Why we are energy starved.

(Locked)

I AM DOING ARENAS ATM. AND IT FRUSTRATES HOW I CANT DO ANYT FREAKING DAMAGE, WHILE A FROST DK CAN ALMOST 1V2 ME AND MY FRIEND, HIT ME FOR HALF MY HP WITH 1 HIT. WHERE IS THE GOD DAMN BALANCE AND GETTING REALLY PISSED NOW. ILL QUIT THE GAME IF WE DONT GET A BUFF IN 1 MONTH.
90 Goblin Rogue
8455
10/09/2012 02:09 PMPosted by Ørøø
I AM DOING ARENAS ATM. AND IT FRUSTRATES HOW I CANT DO ANYT FREAKING DAMAGE, WHILE A FROST DK CAN ALMOST 1V2 ME AND MY FRIEND, HIT ME FOR HALF MY HP WITH 1 HIT. WHERE IS THE GOD DAMN BALANCE AND GETTING REALLY PISSED NOW. ILL QUIT THE GAME IF WE DONT GET A BUFF IN 1 MONTH.

I think your caps lock is stuck.
35 Draenei Priest
2125
10/09/2012 02:09 PMPosted by Ørøø
I AM DOING ARENAS ATM. AND IT FRUSTRATES HOW I CANT DO ANYT FREAKING DAMAGE, WHILE A FROST DK CAN ALMOST 1V2 ME AND MY FRIEND, HIT ME FOR HALF MY HP WITH 1 HIT. WHERE IS THE GOD DAMN BALANCE AND GETTING REALLY PISSED NOW. ILL QUIT THE GAME IF WE DONT GET A BUFF IN 1 MONTH.

CAPS LOCK IS MY GIG. STOP IT RIGHT NOW BEFORE I GET OUT MY HAMMER.
100 Blood Elf Rogue
9750
My stance on redirect was more from a pvp perspective. I am not an avid pvp player, but the game balances pve with pvp in mind.

I use redirect in raid setting when I have to do a hard switch to a target and get it down ASAP. The same idea applies for pvp, when I need to hard switch to get a kill in redirect is my most valuable tool. The strat is basically what and when to make that hard switch in either pvp or pve. I like the complexity, I like to manage everything. I know most ppl do not feel the same as they want it to be easier to manage. I understand where anyone who feels this way is coming from, but thats just how I feel.

If they were to change it I would not complain. Easier is always better and less stressful no matter what the situation lol.

Also, are we discussing more than just being energy starved? I keep going back and reading posts on just about everything else mixed in with all this. I know I am fashionably late to this thread, but i still want to voice my opinion, etc... and I don't want to throw this off topic.
90 Gnome Rogue
16605
Yah... I think our biggest problem right now is definitely energy regen.
Edited by Fatrob on 10/9/2012 2:54 PM PDT
100 Undead Rogue
17400
the biggest thing I've noticed while leveling and doing dailies on my Rogue is the fact that it takes forever to kill stuff - mainly b/c yes, half the time, I'm out of energy. I'm sure even if I get my gear stats all converted, at the end of the day, it won't make a difference.

It wasn't this bad in Cataclysm or any past expansion, so I'm not sure what has changed.

I also noticed times when I was leveling from 85 to 90 and it'd say I didn't have any energy when I clearly did. I wonder if there is just some hidden overall bug with the energy resource itself or what...
Edited by Vicious on 10/9/2012 3:08 PM PDT
100 Dwarf Rogue
19725
Without commenting on whether or not we are actually energy starved, I just want to say that if I had to choose between being energy starved or being gcd capped, I'd pick being energy starved every time. If ever energy becomes "overtuned" as it has been in the past, and we end up gcd capped, we suddenly have our dps governed by things like latency, and we lose some of our more interesting dps tactics like energy/cp pooling/depleting. Being truly energy starved, while potentially "boring", at least doesn't come with any of these, in my opinion, unacceptable side-effects.

So that said, I don't actually feel like we're energy starved at all, and I've played all three specs. The anecdotes that complain about waiting 6 seconds for enough energy to use an ability are obvious exaggerations. It's true that during slower points you may have to wait between 2 and 3 seconds to use an ability, but that is generally the exception and seems reasonable to me.

In general, I think the reason people are complaining about being energy starved is not because they're actually starved for energy, but rather because the damage they're doing is decidedly sub par when compared to other classes. This is especially true at iLvl 476 and below. Psychologically, I believe it plays out like this: people will see themselves on meters and see that they are (somteims far) behind other classes. In that same moment, they will notice that although they are off the gcd, they do not have enough energy to do anything (to catch up on dps) and so they'll jump to the conclusion that rogues are energy starved.

In summary, I'd prefer energy regeneration to stay exactly where it is, but I'd like to see our damage buffed *especially* at lower (463 specifically) gear levels.
100 Night Elf Rogue
8875
10/09/2012 02:13 PMPosted by Backstabi
I AM DOING ARENAS ATM. AND IT FRUSTRATES HOW I CANT DO ANYT FREAKING DAMAGE, WHILE A FROST DK CAN ALMOST 1V2 ME AND MY FRIEND, HIT ME FOR HALF MY HP WITH 1 HIT. WHERE IS THE GOD DAMN BALANCE AND GETTING REALLY PISSED NOW. ILL QUIT THE GAME IF WE DONT GET A BUFF IN 1 MONTH.

I think your caps lock is stuck.


his caps lock was stun locked!

Ba-dum-dish!
85 Human Warlock
8700
it is not fun on AOE dungeon pulls to have virtually no AOE, FOK/CT are for like 20 adds, not 5. Having classes literally double your dps on these pulls is ridiculous. Should every pve rogue play combat just to have some type of cleave?

passive damage is such a majority of our damage that you can almost just position your character appropriately and do similar damage w/o even using primary moves.

For w/e reason rogues now seem like the squishiest class by far.

Cloak of Shadows is still not immune to censure, and now several heroic dungeon magic abilities.

shiv w/ deadly brew 4 piece should apply 70% cripp slow as well as current non-fatal poison.
Edited by Dizyzz on 10/9/2012 4:12 PM PDT
I use redirect in raid setting when I have to do a hard switch to a target and get it down ASAP. The same idea applies for pvp, when I need to hard switch to get a kill in redirect is my most valuable tool. The strat is basically what and when to make that hard switch in either pvp or pve


Oh, I understand now, since it was explained to me. The problem is that in a huge amount of the content in this game, proper use of redirect (or even using it at all, frankly) makes so little difference to your overall output as to be irrelevant. If you're not doing progression raiding, you can just about ignore redirect for all the difference it makes.

Part of this is down to how weak our finishers are.

I like the complexity, I like to manage everything. I know most ppl do not feel the same as they want it to be easier to manage.


It's not even a question of easier, really. I don't mind complexity as a general rule. I wouldn't mind seeing rogues get some greater complexity. It's that there's good and bad complexity. Keeping combo points on our targets just feels awkward at a very fundamental level, and as I've said, what little complexity it does offer is largely irrelevant in most types of content.

Take trash. Trash is never a big enough threat for proper use of redirect to really make a meaningful difference, yet it's a situation where redirect offers the most annoyance. I lose so many combo points as trash dies it's not even funny.

And, of course, anticipation and versatility both negate pretty much all the complexity of keeping combo points on the target, so it's pretty much just a quality of life issue at this point.

Also, are we discussing more than just being energy starved? I keep going back and reading posts on just about everything else mixed in with all this. I know I am fashionably late to this thread, but i still want to voice my opinion, etc... and I don't want to throw this off topic.


The impression I got from the blue posts is that they're now using this as a general rogue feedback thread.

10/09/2012 03:03 PMPosted by Vicious
It wasn't this bad in Cataclysm or any past expansion, so I'm not sure what has changed.


IDK about the other specs, but they nerfed combat's energy regen passive. Which angers me no end. Nerf my damage; I don't care about that. But do not nerf my energy. That's just nerfing fun.

Without commenting on whether or not we are actually energy starved, I just want to say that if I had to choose between being energy starved or being gcd capped, I'd pick being energy starved every time. If ever energy becomes "overtuned" as it has been in the past, and we end up gcd capped, we suddenly have our dps governed by things like latency, and we lose some of our more interesting dps tactics like energy/cp pooling/depleting. Being truly energy starved, while potentially "boring", at least doesn't come with any of these, in my opinion, unacceptable side-effects.


Yeah, this is pretty much the exact opposite of how I feel.
Edited by Maigraith on 10/9/2012 4:28 PM PDT
90 Gnome Rogue
3390
You really want to know why we're "sad"? Because the dev team chose to nerf us so hard that we will go out of style.

All these issues were mentioned repeatedly in the beta Forums.

You Know what the issues are.

Stop pretending like you care just to placate us.
Edited by Eggsactly on 10/9/2012 6:04 PM PDT
90 Human Rogue
5260
Why isnt this a sticky?? Oh yeah bc blizz doesnt care about rogues anymore. Gotchaa. -_-
100 Human Rogue
11300
Im sure all of this has been said a million times throughout this post but id love to get it off my chest. For starters our damage is way to passive. It makes rogue boring and its extremely detrimental to our damage in PVP given our poor mobility.

Our damage is so passive that is a huge DPS loss if we can stay on our targets 100% of the time. Much more so than say a ret, warrior, or feral who can either burst once they finally get to their target or already have damage ticking away. Id love to see SnD nerfed so that its a slight DPS buff to keep it up but not all our specs play around it (except maybe combat) and have our damage shifted into yellow attacks. Pressing buttons is always way more fun than sitting there just waiting for energy to regen while you do 70% of your damage passively.

Which brings me to our mobility. Prep should not be on our mobility tier at all. I understand what they were trying to do because sub was so strong last season but this was not the way at all. Id honestly love to see shadow step baseline and have a whole tier devoted to mobility. Its really disheartening to be a squishy melee that cant survive or get a kill because its almost impossible to get away or stay on your target after your cloak or vanish is on CD.

I feel like rogues are also way to cooldown reliant now. Its beginning to feel like wrath all over again except the damage just doesn't seem to be there. Sure we have amazing burst but it drops down hard after that point. Me and my rogue buddy were half way joking saying that if we cant kill someone in a dance or shortly after we lose because of every other classes tools that they got our expac. Honestly it feels like rogues took a step back going into this expac while every other class took a leap forward.

Which brings me to another point. Our talent trees. I've been called bias for this but I really feel like rogue talent trees are about the most boring talent trees that were made in MoP. Most of our tree is sub gutted and layed out across the tiers. People want new toys to play with. Not a bunch of recycled abilities that we've already had before. Last expac we got smokebomb which was awesome, but we also got the very lack luster redirect which honestly feels like a bandaid fix for whats wrong with combo points.

This expac blizz went in the right direction and gave us shadowblades (which I love - just wish it had a better animation) but dropped the ball when it came to our level 90 tier which all feels like it would be baseline abilities while other classes got huge damage CDs and awesome utility spells. We get an instant throw that procs poisons which we kinda had already. Redirect gets no CD which again is a bandaid fix that I feel should be baked into our class and anticipation which bugs and doesnt even work off SnD and Recup.

I feel like rogues havent gotten any love in the past two expacs and I dont want to have to wait 3 more patches again until we are in a good place. I love playing my rogue but its really starting to feel dull.
90 Night Elf Druid
10070
One thing that bothers me is how boring the level 90 talents are, rogue 90 talents are the MOST boring out of every single class in the game.

PVP wise it feels like Rogue has to juggle too many cooldowns, I would prefer that you get the dmg buff from hemo bleed buff being on the target in addition to garrote/rupture.

Also atm there is no incentive to use recuperate, the heal is garbage and there are better glyphs in pvp so glyphing it isnt really the best option
90 Human Rogue
7605
This thread is one huge repeat of every thing we have been saying since we all discovered what was going to happen to rogues before it ever went to Beta.. Every one is saying the same thing, what rogues we have left.. are unanomously speaking the same concepts. I find this amazing... as if we all had a big conference, instructing us to protest Blizzard about rogues. The fact of the matter is when the entire rogue population (the ones who didnt quit) completely fall of the face of the world in terms of pvp viability and pve dps because of what you did to the class with a new expansion... I think there is a problem. How did this all go wrong you might say? All you have to do is read the patch notes, you guys (dev team) have all the class change information you need. You know what you did to the rogues, you are the ones who did it! Gut our damage/survival ability and make our control inferior but giving other classes better control and cc removers. Then ask what is wrong? I feel as though blizzard is laughing while saying "you mad brogue?....
90 Undead Rogue
17510
What works well for my Rogue in Mists...

I like shadow blades and anticipation but sadly that is about it.

All the talent choices seem bland/unexciting/rehashed abilities.

Shadow blades is almost mandatory to be macroed with our spec cool-downs, so in the end it doesn't become that unique of a new cool move that we rogues got in MoP.

I've never had so little fun going around killing stuff in all my time in WoW.

I just spend way way way to much time waiting for CDs, Energy, to keep me entertained in all specs of the "new and improved" Rogue class for Mists of Pandaria.
90 Blood Elf Rogue
8425
fix energy regen/take off energy for our CP finishers and buff them. kthnx
100 Blood Elf Rogue
5720
We would like to know:
Why is shadowstep not a baseline ability?
Why plate classes have far better mobility than the most agile class in the game?

In my humble opinion
1. Preparation needs to go, just lower the general CDs we have.
2. Make SS a baseline ability or allow the rogue to use it while snared, like it was on BC.
3. There should be some glyph to move the energy regen from slice and dice back to recuperate, for PvP purposes.
4. Again, we have so many and very long CDs. We know CDs are the "flavor" of the class, but please, take our feed back in consideration. CDs are way too long.
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