Why we are energy starved.

(Locked)

85 Night Elf Rogue
6585
With my rogue still being 85 I cannot contribute much however I would like to state combats restless blades needs to be reworked, rather than reducing the CD on my abilities by X amount per combo point spent on an OFFENSIVE spell, it should reduce the CD for every combo point spent on any finisher, I more than often find myself using them on a recup/kidney/S&D shot trying to stay alive.

Killing Spree is a great ability, and Sprint + Adrenaline Rush are key for Combat PvP, its very difficult to get much done in the spec without them, and upping Killing Sprees CD to 2 min from 45 sec while removing arpen from maces destroyed the spec, fixing restless blades would put the spec in a much more desirable spot.
Edited by Nylain on 10/11/2012 7:35 AM PDT
10/11/2012 03:41 AMPosted by Madcapmcgee
No, there was plenty of QQ about energy capping, and it lasted months upon months upon months.


I've had it explained to me several times, and I still don't understand what the problem with energy-capping is. It doesn't negatively impact our DPS. If you need to throw out some utility, throw out some utility. If it's important, then the brief loss of DPS is warranted. Actually, since pretty much all of our utility costs energy, it's probably easier to toss out some utility when GCD-capped by high energy than not.

And anyway, if you don't like high energy, play assas. This is what we have different specs for.

GCD-capping is a player problem, not a class problem. It doesn't hurt anyone in any meaningful way. Really, is there anyone out there who honestly enjoys just staring at their character auto-attacking because they've got nothing else to do?

If that's the future of this class, I'm done with rogues.

And besides, what is the point of being a combat rogue in PvE if you're not blisteringly fast? Stealth doesn't ever see significant use in PvE. CC is generally only used for trash, with a handful of exceptions, and most other classes have better CC than rogues (at least for PvE) at this point. Combat doesn't have good burst outside of CDs. So really, what good is a slow combat rogue? What's fun? What's our purpose? What's our defining trait?

/rant

You're ignoring the main things we wanted (combo points on us vs on enemies, better regen (less scaling problems both on the top and bottom end), more active rotations, less passive damage) and focusing instead on the problems WW's have that are completely unrelated to anything of relevance here. Monks were given a lot of what Rogues have been asking for in terms of core design.

Monks getting kited in PvP has absolutely zero to do with anything in this thread. We get kited worse, who cares? That's a snare vs escape issue that MANY melee suffer from and it's compounded by the CD on healer dispels. It's not a core class design issue like energy regen, combo points, and passive damage are for us Rogues.


This. No one's saying that monks are perfect. What we are saying is that if you look at the list of what rogues have asked for over the years, monks have gotten pretty much all of it and rogues have gotten almost none of it.
Edited by Maigraith on 10/11/2012 7:45 AM PDT
90 Orc Rogue
10185
I see a lot of people saying they want more active damage, and for less damage to come from poisons.

Personally, I love assassination as it is, and I rather enjoy being a DoT based melee class with stuns and disorients. I do feel rather weak in PvE compared to warriors, and weak in PvP to mages, but that's likely something that will get better with gear.

Just my two cents, I guess.
90 Troll Rogue
10140
@SamSykesSwears

wow.joystiq.com/2012/10/10/;enc... Pretty good article on where rogue rotations fail. Worth checking out, maybe?


@Ghostcrawler

We like the rogue rotation. We wanted monks to feel different and they do.


I think any hopes for any real changes is probably pretty faint.
90 Human Rogue
9820
Ok, I know I'm not lvl 90 yet, but that's mostly because I took a break at the start of the expansion, being frustrated with my class. And I ofc could spend the next several hours reading this thread and others like it, but that would be boring and I'd just like to put my two cents in.

I was sub PvE and PvP in 4.3. I'm no gladiator and no super high end serious raider, but I would like to still think I have a relatively strong grasp on the mechanics and play style of my class. With that said, I'll get to the point:

Why we are energy starved, very simply explained, is because we are pigeon holed into assassination. Why rogues feel less roguish than before is because we are pigeon holed into assassination. Why rogues' damage feels more passive is because we are pigeon holed into assassination.

Mut play style is very boring to me. It revolves around a resource expensive main combo point generator, followed by a weak damaging, but passive buff finisher. The damage in Envenom is not in the ability but the envenom buff one receives after using the ability. The major cooldown of the spec is not rotation altering or even an increase in the rotation allowing more use of abilities while it is up. It is simply a flat damage increase on target while applied. Vanish was taken away as a viable DPS cooldown with the removal of Overkill from the spec (even if it still has a much diminished DPS use if for nothing else giving one a free mutilate if specced into Shadow Focus). By far, the majority of damage from Assassination comes from passive sources via Slice and Dice and the Envenom buff and a long flat damage increasing cooldown. Shadow Blades goes along the same lines with a passive auto attack damage increase, with the exception of giving us an extra CP on CP generators, but doesn't affect the play style greatly while active, either. And again, a long cooldown.

IMHO, Passivity a boring rogue makes.

Sub PvE 4.3 was fun. It had a complicated rotation, requiring the rogue to maintain SnD for the ever present passive damage increase, but we also had to maintain Recuperate for the energy return, as well as working in at least one Eviscerate every 15 seconds to keep Rupture rolling. Shadow Dance GREATLY changed the rotation for it's duration, as well as providing a signature debuff for the spec on a short cooldown. Weaving ShS into Ambushes increased the skill cap to min/max one's dps, as well as making Vanish and Preparation very useful DPS cooldowns.

Now it's all gone. Recup's energy regen is baked into SnD, Prep and ShS are no longer signatures of the spec, and Sub is now the only spec with a positional requirement (even Mut's execute phase uses Dispatch now, as opposed to Backstab, which has no positional requirement) without any bonuses for purposefully gimping oneself by choosing it, especially with the new expansion and subsequently low ilvl gear and crit rates.

I will try Combat when I finish lvling, but in the past, Combat is almost as boring as Mut, spamming SS, Evis on 5 CPs, maintain SnD... AR and KS. Not very entertaining either.

Anyway, this is just my thoughts. Sorry if they've already been raised repeatedly in this thread, it's just gotten too long to read through.
@Ghostcrawler

We like the rogue rotation. We wanted monks to feel different and they do.


Oh my god, this quote makes me angry.

Monks don't feel different. They feel like my rogue used to feel, and the only differences are quality of life tweaks rogues should have gotten expansions ago. Monks feel like rogues are supposed to feel.

I guess this confirms my belief that rogues got neutered and will stay that way so that monks can have their own niche.

Man, I wish I didn't get so attached to characters. I could abandon this toon and just focus on my monk and/or paladin, because clearly that's the only way I'm going to feel like a rogue.
Edited by Maigraith on 10/11/2012 8:20 AM PDT
94 Undead Rogue
10475
I agree with the above poster than Monks are the new rogues... they come into our dungeons in hordes, sometimes 3 Monks in a single group, stealing a vast majority of our gear, doing superior damage...

I started doing heroics with another person in my guild and.. well, I thought as my ilvl went up my damage would catch up to his and it did increase for sure... but his damage continued to scale as well. How the hell are rogues supposed to keep up when they're put behind from the start?

I dunno.. I wanna see some patch notes or something... about to xfer my druid and start playing her. Now I realize why I'm quite frequently the only high level rogue in whatever guild I happen to be in...
100 Blood Elf Rogue
17750
@Ghostcrawler

We like the rogue rotation. We wanted monks to feel different and they do.


Erm. We don't? >.>
90 Goblin Rogue
12515
I feel that the only reason im able to get heroics done is because of my group of friends when we do achieve runs. I am almost always 3rd on dps behind the very op ele sham right now and the druid tank. Granted aoe has alot to do with that. Still rogue dps is worse then i have seen it in a long time.

After all the talks about changes and fixes and getting nothing. Alot like blizz not wanting to force people to do dailies or grind rep....but thats another monster topic of stupidity.

Ive played a rogue since UBRS was big news. I have never felt so blatently bored playing then i do right now. There is waaaay too much downtime even while in the middle of a fight. I am combat spec currently. I feel im sitting just wathcing auto attacks and every 3-4 seconds i have enough energy to SS and then the watching starts over. Then if you ever get a few mobs and use BF then you basically cant do anything but auto attacks unless you blow your AR and SB as well.

I have put up with that lackluster changes on rogues through all the xpacs but this one is just horrible. one thing i have always hated is the fact that we do use energy AND combo points for finishers that do such minimal damage in our totals that why even bother with them? If its not SnD or a rupture it takes so much time to ramp up 4-5 more points that Evis just isnt a priority at all. Sure when u blow AR and SB you can have combo points all you want for 12 seconds. but then its back to auto attack and a few ss for 3 mins. In a 10-15 minute fight 4-5 windows of real dps time is pathetic compared to so many classes that just do solid dps with very high damage bursts. Doing mediocre dps with decent bursts is just not good enough.
90 Orc Death Knight
12980
There's nothing wrong with rogues in PvE at all... the are in a fantastic spot DPS wise. One combat rogue was ripping 80-90k single target in LFR, and outside of warrior/rets, I am rarely behind any class. AoE 5+ more target they are way at the bottom yes, mass AOE is even more horrible, hunter pulls 200k+ I am lucky to break 120k.
90 Night Elf Rogue
14375
Ghostcrawler sounds more and more like a Public Relations twit than a developer each time I read anything he says or writes...

Just saiyan.
90 Blood Elf Rogue
7900
Well i honestly think wer suffering Warrior syndrome from previous expansions, where we are really gear dependant to shine. As i have geared up, my dps and performance in Pvp, has greatly increased for good.

Sorry for bad english.
90 Night Elf Rogue
6790
@Ghostcrawler

We like the rogue rotation. We wanted monks to feel different and they do.

Well I guess it's time to go power level a monk.
90 Human Rogue
11255
Hi, I'm Luna. I raid with Refined, currently ranked #14 worldwide for 25 man raiding. In previous tiers I have held multiple rank 1, top ten, and 95th percentile rankings throughout the world for rogues in multiple encounters. I feel like I can give a good overview on general class problems and then spec specific problems for my two specs, Assassination and Combat.

General class overview:

1. First and foremost, our single target damage across the board is low. At our best we are mid pack, at our worst we are barely above the non-vengeance tank. This is the single biggest problem with the class, everything else is minor in relation to simply being a viable class to bring to a raid. I believe that right now I am a liability to my raid because I am not able to compete with half of the other classes. I have had the thought before that, if I was my raid leader, I would be benching both myself and the other rogue who is part of our raiding core for just about any other class.

----------

2. I feel like Blade Flurry should be a rogue ability for all specs, and not just limited to Combat. The ability cannot be balanced to be equal to the other two specs because it is so powerful; if you are a competitive raider and there is a cleave opportunity, you will ALWAYS be forced to spec Combat. Maybe it would require a rebalancing of some sort for the entire class, but if there is ever to truly be a choice in what spec we play for raiding Blade Flurry must be a class wide ability or be removed.

It really sucks that right now, I want to try PVPing are sub more often but I can't because I need to keep a Combat spec for a couple bosses in this tier and for doing dailies. Combat doesn't suffer from energy regeneration problems right now as much as Assassination does, so its ability to mow down similarly levelled mobs with Blade Flurry and cooldowns make it far superior to both other specs for general PVE and dungeons.

----------

3. Energy regeneration for Sub and Assassination are not good, and it actually makes me feel frustrated to play the specs when I am literally waiting 5 seconds between attacks. I have more experience with Assassination than Sub currently, and I am sure that the developer team is aware that Assassination is regarded as the highest single target DPS spec right now. I am not sure that they are aware of how long we're waiting between combo builders and finishers as Assassination. It doesn't feel like the finishers are exciting enough in terms of damage or buildup; having to wait too long between reaching 5 combo points and using Envenom doesn't feel rewarding, it feels like an intermediary step between building combo points again.

----------

4. I don't feel like there is enough difference between the specs in terms of playstyle. All of the specs play the exact same, where we use a generic combo point builder, get to 5 combo points, and use a finisher that either stuns or does damage.

I realize that there is a similiarity in how each damage spec plays for each class, but it is obvious when you watch a mage what spec he is playing. They apply their damage and control in different ways and that's what makes the class so versatile and different depending on what spec you're playing. If you watch a rogue in PVE or PVP he is doing the exact same thing no matter what spec he is, because our class abilities which generate combo points literally have no other effect than to lead to finishers.

Mutilate, Dispatch, Sinister Strike, Hemo and Backstab are literally interchangeable. I feel that the ONLY difference in the way that the specs play differently and deal damage are as follows:

Assassination: Slow ramp up, must use 2 finishers to start dealing noticable damage.
Combat: Can cleave.
Subtlety: Must be behind the target to use your best combo point builder.

Outside of those three very subtle differences in playstyle, a rogue can literally do the exact same thing as any spec and there will be no difference in the way that your gameplay is altered.

----------

5. Our talent tree choices are not fun. When I play my alt Paladin, DK, Priest or Mage, I look at their talent trees and feel like the talent overhaul has added options and gameplay to each talent tier.

When I look at my rogues talents, I see a choice between two or three options that I innately had before. I feel like the talent overhaul for rogues is a complete failure because it did not add significant gameplay differences (outside of Prep/Step) depending on what choice you had made for each talent, it literally took away your previous choices and made you choose between them. We did not get any viable new or fun abilities or functionality out of the overhaul other than Anticipation.

Shuriken Toss is not a good talent, I honestly do not see myself ever taking it because our ranged damage with it is still so lackluster that it can't make up for the fact that we are not able to use our main damage dealing or utility abilities to our target.

Versatility seems like a band aid to the rogue class. It does not feel worthy of a level 90 talent to me at all, especially in the face of Anticipation which completely changes the way multiple specs operate. I know the developers have said that they believe that the combo point transfer limitations are a part of the "spice" of playing a rogue, but none of my other characters have their resources drained for switching targets. I wholeheartedly believe that this talent should be baseline for the class.

------------------------------------------------

Assassination:

1. The energy regeneration for the spec right now is terrible. It's always been slow at the start of expansions, but it is especially bad right now. Waiting so long between using attacks is not fun.

----------

2. Auto attack damage and poison damage is making up too large of a total percentage of our damage. On our kill of Fend the Accursed, which is very close to a Patchwerk fight, auto attacks and poisons alone did about 60% of my total damage by themselves. There is timing involved in using finishers and that adds a layer of complexity and a way to differentiate between player skills, but there isn't much difference between a good, great or amazing Assassination rogue when only 40% of your damage can be changed by a player's involvement at all.

----------

3. Due to the above, Mastery will remain far and away the best secondary stat for Assassination as long as so much of our damage comes from automatically applied damage. Haste and crit will never begin to approach the power of Mastery for this spec, and moreso than before, future gearing in raids will revolve around which pieces have Mastery innately and which do not. Pieces without Mastery will not be viable for the spec and we may be forced to use older gear.

------------------------------------------------

Combat:

1. The biggest complaint I have about Combat is that its single target damage in raiding scenarios is not up to par. If not for the existence of Blade Flurry, the damage would be so subpar compared to Assassination and Subtlety that we would not spec it at all for raids.

----------

2. The spec is way, way too dependant on cooldowns. Someone in this thread put it so succinctly earlier that I have to repeat; it feels amazing when all of your cooldowns are up, but it sucks to know your damage is horrid as you're waiting for your cooldowns to run down.

----------

3. All that said, in general PVE, whether it be questing, grinding, or doing dungeons, the playstyle of the spec feels good. Energy regeneration is a tad low, especially when Blade Flurry is up, but in general the spec is good at delivering quick damage to multiple targets and has two cooldowns which work well. I say two cooldowns, because Adrenaline Rush and Shadow Blades are macroed together to do good burst damage. Killing Spree is the other.

------------------------------------------------

PVP:

I am a big proponent of random and rated battlegrounds. I have well over 100,000 honorable kills earned on my rogue alone, Battlemaster, Conqueror, 2200 RBG rating. I love doing battleground PVP and that is the focus of my PVP experience.

My experience of level 90 PVP in battlegrounds and duels can be summed up as: outmanuevered, outdamaged, outlasted.

1. Every single class has much more mobility than rogues right now. Our mobility without Shadowstep is horrible. Burst of Speed costs too much energy to be usable. Even with Shadowstep, the lack of Preparation for double Vanish or double Sprint makes us extremely vulnerable to roots and snares. Many classes can literally run circles around us.

2. I don't feel like we do enough damage, our yellow attacks as Assassination and especially Subtlety do not hit hard enough for the amount of resource that we are using. I am having an extremely hard time killing almost anything, and when I do not crit on my yellow attacks I do not feel like my abilities are doing anything at all.

3.When I am PVPing against several different classes, I feel like they are doing way too much damage in relation to how much damage I can do back to them. Having Preparation definitely helps, but it still leads to two problems. The first being the disparity between our survivability when our cooldowns are up and when they are not, and the second being a complete lack of mobility in all cases. If we are specced into Preparation we must use our valuable defensive cooldowns, Preparation, Vanish, Cloak of Shadows and Sprint to actually catch many classes; and the net effect is that if we catch them it is only for a few seconds, and our defensive cooldowns are not usable because we have already applied many or most of them just to catch up to the target in the first place.

In summary I feel like the problem with rogue PVP, aside from general damage which can be fixed, is the seperation of Prep and Step. The two synergized really well where we could get to our targets, have a good uptime, and have enough cooldowns to be able to have a competitive chance to play well against them.

The opposite is the reality now, without both abilities there is no synergy which allows us to do this. Either we are extremely vulnerable to roots and kiting without the ability to catch our opponents, using several cooldowns to attain low uptime or we are able to catch them but unable to fight competitively because of the differences in base damage and lack of cooldowns.

I don't understand why the developers have picked these two incredibly awesome talents to pit against each other as means of mobility; they are not the same type of talent. The core of Rogue PVP since 3.3 (and 2.4) has been about the synergy of these two talents together, and not just because they made us effective, but because they made us fun. We could catch our targets and compete with them in toe to toe combat. We could move around the battlefield very quickly! We could make a difference in our faction's objectives!

Without these two talents together our role in PVP was a stunbot, who burned every cooldown to try and kill someone with a couple of Envenoms. It makes me very sad that this is the role and playstyle that the Rogue is being relegated to, because without the combination of these two abilities Subtlety is no longer viable in PVP and we have no other option.

---------

Well it took me about 2 hours to write this. It was my intention to be concise and non biased, and give you guys the best feedback about the aspects of the class that I do and don't like as possible. Sorry for the long post, but if we really have your ears right now I have to give you everything I have. I love this class, and I really hope that you guys will take the feedback of myself and the many other long time, loyal rogues to heart.

If I could make a summary about how I've felt about rogues starting out in Mists of Pandaria, I think my response would be "meh." I don't feel like we have gained anything new or exciting that changes the way we play, and I feel like rogues have gotten more stale with the recent changes because all of our specs play nearly identically to each other. At least at the end of Cataclysm I could choose between playstyle differences when I changed specs; I could play a timing oriented spec; a fast, use every gcd possible spec; or play a spec where I simply tried to keep up as many finishers as possible.

I would like to ask any of players who have read my entire post to please Thumbs Up it if you agree with many or most of the points I have made here. If we can show Blizzard that we are in agreement about many of the issues we are having, maybe they will give those posts a second read.


Maybe if we post this enough times, they will read it...... AND LEARN SOMETHING.
90 Night Elf Rogue
16715
Would I be being blasphemous if I said I've never not enjoyed playing my rogue and I think you guys are being whiny little kids about silly, unnecessary things that monks got, oh and if you don't beat practically everyone on dps in heroic dungeons, roll combat and watch that change rather quickly.
90 Human Rogue
9230
10/11/2012 10:14 AMPosted by Secondtime
There's nothing wrong with rogues in PvE at all... the are in a fantastic spot DPS wise. One combat rogue was ripping 80-90k single target in LFR, and outside of warrior/rets, I am rarely behind any class. AoE 5+ more target they are way at the bottom yes, mass AOE is even more horrible, hunter pulls 200k+ I am lucky to break 120k.


Not even RaidBots is showing Combat Rogues ripping anywhere near what you claim to have seen. There is no way over the course of an entire fight that Combat is doing 90k single-target. Combat is in fact the lowest single-target dps Rogue spec. Killing Spree w/BF up in a cleave situation is the only time I've seen numbers in that neighborhood coming from Combat Rogues.
100 Dwarf Rogue
20835
10/11/2012 07:42 AMPosted by Maigraith
GCD-capping is a player problem, not a class problem.


If you're gcd capped and you don't spam your keys with a period that's less than your custom lag tolerance (or have some kind of autohotkey script that will), then you will end up wasting energy. I suppose some people will consider taking either of these measures to be "skillful" play, but I think either are an undesirable requirement and don't correlate with skill at all.
90 Human Rogue
9230
Hi, I'm Luna. I raid with Refined, currently ranked #14 worldwide for 25 man raiding. In previous tiers I have held multiple rank 1, top ten, and 95th percentile rankings throughout the world for rogues in multiple encounters. I feel like I can give a good overview on general class problems and then spec specific problems for my two specs, Assassination and Combat.

General class overview:

1. First and foremost, our single target damage across the board is low. At our best we are mid pack, at our worst we are barely above the non-vengeance tank. This is the single biggest problem with the class, everything else is minor in relation to simply being a viable class to bring to a raid. I believe that right now I am a liability to my raid because I am not able to compete with half of the other classes. I have had the thought before that, if I was my raid leader, I would be benching both myself and the other rogue who is part of our raiding core for just about any other class.

----------

2. I feel like Blade Flurry should be a rogue ability for all specs, and not just limited to Combat. The ability cannot be balanced to be equal to the other two specs because it is so powerful; if you are a competitive raider and there is a cleave opportunity, you will ALWAYS be forced to spec Combat. Maybe it would require a rebalancing of some sort for the entire class, but if there is ever to truly be a choice in what spec we play for raiding Blade Flurry must be a class wide ability or be removed.

It really sucks that right now, I want to try PVPing are sub more often but I can't because I need to keep a Combat spec for a couple bosses in this tier and for doing dailies. Combat doesn't suffer from energy regeneration problems right now as much as Assassination does, so its ability to mow down similarly levelled mobs with Blade Flurry and cooldowns make it far superior to both other specs for general PVE and dungeons.

----------

3. Energy regeneration for Sub and Assassination are not good, and it actually makes me feel frustrated to play the specs when I am literally waiting 5 seconds between attacks. I have more experience with Assassination than Sub currently, and I am sure that the developer team is aware that Assassination is regarded as the highest single target DPS spec right now. I am not sure that they are aware of how long we're waiting between combo builders and finishers as Assassination. It doesn't feel like the finishers are exciting enough in terms of damage or buildup; having to wait too long between reaching 5 combo points and using Envenom doesn't feel rewarding, it feels like an intermediary step between building combo points again.

----------

4. I don't feel like there is enough difference between the specs in terms of playstyle. All of the specs play the exact same, where we use a generic combo point builder, get to 5 combo points, and use a finisher that either stuns or does damage.

I realize that there is a similiarity in how each damage spec plays for each class, but it is obvious when you watch a mage what spec he is playing. They apply their damage and control in different ways and that's what makes the class so versatile and different depending on what spec you're playing. If you watch a rogue in PVE or PVP he is doing the exact same thing no matter what spec he is, because our class abilities which generate combo points literally have no other effect than to lead to finishers.

Mutilate, Dispatch, Sinister Strike, Hemo and Backstab are literally interchangeable. I feel that the ONLY difference in the way that the specs play differently and deal damage are as follows:

Assassination: Slow ramp up, must use 2 finishers to start dealing noticable damage.
Combat: Can cleave.
Subtlety: Must be behind the target to use your best combo point builder.


Outside of those three very subtle differences in playstyle, a rogue can literally do the exact same thing as any spec and there will be no difference in the way that your gameplay is altered.

----------

5. Our talent tree choices are not fun. When I play my alt Paladin, DK, Priest or Mage, I look at their talent trees and feel like the talent overhaul has added options and gameplay to each talent tier.

When I look at my rogues talents, I see a choice between two or three options that I innately had before. I feel like the talent overhaul for rogues is a complete failure because it did not add significant gameplay differences (outside of Prep/Step) depending on what choice you had made for each talent, it literally took away your previous choices and made you choose between them. We did not get any viable new or fun abilities or functionality out of the overhaul other than Anticipation.

Shuriken Toss is not a good talent, I honestly do not see myself ever taking it because our ranged damage with it is still so lackluster that it can't make up for the fact that we are not able to use our main damage dealing or utility abilities to our target.

Versatility seems like a band aid to the rogue class. It does not feel worthy of a level 90 talent to me at all, especially in the face of Anticipation which completely changes the way multiple specs operate. I know the developers have said that they believe that the combo point transfer limitations are a part of the "spice" of playing a rogue, but none of my other characters have their resources drained for switching targets. I wholeheartedly believe that this talent should be baseline for the class.

------------------------------------------------

Assassination:

1. The energy regeneration for the spec right now is terrible. It's always been slow at the start of expansions, but it is especially bad right now. Waiting so long between using attacks is not fun.

----------

2. Auto attack damage and poison damage is making up too large of a total percentage of our damage. On our kill of Fend the Accursed, which is very close to a Patchwerk fight, auto attacks and poisons alone did about 60% of my total damage by themselves. There is timing involved in using finishers and that adds a layer of complexity and a way to differentiate between player skills, but there isn't much difference between a good, great or amazing Assassination rogue when only 40% of your damage can be changed by a player's involvement at all.

----------

3. Due to the above, Mastery will remain far and away the best secondary stat for Assassination as long as so much of our damage comes from automatically applied damage. Haste and crit will never begin to approach the power of Mastery for this spec, and moreso than before, future gearing in raids will revolve around which pieces have Mastery innately and which do not. Pieces without Mastery will not be viable for the spec and we may be forced to use older gear.

------------------------------------------------

Combat:

1. The biggest complaint I have about Combat is that its single target damage in raiding scenarios is not up to par. If not for the existence of Blade Flurry, the damage would be so subpar compared to Assassination and Subtlety that we would not spec it at all for raids.

----------

2. The spec is way, way too dependant on cooldowns. Someone in this thread put it so succinctly earlier that I have to repeat; it feels amazing when all of your cooldowns are up, but it sucks to know your damage is horrid as you're waiting for your cooldowns to run down.

----------

3. All that said, in general PVE, whether it be questing, grinding, or doing dungeons, the playstyle of the spec feels good. Energy regeneration is a tad low, especially when Blade Flurry is up, but in general the spec is good at delivering quick damage to multiple targets and has two cooldowns which work well. I say two cooldowns, because Adrenaline Rush and Shadow Blades are macroed together to do good burst damage. Killing Spree is the other.

------------------------------------------------

PVP:

I am a big proponent of random and rated battlegrounds. I have well over 100,000 honorable kills earned on my rogue alone, Battlemaster, Conqueror, 2200 RBG rating. I love doing battleground PVP and that is the focus of my PVP experience.

My experience of level 90 PVP in battlegrounds and duels can be summed up as: outmanuevered, outdamaged, outlasted.

1. Every single class has much more mobility than rogues right now. Our mobility without Shadowstep is horrible. Burst of Speed costs too much energy to be usable. Even with Shadowstep, the lack of Preparation for double Vanish or double Sprint makes us extremely vulnerable to roots and snares. Many classes can literally run circles around us.

2. I don't feel like we do enough damage, our yellow attacks as Assassination and especially Subtlety do not hit hard enough for the amount of resource that we are using. I am having an extremely hard time killing almost anything, and when I do not crit on my yellow attacks I do not feel like my abilities are doing anything at all.

3.When I am PVPing against several different classes, I feel like they are doing way too much damage in relation to how much damage I can do back to them. Having Preparation definitely helps, but it still leads to two problems. The first being the disparity between our survivability when our cooldowns are up and when they are not, and the second being a complete lack of mobility in all cases. If we are specced into Preparation we must use our valuable defensive cooldowns, Preparation, Vanish, Cloak of Shadows and Sprint to actually catch many classes; and the net effect is that if we catch them it is only for a few seconds, and our defensive cooldowns are not usable because we have already applied many or most of them just to catch up to the target in the first place.

In summary I feel like the problem with rogue PVP, aside from general damage which can be fixed, is the seperation of Prep and Step. The two synergized really well where we could get to our targets, have a good uptime, and have enough cooldowns to be able to have a competitive chance to play well against them.

The opposite is the reality now, without both abilities there is no synergy which allows us to do this. Either we are extremely vulnerable to roots and kiting without the ability to catch our opponents, using several cooldowns to attain low uptime or we are able to catch them but unable to fight competitively because of the differences in base damage and lack of cooldowns.

I don't understand why the developers have picked these two incredibly awesome talents to pit against each other as means of mobility; they are not the same type of talent. The core of Rogue PVP since 3.3 (and 2.4) has been about the synergy of these two talents together, and not just because they made us effective, but because they made us fun. We could catch our targets and compete with them in toe to toe combat. We could move around the battlefield very quickly! We could make a difference in our faction's objectives!

Without these two talents together our role in PVP was a stunbot, who burned every cooldown to try and kill someone with a couple of Envenoms. It makes me very sad that this is the role and playstyle that the Rogue is being relegated to, because without the combination of these two abilities Subtlety is no longer viable in PVP and we have no other option.

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Well it took me about 2 hours to write this. It was my intention to be concise and non biased, and give you guys the best feedback about the aspects of the class that I do and don't like as possible. Sorry for the long post, but if we really have your ears right now I have to give you everything I have. I love this class, and I really hope that you guys will take the feedback of myself and the many other long time, loyal rogues to heart.

If I could make a summary about how I've felt about rogues starting out in Mists of Pandaria, I think my response would be "meh." I don't feel like we have gained anything new or exciting that changes the way we play, and I feel like rogues have gotten more stale with the recent changes because all of our specs play nearly identically to each other. At least at the end of Cataclysm I could choose between playstyle differences when I changed specs; I could play a timing oriented spec; a fast, use every gcd possible spec; or play a spec where I simply tried to keep up as many finishers as possible.

I would like to ask any of players who have read my entire post to please Thumbs Up it if you agree with many or most of the points I have made here. If we can show Blizzard that we are in agreement about many of the issues we are having, maybe they will give those posts a second read.


Just quoting this again for good measure. This post says everything that needs to be said, and is just about the only one Blue needs to read.
Edited by Bushido on 10/11/2012 11:33 AM PDT
90 Goblin Rogue
12515
So after reading the 5.1 patch notes on spell changes. Gota wonder if blizz even reads our forums. Not a single rogue change. While everyone else is gettin cd lowers and buffs to dmg left and right. A few balance things nice to see. But we are left in the !@#$ter once again
90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
I'm all for constructive criticism, but if it takes this much for Blizz to pay attention, I suggest you all stop playing rogues. Rogue numbers need to drop for them to consider changing us.
Edited by Noitora on 10/11/2012 12:17 PM PDT
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