before, monks got all our good stuff. We haven't even gotten blizzard to make combo points stick on the rogue yet (you think relentless strikes is a convoluted fix? What about giving us an ability we need to click with a 1 minute cooldown, and then forcing us to waste our 90 talent point if we wanted it to have no cooldown). I don't think we're going to get 0 energy finishers.
- CP on the player, not the mob
- High actions per minute. I've offset holy prism by some 30 seconds or so because there have been times where I never stop attacking.
- Yellow attacks actually do damage
- Procs clearcast a finisher, rather than 1/5th of a finisher
- Stuns that are resource free
While Blizzard seems to be proud of the energy system, they evidently consider rogues to be a proto-type and are unlikely to make any sweeping changes. When WoW is still going 5 years from now they will still be sustaining SnD and mashing SS.
10/05/2012 12:03 PMPosted by CloakeWhich is ironic considering mages and priests share the same basic resource
Ah yes, but so do all the mana classes. Mana is much less a resource, as it is a limiter for fight duration. I haven't actually seen a mana using class run out of mana anytime recently. Mana is there to punish the class for not doing the rotation right.
To be frank, I fell in love with the hunter resource system, which is ours without combo points, but the thing was whenever they were low on focus they had an ability that did damage to get it back. The feeling of always using an ability is something I enjoy. Even when out of resource, I was actively earning more back instead of waiting for more to form.
I don't know much about monks, but their system is similar to rogues right? Does their system use both resources for finishers?
Nope, Monk abilities consume singular resources.
While true, the abilities Monks use to generate Chi are not very damaging, while the strikes a Rogue uses to create combo points are core damage abilities. Monks need Chi to execute bread and butter damage abilities at all. It's not a very good direct comparison.
One should always be careful when comparing how one class's abilities work versus another to take into account all the variables.
Also: Hi guys. Don't tell anyone I'm here. You're Rogues, you can keep a secret, right?
Obviously you're not going to start with the over-arching point of my post, you know the one where you keep pointing at long-standing aspects of the class and claim that they're the cause for issues that weren't around until less than 2 weeks ago. Obviously that's not the place to start, probably best off not addressing that at all.
2 things: First, if you're hitting a finisher twice like that then that is not a problem with the class, it's abilities or it's design; it's a problem with YOU. You literally just complained that screwing up the rotation is bad. It's like complaining that if you accidentally hit Obliterate when you don't have diseases on your target that you get punished twice, because your obliterate did less damage and you lost out on disease ticks. Second, Aniticpation makes getting 5 cps straight forward regardless of spec, you are not dependent on getting a dispatch or seal fate proc in order to get 5cps, you have a buffer allowing you to always use 5cp envenoms.
You also avoiding that little part about how removing Relentless Strikes along with making finishers not cost energy would cancel eachother out and do nothing to fix the energy problem. Good job.
We were not only strong at the end of the expansion, we were strong for most of the expansion. And most of our problems were either problems that all melee had in general, or were addressed by specific changes to specs/abilities. But it still remains that you are pointing at new problems and blaming old aspects of the class, which makes absolutely no sense. Maybe you should take a step back and see if I have at any time stated that any of these changes you or others have suggested should or should not be done, because I haven't said anything of the sort. My issue with this topic is that you are using faulty premises to try to validate your views on how the class or specs should be changed as if your suggestions will magically solve these problems, when they're not what caused the problems.
If an aspect of the class or spec pre-dates the problem you're having (by several years) then that aspect of the class/spec is NOT the reason for the problem, which is what you're claiming it is.
RNG also should not factor in to a class's ability to perform damage, it should only apply to the damage incurred, Dealt and various ability procs. Under no circumstance should a random proc determine whether you can use your main abilities on a predictable and controllable basis...This statement doesn't even make sense. You say that RNG should not affect our performance, but then you state that it should affect the things that make up our performance.
The only thing I can imagine that you could possibly be trying to say here is that RNG should only affect entirely passive things. To which I have 2 responses: First of all you complained about poison procs being RNG before, so...make up your mind. Second is that that's just plain dumb. If rng only affected passive aspects of the class then there might as well be no rng at all because it means we have nothing to respond or react to, our entire rotation could just be put into a /castsequence macro and spammed to our hearts' content because in YOUR OWN WORDS rng will never interfere with using our abilities in a predictable and controlled basis.
RNG affecting the use of abilities or the generation of resources are necessary because they are what creates diversity in the form of individual skill and performance. Our ability to react properly and quickly enough to these forms of RNG is what determines how well we are playing. If you take that RNG away then there is no difference in performance between individual players. And EVERY class has this, including your coveted DK class.
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