Why we are energy starved.

(Locked)

35 Draenei Priest
2125
Daxxarri found Nemo. Later, after finding Nemo, he devoured the tiny clown fish.

Trufax.

But HE HAS NO MOUTH!!!

EDIT: Also, http://i.imgur.com/zpg85.jpg
It is relevant.

10/05/2012 01:48 PMPosted by Daxxarri
I wanted to drop by and find out some specifics regarding why you guys are sad.

You don't post enough Daxx. :*(

That's why we're sad... deep down, every Rogue knows this...
Edited by Mirotic on 10/5/2012 1:53 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Rogue
6790
10/05/2012 01:48 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Still, we want every class to feel fun and satisfying to play, and I wanted to drop by and find out some specifics regarding why you guys are sad

Honestly to me it just feels like I'm energy starved.
I feel if we got a boost in energy regen, we would all see a difference.
90 Human Rogue
12585
10/05/2012 09:01 AMPosted by Rfeann


Hold the phone.
I thought Shadow Blades only made auto-attacks do shadow damage.

Ooooops. So sorry. That is correct.

10/05/2012 08:23 AMPosted by Cloake
As of now Combo point generation is RNG, Energy generation is RNG, damage is RNG and ALL poison procs are RNG.

The entire *game* is RNG. RNG is at the essence of what makes gameplay interesting. Without RNG, procs would not exist, nor would effects like Blindside. I don't see your point.

Envenom also costs significantly less energy than the CP builders that come before it (though the actual energy cost per CP generated is roughly similar to the other specs), so I don't really get why you're picking on Envenom so much as the reason Assassination feels slow.

I'm gonna repeat my questions, because like I said I think this is an interesting topic, and I really want to explore it further without it descending into yet another of those "this sucks because I said so, and here's the perfect solution trust me" arguments that is neither helpful nor worth engaging in:
10/05/2012 08:15 AMPosted by Rfeann
Regardless, if you remove the CP cost from finishers, you dramatically unbalance the class relative to all of the others. How do you propose to get that back? Do you make the CP builders incredibly weak, such that the only damage we can do at all will come from finishers? Do you slow our energy regen or increase the energy cost of CP builders so we can't cast as many of them, which would take us right back to where we are now?


The part I bolded is what I'm replying to. There is such a thing as "interesting" RNG and "uninteresting" RNG. Dispatch (Blindside) is interesting because it's a proc ability we use to directly deal damage outside of a set rotation. It adds flavor and burst and breaks up the monotony.

Relying on RNG to stabilize our rotation, however, is not interesting. A Venomous Wounds proc is not interesting. A Combat Potency proc is not interesting.

Our huge scaling issues that we have every single Xpac speaks to a core, fundamental design problem with our class. It's why we start off so weak and wind up so powerful. It's a dichotomy we suffer from every expansion.

Right now the huge problems I see:

-Finishers dont "feel" powerful (Especially Envenom. Scaling problem, because with high Mastery as per Cata we saw how much damage it could do)
-Finishers double dip resources (Design problem)
-Energy regen issues (Scaling problem that hugely effects us at the start (and end) of an expansion in two entirely different ways)

Fixing those in a way that doesn't make us crazy powerful later on though, is a different story.
10 Goblin Rogue
10610
Still, we want every class to feel fun and satisfying to play, and I wanted to drop by and find out some specifics regarding why you guys are sad.

Edit: Please don't exaggerate the issues, by the way. It's much easier to relay information when I'm not trying to separate fact from fiction.


-The changes that were made to the rogue class make it feel like much more was being taken away from us than what was given to us. While other classes got new shiny abilities in their talent trees, we were given many options that were abilities we used to already have.

- The talents we were given (the new ones) seem boring and unimaginative

- Extremely cooldown reliant in PvP, and cooldowns have long lengths

I could go on for a while, but I won't drag it out. Many of us agree that Rogues were over tuned in Cataclysm. We think we needed to be taken back a bit, but the large sweeping changes that were made have left us feeling like we were neutered.

Rogues aren't very fun to play at the moment. It's not because we're weak, it's because we've been oversimplified and that there are many situations that present themselves where your options are so limited, it's not even worth attempting the next encounter.
90 Blood Elf Rogue
6040
10/05/2012 01:48 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Edit: Please don't exaggerate the issues, by the way. It's much easier to relay information when I'm not trying to separate fact from fiction.


What I feel is hurting the class overall is our CDs lengths. Compared to everyone elses CC burst and mobility our Cloak, vanish, evasion, blind, and possibly shadowstep need shorter CDs.

BoS can use a slightly smaller energy cost.

I agree 100% that last season with the legandaries rogues were out of control, when this patch first hit I was exited about it because it looked like all 3 rogue spec were going to be playable in PVP until getting steamrolled by just about every class in the game. Our (compared to other classes) low damage can be dealt with atm but it is just our inability to either get to our target due to our (again comparative) lack of mobility or just getting nuked because we have no CDs.
Edited by Failrogue on 10/5/2012 2:03 PM PDT
Woah, a blue. I didn't think you guys were allowed on the Rogue forum.


Class forums are places where we want players talking to players, but I heard you guys were a little frustrated. I wanted to drop by and say hi, and I saw the comparison with Monks. That kind of false side-by-side comparison is something I like to nip in the bud. It creates un-justified class jealousy, y'know?

Better to consider your class mechanics within the context of your class mechanics instead.


Our core damaging moves are rather... awful damage. In fact, the core of our damage across all our specs comes from auto attacks + poisons, my yellow hits feel awfully weak :s

Also, while you're lurking - its feeling like combat outside of its cooldowns on very short fights (and its cleave on cleave fights, naturally) is a little weak on the sustained dps front. Just my impression though. Heroics it's fine, as fights generally dont last much over the 1 min mark, so the cooldowns are super effective. But in raids it's feeling kinda... weak. Maybe it was just a lack of gear at the time, I'll see next week I guess.

As for why I'm "sad", it's not a dps issue mainly - it's the lack of variety in the specs, the squishy-ness of the specs outside of cd's, the class feeling worn, boring, old. There's a lot more details about this on the old beta forums.

For something more specific:
-Rotations are too similar across the specs, feels like just a change in ability name, not a change in playstyle. I'm looking at warlock spec variety with a lot of jealousy.
-Tricks of the trade's change has been horrifically bad. It's a dps loss for the rogue for the sake of buffing someone else's dps. That's not very "rogue-y", and it's not enjoyable for the rogue player either.
-Dat talent tree. There's walls of feedback regarding it, I'm not going into detail.
-Appauling baseline mobility. Shadowstep needs work.
-Too much passive damage
-Cp builders feel weak.

There's a million more I could list, but I won't.
Edited by Therogué on 10/5/2012 2:10 PM PDT
100 Night Elf Rogue
16650
I expect to feel a bit resource starved as I'm climbing my way into raid appropriate gear at the start of a new expansion. However there are a few issues that I think are exacerbating the furstration of a recently 90 heroic-farming rogue:

1. Almost all the starter gear has terrible stats. Really the majority of the gear appears to have crit, mastery, or both. Considering that to reach your necessary hit and expertise caps, you reforge every piece of gear to either hit or expertise, and you wind up without much haste contribution from your gear (and no real option to reforge for it).

2. Some heroic encounters make it dangerous to do significant DPS due to poisitioning. There are a myriad of encounters with damage circles on the ground. I feel that this, joined with stuns and other off-boss mechanics do not mesh well with the largely burst-window and cooldown based DPS my class and spec appear to be built around. If you get stunned or prevented from attacking the boss after popping your several minute CD's, you just got hosed on damage for the whole fight.

3. AOE damage is hard to maintain. The current state of rogue AOE isn't terrible, but I really think they could do with compressing the Crimson Tempest secondary DOT damage from 12 seconds to 8.

Number one will resolve itself as item budgets increase, and as more gear becomes available with more desirable secondary stats. Number two is an issue that's plagued melee for a long time (Mimiron, anyone?). Number 3 isn't game-breaking but I still think it could use a tweak.

Edited to fix a typo and for clarity.
Edited by Lubricious on 10/5/2012 2:08 PM PDT
100 Goblin Rogue
4000
Some passive crit bonuses to replace the crit that was taken away during the talent tree redesign would be nice. I think the lack of crits is the biggest change and could be causing this demoralizing feeling that we're all experiencing. Nothing is more upsetting then opening, building 5 cp and having your finisher barely move their health bar. :(
90 Blood Elf Rogue
6040
10/05/2012 02:07 PMPosted by Skaabs
Some passive crit bonuses to replace the crit that was taken away during the talent tree redesign would be nice. I think the lack of crits is the biggest change and could be causing this demoralizing feeling that we're all experiencing. Nothing is more upsetting then opening, building 5 cp and having your finisher barely move their health bar. :(


13-15% crit is just awful when mages, warriors, and just about wnyone else can crit for 100k easy.
90 Goblin Rogue
12515
I feel that the whole "We are going to take a long look at rogues" Posts during beta times were just a tease. We have once again been given the ugly knitted sweater for christmas. Not that most of us are suprised im sure.
90 Gnome Rogue
10645
10/05/2012 01:48 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Edit: Please don't exaggerate the issues, by the way. It's much easier to relay information when I'm not trying to separate fact from fiction.

Heard, understood, and acknowledged. HUA!

Here's the gist of what I've gathered, repeating what some others have said. Rogues have the following issues:

- We're very cooldown reliant. And in MoP, the cooldown length on some of our abilities was increased. I feel like Prep compounds the problem. Our cooldowns are currently balanced around having access to Prep, despite the fact that not all of us actually choose to take the talent.

- We're energy starved. While that's not unusual for Rogues at the beginning of an expansion, it feels exaggerated this time around.

- Much of our damage comes from passive auto attacks and poisons. This ties in to us being energy starved, and solving the former would have an effect on this.

- The intangibles: We feel a bit lackluster as best as I can put it. Our new abilities aren't much to celebrate. We received yet another long cooldown, while our level 90 talent choices feel like they could be better suited being made available at lower levels / in lower tiers.

I feel the majority of us who are honest with ourselves will admit that Rogues were over-tuned by the end of Cataclysm. But the response seems to have been a heavy pendulum swing in the other direction, leaving us feeling considerably diminished compared to the other classes, as well as compared to the history of our class in general, if that makes sense.

Again, we love you. Thank you for hearing us out.
Edited by Tantojutsu on 10/5/2012 2:13 PM PDT
90 Goblin Rogue
12515

13-15% crit is just awful when mages, warriors, and just about wnyone else can crit for 100k easy.


Or watching Warrior tanks crit for 150k+ aoe tanking. Granted it was nerfed but still....wtf
90 Pandaren Rogue
10475
10/05/2012 01:59 PMPosted by Sheevah
I could go on for a while, but I won't drag it out. Many of us agree that Rogues were over tuned in Cataclysm. We think we needed to be taken back a bit, but the large sweeping changes that were made have left us feeling like we were neutered.


Let's make a distinction here that is a very important one that is often glossed over. Rogues weren't over-tuned at all. In fact, the problem prior to 4.3 was that the rogue representation was extremely small due to utility, damage, and balance considerations - not to mention the "feel" of the class led to very poor representation across the board. It wasn't until legendaries were introduced that the Rogue class became more commonplace and more represented.

Note, legendaries should not be considered baseline damage nor expectations therein. That's where the confusion is coming from here. Rogues were only noticeably powerful at the later part of Cataclysm AFTER legendaries became commonplace. Without a legendary, my rogue was struggling to compete with people lesser geared. After the legendary, there was no question I was on top of damage the great majority of the time (unless a fight favored ranged or had a lot of target swapping).

The issues we're having right now partially relate to haste and other stats which will appear on later gear, but that our scaling seems out of sorts compared to other classes. To whit, I mean that the scaling of other classes generally starts off strong for them and weaker at the end where we tend to be weak at the start and stronger by the end (usually, at least the case for most expansions). This points to a scaling issue that needs to be tweaked so that the rampup to our damage isn't so great (both in terms of expansions/gear as well as rotation/priority) and the other classes don't peter off so fast (or peak so soon).

Without legendaries to prop up the class this expansion, we're seeing exactly the same problem that existed prior to 4.3. This time, we have no saving grace that will put us above everyone else due to a weapon. This time, we hope to have the problems addressed. Maybe it will. Right now, I'm hedging on not playing at all since this is just too common from class to class and expansion to expansion. I've changed mains before and I'm not doing it again.
Edited by Angosia on 10/5/2012 2:16 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
Still, we want every class to feel fun and satisfying to play, and I wanted to drop by and find out some specifics regarding why you guys are sad.

Edit: Please don't exaggerate the issues, by the way. It's much easier to relay information when I'm not trying to separate fact from fiction.


For me(as a Subtlety Rogue):
Being forced to use Rupture is a little well. Eh. It also causes our setup for burst to be quite a chore. (Got to get Rupture, Slice and Dice, then prepare a Kidney Shot, finally get to Dance+Trinkets etc).

The CD on Shiv with Crippling Poison is killer. I can't even exaggerate! It's really painful. No on-demand snare really, really hurts.

I also feel our Glove bonus is boring. It also hurts PVE Rogues. And our 4pc hurts Rogues who wish to use Crippling Poison in PVP.

Our Burst seems to be RNG dependant, which is kind of lame. With Dance, non-crit Ambushes don't really provide the bang you need. You really notice the difference. (Also, could we get our Shadow Dance bar back?)

Shadowstep still seems to be a weak gap closer.

Lastly, as many have and will say, our cooldowns are pretty long and cause the class to be kind of boring.

P.S: any chance you could share some possible planned Rogue changes in an upcoming patch? :p
Edited by Knocrogue on 10/5/2012 2:15 PM PDT
10/05/2012 02:09 PMPosted by Failrogue
Some passive crit bonuses to replace the crit that was taken away during the talent tree redesign would be nice. I think the lack of crits is the biggest change and could be causing this demoralizing feeling that we're all experiencing. Nothing is more upsetting then opening, building 5 cp and having your finisher barely move their health bar. :(


13-15% crit is just awful when mages, warriors, and just about wnyone else can crit for 100k easy.


Not to mention the frequency of the crits.
90 Night Elf Rogue
7060
The fact that he deviated from impartiality and actually acknowledged our plight is evidence enough that he loves us. Now, about that statue...


To be fair, I remain impartial in that I always have to (and want to) take the broad view when considering class issues. I also know that you guys are frustrated, but the hard truth is that, even before Legendary weapon hijinks, Rogues needed some adjustment.



Oh, like how the pve trinket would crit for 90k on openers. Or how 2 set pve gear would let us do 80k more damage on an opener? Legendary weapons were the smallest increase of all of them.

Or were you referring in the opposite direction were rogues could win any tournments in pvp when players started using all PVP gear. Were you saying we need to be buffed in that respect?

and why are you bothering to ask at all? Haven't you seen posts for 8+ months clearly explaining how the situation was going to be before it even happened.
Edited by Lifsha on 10/5/2012 2:22 PM PDT
90 Undead Rogue
10500
Rogue is my favorite class to play, and has been since the beginning of Wrath! +1 for being energy starved.
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