Why we are energy starved.

(Locked)

Honestly, my biggest issue is that Sub's damage was moved full on into Shadow Dance, and without any crit, our damage there is garbage.

That and mobility. We just have non compared to nearly every other class. They either have short CD gap closers that can be used twice, or some form of freedom. Step is the longest cd (I think?) and BoS is a little... expensive to say the least.
Edited by Relikar on 10/5/2012 2:24 PM PDT
90 Worgen Rogue
8950
My biggest struggle with the rogue class right now in PVE is the amount of gear that we need to be able to compete in a raid environment. I feel like our dependence on gear is making being a semi-hardcore raider painful--why bring us to a raid if there is a competent person from another class who can pull X% more DPS than you? The general tendency toward melee-unfriendly boss encounters exacerbates this. I just feel the damage at the start of this expansion is not tuned properly. I have hope that it will even out once gear levels increase, but the journey to get there makes me sad.

After lurking here and on other rogue forums--it doesn't appear the actual CLASS DESIGN for PVE rogues is making anyone upset. It's just the fact that a lot of us are working really hard to get really subpar DPS numbers. It's deflating at the beginning of an expansion when there's a lot of new content we want to experience but aren't really up to snuff to be put into a progression group.
100 Night Elf Rogue
11220
10/05/2012 02:13 PMPosted by Angosia
Rogues were only noticeably powerful at the later part of Cataclysm AFTER legendaries became commonplace.

This isn't true. When Dragon Soul began, rogues were up near or at the top of DPS meters for nearly every raid fight. Once we started grabbing legendaries, the gap increased. I can't speak to the problems you were having with your DPS relative to others, but as a class, rogues were doing very well by the time the final raid tier began.

There's an impressive amount of uniformity in a lot of the lists on this page. Here's my question about the CD issue: Are you willing to trade off shorter CDs if it means they'll be weaker as a result?
90 Undead Rogue
5490
Simply put; our damage output is too low.

While I don't like to drag other classes in to the discussion, one example is the fact that I can barely out damage Warrior second wind without Shadow Blades up. It's not a great feeling when you can only kill someone when all your cooldowns are popped. Without cooldowns, our Damage is absolutely horrible from a PvP standpoint. My Mutilate doesn't even break 20k crits, granted, I don't have the best daggers. But still, many of our abilities hit way too low at a comparable gear level to other classes. It's just saddening.

Edit: This is all from a PvP standpoint.
Edited by Deceasee on 10/5/2012 2:29 PM PDT
90 Goblin Rogue
12515

After lurking here and on other rogue forums--it doesn't appear the actual CLASS DESIGN for PVE rogues is making anyone upset. It's just the fact that a lot of us are working really hard to get really subpar DPS numbers. It's deflating at the beginning of an expansion when there's a lot of new content we want to experience but aren't really up to snuff to be put into a progression group.


This
100 Human Rogue
14435
I feel squishy, which is kinda fine moving into a new expansion. I came in expecting to feel weak, but I feel a smidgen weaker than I had expected. Cooldowns are always blown just doing dailies. God forbid that they do knockdowns/stuns or magic damage. I don't feel that we do enough damage to mitigate this increae in damage. I think its because we spend so much time rebuffing mostly passive effects like SnD and Rupture on targets, while active damage which is more useful in short encounters like dailies, pvp and heroic encounter be it trash or even bosses due to fight mechanics. Everything is constantly falling off.

I've been working a strategy to minimize this by using assassination which has a rather hard hitting multi-combo point primary attack to help cp generation and burst, and using versatility to save my CP between pulls, and it is better, but the basic problem remains. I feel that too much damage is largely passive. Our finisher feel especially weak. I can finish with envenom and wonder if the mobs health moved because of an auto attack crit or if it really was envenom. Combat isn't much different. I haven't given sub a test run yet due to its positional nature.

This also ties back into low damage and squishiness, because lower burst means more time to kill, which means more time to be a target dummy. This forces more rebuffing of recuperate, which lowers damage. Another cp sink, if you will along side rupture and SnD. And it also forces more CD use, accentuating that cooldowns are longer.

If I were to try and do something, I would lower see about lowering SnD's damage contribution, increasing rupture damage to make it more worthwhile. And maybe changing Deadly Momentum to buff to maximum duration on SnD and Recuperate on experience/honor kill. And consider increasing the recuperate glyph to 1% over .5%. Or buffing leeching poison a bit.

All that said, we aren't terrible, it just feels really bad for some reason. And the above is my best guess.
90 Pandaren Rogue
10475
10/05/2012 02:02 PMPosted by Therogué
Our core damaging moves are rather... awful damage. In fact, the core of our damage across all our specs comes from auto attacks + poisons, my yellow hits feel awfully weak :s


This is true to a disturbing degree. Poison as assassination is insanely out of proportion to the other abilities (envenom, dispatch, backstab, rupture) and even auto attack itself. As combat, I am shocked to see how much of my damage on single targets comes from poison and auto attack. Two passive actions where I do nothing but make sure SnD is up and I'm within melee range of the target garner the vast majority of damage for my character.

While cooldowns can alter the landscape to some extent, the interesting portion to me is exactly how very little those "visceral" buttons (eviscerate primarily and rupture secondarily) hardly do much more than annoy the target and do very little in terms of my overall damage representation. It is so sad as to be laughable now.

I can understand the PVP reasons for this. But, if you're going to neuter our finishers which require both a rampup (in terms of points and energy), then at least add a quality of life adjustment where our combo points travel with us instead of our target. Very few classes (and specs) have to start their damage cycle anew on different targets. If they do, at least their multi-dotting ability allows them to continue to do damage that cycles off as they finish the new cycle on their new target. We, however, seem to be hamstrung to a worse fate.

Consider for a moment that paladins, mages, and monks have the traveling combo point system (arcane charges for mages, holy charges for paladins, and of course the chi system for monks). And, in all cases I've seen (ignoring past expansions where this was true, but ignoring them for the sake of this argument) in MoP, these classes have absolutely no issues with target swaps, damage rampup, or sustained damage. We, however, seemingly are stuck with a double standard.

The exact same quality of life issues and balance problems that existed in the last patch before the legendaries which led to a low class representation are threatening to do exactly the same. We don't need more monitoring of a known problem. We need solutions.
100 Worgen Rogue
15020
This won't really change much. We just go from a higher baseline APM, and our APM scales faster. It doesn't make us more consistent in activity.
100 Human Rogue
10075
Wow, a rogue thread with a blue post.

Any feedback for the multitudes of issues plaguing us currently? I don't feel I need to go into all of the specifics, because the entire rogue forum has been filled with them since 5.0.4. Just... why?
90 Goblin Rogue
12515
Versatility a lvl 90 ability.....really?
100 Night Elf Rogue
16245
It's not exactly the same. We had huge damage ramp-up issues before, which were addressed by a major change to poisons (no more stacking DP before peak damage), and for combat, a major change to Bandit's Guile.

However one issue that's persisted more and more with each expansion is the fact that rogues are based around their cooldowns. A new expansion comes out and what do you get? Another cooldown. Gameplay that forces you to play at the level of a bored rhesus monkey, and then allows you to be aweome for 20-30 seconds every 3 minutes is just not compelling. When game mechanics interrupt your cooldown usage, that goes from not compelling to downright maddening. Speaking from a combat perspective here.

I've always been a rogue first and foremost, and I'll always be a rogue. But I'd seriously like to see some changes that allow me to consistently play my class, rather than shine for a few moments and then watch cooldown timers tick for several minutes.
100 Night Elf Rogue
11220
10/05/2012 02:39 PMPosted by Lubricious
I've always been a rogue first and foremost, and I'll always be a rogue. But I'd seriously like to see some changes that allow me to consistently play my class, rather than shine for a few moments and then watch cooldown timers tick for several minutes.

Are you saying you want cooldowns removed entirely, or just made a lot shorter?

Almost by definition, a cooldown is not going to allow you to consistently play your class; you'll be (arguably) playing it one way when the CD is active and another when it's not. If you make cooldowns shorter, they arguably have to become weaker, which risks making them pointless.
90 Human Rogue
0
It's not exactly the same. We had huge damage ramp-up issues before, which were addressed by a major change to poisons (no more stacking DP before peak damage), and for combat, a major change to Bandit's Guile.

However one issue that's persisted more and more with each expansion is the fact that rogues are based around their cooldowns. A new expansion comes out and what do you get? Another cooldown. Gameplay that forces you to play at the level of a bored rhesus monkey, and then allows you to be aweome for 20-30 seconds every 3 minutes is just not compelling. When game mechanics interrupt your cooldown usage, that goes from not compelling to downright maddening. Speaking from a combat perspective here.

I've always been a rogue first and foremost, and I'll always be a rogue. But I'd seriously like to see some changes that allow me to consistently play my class, rather than shine for a few moments and then watch cooldown timers tick for several minutes.


Pallies have a talent tier where they can choose between a DPS cooldown, buffing their current cooldown or a passive proc, that all average to about the same DPS. Pretty much all classes do.

I think its a great design - You want a cooldown? You can have a cooldown. Don't like being gimped outside CD cycles and uber inside it? You can have that too.

I would give up a DPS cooldown for a chance to make my next finisher free and act as if it had 5 combo points.
90 Human Rogue
10890
10/05/2012 01:48 PMPosted by Daxxarri
The fact that he deviated from impartiality and actually acknowledged our plight is evidence enough that he loves us. Now, about that statue...


To be fair, I remain impartial in that I always have to (and want to) take the broad view when considering class issues. I also know that you guys are frustrated, but the hard truth is that, even before Legendary weapon hijinks, Rogues needed some adjustment.

Still, we want every class to feel fun and satisfying to play, and I wanted to drop by and find out some specifics regarding why you guys are sad.

Edit: Please don't exaggerate the issues, by the way. It's much easier to relay information when I'm not trying to separate fact from fiction.


I'm just glad to see a blue posting about us. Gives me a slight sense of hope.
90 Night Elf Rogue
10615
The largest qualm I have with rogues as a whole;

You're provided 3 dps specs to play.. Which inevitably, you end up playing Assassination because it yields the highest PvE DPS...

Yet, the burst is almost 100% RnG. Our DPS as assassination is directly correlated to critical hits (combo points generated via seal fate) - Yet in MoP we're forced to lose 15% crit (talent), 30% crit damage bonus (talent), Cold Blood (talent), Deadly Brew (talent), and a couple other odds and ends (recoup useless now).. ON TOP of getting such an absolutely terrible agi->crit conversion ratio.

I'd like to see Combat, or Subtlety being viable as PvE specs.. As a class that can ONLY DPS, I'd enjoy having more than one 'real' way to do DPS.

Pertaining to PvP though;

I loathe that every spec but Combat feels so clunky and forced in it's rotation. Between Venemous Wounds, Sang Veins, etc.. We get it, you want us to use rupture as a class defining sustained damage ability.. We're okay with that. But, in PvP these abilities are tremendously cumbersome to maintain. You end up either losing a huge chunk of damage, attack speed increase, or self-healing to gain a moderate damage over time effect which.. as we all know, PvP is mostly about coordinated burst now, moreso than gradual pressure until victory.

Now if we add in the fact that Assassination burst is 100% RnG.. And either okay-ish or absolutely terrible.. Assassination becomes an unusable PvP spec. Now, I'm okay with this, because I feel there should be a difference in PvP and PvE specs.. Shouldn't be able to do everything as one talent set.. But, then we face the problem of our other two talent sets.

Subtlety in my opinion is horrible currently. Shadow dance without the crit damage talents, crit damage bonus, and forced rupture maintenance is.. unreliable at best. The fact that Ambush is weaker than Dispatch is discouraging. On a 1-1 basis, Dispatch will generally do more damage.. And you have a 30% chance to make dispatch cost zero energy via mutilate.

With that in mind, you find yourself forced to play Combat due to Adrenaline Rush being a burst CD, Killing Spree being our only class 'burst' CD that's actually in-line with other classes burst CD abilities.. It's underwhelming that you find yourself teleporting to pets, critters, random local npcs, or the fact that it can be avoided all together by a player with a speed bonus running away from you properly.. It's.. Sad.

Proposed solutions;

PvE DPS - Rogues need a better agi->crit conversion ratio. Full 463's should put you between 20-25% crit passive (let's not forget we no longer get 15% extra from talents) - I'm at 465 ilvl with 13.99% crit. Full enchants, gems, everything. Less than 14% crit as a class 100% dependent on critical strikes.

We also need to make Combat, and Subtlety viable PvE options. Sinister strike/Revealing in current state is a joke, so is backstab/hemo.

Both are considerably weaker than their counter part. (Mutilate, dispatch.) Which isn't saying much. Mutilate is already just shy of 50% of our entire energy pool for 2-4 (shadow blades) combo points, and between 40, and 80k damage. It takes us 4 seconds to generate that much energy (10/s+Ven Wounds) for very often 2 combo points.. and 40-80k damage.. Very, very poor.

I would also like to see ONE SINGLE SOLITARY DPS talent. One. Please? ... Please? Warriors getting Avatar, Dragon Roar.. Shamans getting Ascendance, primal pets, ele blast.. Priests getting power infuse, halo... Everyone gets 'something', except Rogues. We are the ONLY class that goes 1-90 picking support talents the entire way.

Our level 90 abilities are TREMENDOUSLY underwhelming. Anticipation needs to be a class skill, not a talent. Shuriken throw is terrible, and I feel like it's a bad joke trying to make rogues feel better about poison removal on throw.. Versatility is the only one that I feel should actually be an option, between two flat damage % increased cooldown talents.

It's also very underwhelming to be the weakest AoE class there is. Crimson Tempest is a good start, and I applaud the initiative.. but it needs work. It needs to apply to Venemous Wounds, if the target is poisoned while afflicted to tempest.. While maintaining the "Rupture>Garrote>Tempest" non-stack hierarchy.

I know my words fall on deaf ears, and Blizzard has forsaken us.. But, I've been a rogue since 2007. I've given the greater majority of my time, both free or not, to this game. I've downed all content at date, with an open mind an happiness to play my rogue every single day.

However, now it feels like a chore to play my Rogue, because I know for a fact we're so weak at the moment.

TL;DR - Make us more PvE viable please. PvP balance comes and goes.. But for a PvE dps class, we have 1 good dps spec.. and it's not even that great.

Love, Semisonic.
90 Goblin Rogue
10250
I just wanted to take a minute to clear things up.

I'll totally take credit for blue posting all up in hurr.

I also wasn't comparing them, just asking a question about their resource mechanics.
90 Human Rogue
10890
The main reason I'm sad is because Hunters got Readiness baseline (When giving it to BM is akin to giving Rambo a second minigun) but Rogues still have to break their legs to get Prep.

Makes me a very sad panda. (And I haven't race changed yet..)
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