Why we are energy starved.

(Locked)

90 Night Elf Rogue
5295
/patrick
Blizzard should take all the old crit bonuses...
And put them on the finishers!
/patrick
90 Pandaren Rogue
10475
10/05/2012 03:41 PMPosted by Rfeann
Maybe I should have put a paragraph break between my first quoted sentence above and the second one? First I commented on the similar themes struck by several posts, then I decided to ask a followup question about one of them in particular. It's totally cool that you don't feel CDs are one of the issues, but it's still something that's been raised by a number of folks in this thread (and many others).


If we are to apply the experience I have observed (and fell within the projected damage by Simulationcraft and Shadowcraft sites) plus that mentioned in this thread by others, it lends to the conclusion that the problem isn't with CDs - though it may seem that way. It, instead, lends to a different conclusion. Our scaling, largely due to weapon damage/dps, is more significantly impacting us such that we would start out weak and seem significantly stronger by the end of said expansion.

Indeed, without even mentioning legendaries, that was evidenced on this page and the last. So, let's assume for the moment this is true just for the sake of argument. It would certainly explain why other classes seem rather strong to us by comparison now (they ramp up faster but plateau toward higher end item budgets) whereas we seem relatively weak by comparison (we ramp up slow but arc much higher up with higher end item budgets).

This would point to 2 different problems which occur simultaneously but seem like 1: We scale too slowly AND/OR other classes scale too quickly at the start but wane later on by comparison. I suppose we could wait until the end of the expansion to watch this play out yet again. Or we could simply ask for it to be addressed.

Cooldown alterations may address the problem in the here and now but make us overpowered by the end and in need of a nerf. Which do you think is the better solution?
100 Human Rogue
9810
Oh, and energetic recovery on slice and dice? Not recup? Annnd, why does recup only heal for the same amount it did in Cata? Do you notice I have over double the health?
While I'm on that subject, I'm curious why other pure DPS classes - Mage and Hunter - kept both their mobility abilities (Blink, Disengage) on Shorter CDs than Shadowstep in addition to maintaining their CD reset abilities (Cold Snap, Readiness)? Some of them aren't even talents they have to sacrifice other abilities for.


This, +10192301928185189237
90 Gnome Rogue
10645
10/05/2012 03:48 PMPosted by Newkie
Do you really think its possible to give you any more specifics than have already been stated? Its been non stop criticism for weeks now, the people on this forum have done everything short of drawing it in !@#$ing crayon for you morons.

He was asking us to reiterate our grievances concisely in one location (this thread) and without undue emotion. Please don't make this harder on Daxx by belittling him into a scavenger hunt; he's trying to help us.
Edited by Tantojutsu on 10/5/2012 4:02 PM PDT
10/05/2012 01:48 PMPosted by Daxxarri
The fact that he deviated from impartiality and actually acknowledged our plight is evidence enough that he loves us. Now, about that statue...


To be fair, I remain impartial in that I always have to (and want to) take the broad view when considering class issues. I also know that you guys are frustrated, but the hard truth is that, even before Legendary weapon hijinks, Rogues needed some adjustment.

Still, we want every class to feel fun and satisfying to play, and I wanted to drop by and find out some specifics regarding why you guys are sad.

Edit: Please don't exaggerate the issues, by the way. It's much easier to relay information when I'm not trying to separate fact from fiction.


Here are my two cents for what they are worth.

Losing crit talents for dagger attacks, and crit damage for those attacks puts rogue combo point builders significantly at lower damage relative to health pools. Sinister Strike even costs more energy that it used to and that leaves rogue yellow damage rather anemic.

Subtlety requires the use of 2 finishing moves (SnD and Rupture) to raise its damage and energy regen slightly but even at that hemo and backstab do not do anywhere near enough damage to put pressure on anything the 5 seconds you are in melee range. This is a problem because.......

Our mobility sucks. Nerfed ShS and making us choose between prep, BoS, and ShS while other classes gained mobility easily makes rogues the least mobile melee class and the most dependent on auto attacks in this game (save Enhancement Shamans maybe?) This is also bad because.....

Low survivability. 3min cooldowns are the opposite of where evolution has taken every other class. Rogues took a huge step backwards losing elusiveness and in this expansion, there is no place for a 30 second druid vanish vs a 3 min rogue one.

Combine these heavy-handed nerfs with very melee unfriendly PvE bosses and very mobile PvP melee counterparts, and you have a class that is stuck back in vanilla and really isn't enjoyable or even playable for some people anymore. However this very same information was relayed to you during beta and you still did nothing to change it so of course rogues are pissed.
100 Night Elf Rogue
11160
If we are to apply the experience I have observed (and fell within the projected damage by Simulationcraft and Shadowcraft sites) plus that mentioned in this thread by others, it lends to the conclusion that the problem isn't with CDs - though it may seem that way. It, instead, lends to a different conclusion. Our scaling, largely due to weapon damage/dps, is more significantly impacting us such that we would start out weak and seem significantly stronger by the end of said expansion.

Some of the points you made in this post are part of why I was trying to draw the conversation about CDs out a little by asking about whether those who feel they're too long would be willing to accept them being weaker but more frequent. :) We haven't met before -- I think you've spent most of your time up till now over in General and in the Mists forum, ya? -- so just as an FYI, I tend to feel impartial in a lot of these discussions. I'm usually more curious to get to the bottom of why people feel the way they do about particular issues, and why certain solutions are or aren't better than others.

So, my question for you:
We scale too slowly AND/OR other classes scale too quickly at the start but wane later on by comparison. I suppose we could wait until the end of the expansion to watch this play out yet again. Or we could simply ask for it to be addressed.

But how? I don't disagree with the point you're making. Neither does Ghostcrawler, who posted about exactly this issue not long ago, though I'm having a heck of a time finding the quote -- there was a post somewhere within the past couple of months in which (I believe it was) GC talked about the "nerfs" to crit %, haste and so forth at the start of an expansion and said he wished there were a way to make it different, but that it was a necessary step to prevent stats from becoming progressively more ridiculous (read: 150% crit) as new expansions are released and gear levels continue to rise.

We can say "fix it," but what ideas do we have to bring to the table as to how? How can you make a class like ours less dependent on gear for our DPS while still ensuring that gearing is rewarding and necessary?
90 Pandaren Rogue
10475
10/05/2012 04:06 PMPosted by Rfeann
We scale too slowly AND/OR other classes scale too quickly at the start but wane later on by comparison. I suppose we could wait until the end of the expansion to watch this play out yet again. Or we could simply ask for it to be addressed.

But how? I don't disagree with the point you're making. Neither does Ghostcrawler, who posted about exactly this issue not long ago, though I'm having a heck of a time finding the quote -- there was a post somewhere within the past couple of months in which (I believe it was) GC talked about the "nerfs" to crit %, haste and so forth at the start of an expansion and said he wished there were a way to make it different, but that it was a necessary step to prevent stats from becoming progressively more ridiculous (read: 150% crit) as new expansions are released and gear levels continue to rise.

We can say "fix it," but what ideas do we have to bring to the table as to how? How can you make a class like ours less dependent on gear for our DPS while still ensuring that gearing is rewarding and necessary?


I'm not sure that I have an answer beyond adjustment of the scaling of our damage (damage coefficients, bonuses, and perhaps passive buffs (see energy regen)). And, to be quite honest, they don't take our answers on how to fix problems from the forums. GC has many times said this both in beta and in live forums.

Daxx has done his job in confirming there is an issue and relaying that feedback to the devs. They have to decide how best to resolve this problem - because no amount of us playing armchair developer is going to get them to do things "our way". I don't know that it should. What should, however, happen is for it to be done with rapidity and alacrity.
Imo, make recuperate passive. :D
90 Night Elf Rogue
5545
I think the best way to approach this is to video tape ourselves in arenas ,post them for blizzard to see and explainwhy we think X needs to change and show it in concrete evidence via video.

The sooner the better i think, and the more people who video tape themselves the better , cuz then blizz can see all skill levels of players so they know where tonmeet that happy medium so the pros arent OP but the casuals still feel competitive.
94 Blood Elf Rogue
0
10/05/2012 04:19 PMPosted by Relikar
Imo, make recuperate passive. :D

And make it a talent and stick it somewhere. Hunters get it.
While I'm not sure removing the energy cost on finishers would fully solve our energy starvation, I do agree that it's an outdated mechanic that's doing more harm than good.

10/05/2012 01:19 PMPosted by Daxxarri
While true, the abilities Monks use to generate Chi are not very damaging, while the strikes a Rogue uses to create combo points are core damage abilities.


Uh, have you seen sinister strike lately?

I personally would rather deal with being gcd capped instead of waiting around for energy.
That's just my preference, I like feeling like I'm smashing dem keys for a reason.

The harder and faster I hit my keys the bigger the crits.


Yeah, I've never understood why people view energy-capping as a bad thing. The active nature of the class is why I play a rogue.

10/05/2012 04:19 PMPosted by Relikar
Imo, make recuperate passive. :D


Lord no. Rogues have too much healing as it is. I want to get back to being a glass cannon.
Edited by Maigraith on 10/5/2012 4:26 PM PDT
90 Human Rogue
4310
10/05/2012 02:44 PMPosted by Rfeann
I've always been a rogue first and foremost, and I'll always be a rogue. But I'd seriously like to see some changes that allow me to consistently play my class, rather than shine for a few moments and then watch cooldown timers tick for several minutes.

Are you saying you want cooldowns removed entirely, or just made a lot shorter?

Almost by definition, a cooldown is not going to allow you to consistently play your class; you'll be (arguably) playing it one way when the CD is active and another when it's not. If you make cooldowns shorter, they arguably have to become weaker, which risks making them pointless.


No. The amount of CC in this game now shows a NEED for our cd's on a shorter timer. There was NO need to lengthen them for MoP. Most are used defensively.
10/05/2012 04:26 PMPosted by Maigraith
Lord no. Rogues have too much healing as it is. I want to get back to being a glass cannon.


We don't have that much self healing rofl.

We're currently glass pea shooters at best.
100 Pandaren Rogue
13120
10/05/2012 04:31 PMPosted by Newkie
He was asking us to reiterate our grievances concisely in one location (this thread) and without undue emotion. Please don't make this harder on Daxx by belittling him into a scavenger hunt; he's trying to help us.


Help us my !@#.


Stop being rude to the CM. He can't help in terms of development and only try to explain what is going on.
This topic is locked.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]