The problem with Disc (with math!)

5 Dwarf Priest
0
10/07/2012 10:37 AMPosted by Fleurs
I'm not "defending" antagonism, I'm personally tired of reading people's emotional posts regarding the priest situation OVER AND OVER AGAIN. It's so repetitive it's sickening.


Then stop reading this thread and posting in it.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
Wow, what the hell happened to this thread?

Some pages back, you asked for a log, Kaels - I can provide a link to one, if you wish.

I'd be interested to see how your analysis comes out on it.

Riôt

I'd love that. But I need to fix my numbers on the other ones as well, and I have to spam 97000000 more heroics on my pally before 8pm.

(Cataclysm dungeon bosses defeated: 53. Drops obtained for Holy spec: 3.)
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12855
10/07/2012 12:21 PMPosted by Advanced
From different standpoints you can say: This guy has never healed before and has only played shadow PVP before so maybe he picked up on things quicker than others. Thats why using real world logs from people who are having problems is better. You can take the time to realize his spell selection. He even explains his opinion and compare it to yours.


Just to be clear, Twistedmind is independent from me. With the snip it kinda sounds like our logs were combined. I just want to make sure that the distinction is clear.

Fey: It seems the other healing classes aren't feeling that kind of strain or stress. Not in Mana, not in spell selection, not in cool downs.

---

Advanced: That is a serious overstatement to healers who are in the same position as you, who dont care about math and want things to be comfortable. They are having similar issues on the same level.


Maybe it is an overstatement. My Druid didn't feel bad. The Druids I've been talking to like the changes. The Holy Paladins I've been talking to seem to be performing well and seem to have an easier time gathering spirit pieces than I have had. I haven't talked to too many Shamans or Mistweavers. The few Shamans I did talk to said they were happy with some of the changes, but most of their complaints were more in a PvP bent. Granted, it's a small sample of just people I know, but I'd like to think that I know some really good healers. Maybe that is a touch of hubris.

I also qualified my statement with my own experience. I could heal in my Tank gear and while my mana pool never seem to grow back as fast as I liked, I just adjusted my style accordingly and was able to heal a heroic. Math or not, that just feels absolutely wrong. I just simply did not notice that my health was high because my mana pool was the same as it should be as Holy. I just relied on more low mana cost spells and made careful use of beacon healing. I used my cool downs a lot. But it was fine. If I tried to do the same in Shadow Gear, well, that wouldn't work at all given the higher cost of Priest healing spells. Not unless I really had a lot of spirit pieces.

I'm hoping to have a much higher spirit for next week. I'm already 1400 higher than the logs, so I'll be able to see how much better my healing is when I regen more mana. We'll see.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12465
Wow, what the hell happened to this thread?

Some pages back, you asked for a log, Kaels - I can provide a link to one, if you wish.

I'd be interested to see how your analysis comes out on it.

Riôt

I'd love that. But I need to fix my numbers on the other ones as well, and I have to spam 97000000 more heroics on my pally before 8pm.

(Cataclysm dungeon bosses defeated: 53. Drops obtained for Holy spec: 3.)


Did you mean Mists dungeon bosses? ;p

I can't give any commentary, as I was not there (sadface), but I chose the longest Feng attempt (in part, because Disc longevity/mana are at issue) to link here. If you look at the overall for all 21 attempts, our Disc priest is in about the same place as he is in this attempt. I did not dig into the logs at all, so I'm sure there is plenty for the nit-picking, for those who like to miss the forest for the trees.

This is also 25m, btw.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l7aoznvi20uljkld/analyze/hd/source/?s=5767&e=6224

Riôt
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5 Dwarf Priest
0
Did they fix disc?
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
I'll be honest, I was good at math when I was younger, but I much prefer things with more feeling. But I try to get a sense of it, and let people who are stronger in math like Kaels and Sub solidify what it is I am feeling.

*snip*


This is precisely why we need to let things settle before we jump to conclusions about Disc's raid viability. All of us are biased in that we went into this thinking we knew how to play a Disc priest, and these preconceived notions can sometimes lead us to ignore what's right in front of us.

We need to fully explore the spec in the current raid environment before passing judgment. Give it a week, then go hard on the data.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9515
I also qualified my statement with my own experience. I could heal in my Tank gear and while my mana pool never seem to grow back as fast as I liked, I just adjusted my style accordingly and was able to heal a heroic. Math or not, that just feels absolutely wrong. I just simply did not notice that my health was high because my mana pool was the same as it should be as Holy. I just relied on more low mana cost spells and made careful use of beacon healing.

OMG. I have done this. I healed the first half of a heroic in my Ret gear. I didn't notice until I heard the "low mana" sound and was like "wtf? mana?"
Edited by Kaeladin on 10/8/2012 12:02 AM PDT
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5 Dwarf Priest
0
10/07/2012 11:07 PMPosted by Anarri
We need to fully explore the spec in the current raid environment before passing judgment. Give it a week, then go hard on the data.


At this point we have thousands of data samples. We have more than enough to draw valid conclusions.
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
At this point we have thousands of data samples. We have more than enough to draw valid conclusions.


We have thousands of data points from the same content, the same skill level, and the same playstyle. That's not nearly a strong enough foundation for any kind of blanket statement regarding the viability of the spec. Did you even look at post I quoted?
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90 Human Priest
13415
10/07/2012 11:07 PMPosted by Anarri
We need to fully explore the spec in the current raid environment before passing judgment. Give it a week, then go hard on the data.


A week from when?
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
10/09/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Stephenie
A week from when?


The day heroics opened? Just give it enough time to gather a decent number of parses from the first few heroic encounters.
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90 Draenei Priest
9370
How to "fix" Discipline:

1) Don't go through with the 25% buff to PoH (or if you do, make it for Holy priests only).

I am already spamming PoH a lot. I don't want to be shoehorned into spamming it even more. The changes I've outlined below should be sufficient.

2) Reduce the cooldown on Penance to 6 seconds, permanently. If you need to figure out a way to make this PvE only, that's fine. I don't care if you put it on every PvE 4 piece set bonus from here on out. (For those non-priests, this is what the T14 4-piece already does. I'm just asking for it to be baseline.)

3) Reduce the cooldown of Spirit Shell to 30 seconds, and reduce the duration of the effect (but not the absorb it produces) by half (to 8 seconds), to match.

This gives us more flexibility to use it more frequently, and in a 10 man raid (YMMV for 25s), The first half of the buff's duration is the most important anyway.

4) Make Atonement heals proc Grace. Also, make it interact somehow with Strength of Soul.

5) Reduce the cooldown on Rapture by 4 seconds, and also reduce its mana returns by 20%.

Alternately, come up with a completely different model for PW:S where it accumulates a charge every X seconds, and I casting it consumes one charge (you can't cast it at all if it hits 0 charges, until a charge comes back). Then, reduce its mana cost dramatically and throw out Rapture completely.

I think these changes would address our issues, without turning us into PoH spam-bots.
Edited by Treela on 10/10/2012 10:38 PM PDT
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
The problem with those changes, Treela, is that you'd still be totally tied to PoH. What Disc needs is another raid heal, one that allows them to cope with less predictable, non-party damage.
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A blue should really consider locking this thread. It should start over without half a dozen people allowed to participate.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11130
I can't believe that the disc priest didn't have spirit shell in their breakdown. When utilized spirit shell is a very nice spell.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
17875
10/11/2012 12:25 PMPosted by Eirwen
I can't believe that the disc priest didn't have spirit shell in their breakdown. When utilized spirit shell is a very nice spell.


Until it actually stops healing and just wastes your mana. :D
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
10/11/2012 12:13 PMPosted by Shoegaze
A blue should really consider locking this thread. It should start over without half a dozen people allowed to participate.

Agreed.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12860


How much spirit does the disc priest have in comparison? A lot of disc priests are sacrificing through-put for regen at the moment from what i understand.


Good point, he had indeed more spirit. That doesn't make my point less valid though... You cannot compare single players to draw a general conclusion.


Just wanted to point out. I don't believe this was said yet. (have only got to page 4.) The 10% spell power buff from inner fire, although in this case you used inner will, is not shown in your armory. So with 10% more spell power hes a lot closer to their spell power. But as you said you used inner will for your analysis so perhaps this is an invalid speculation.

I have to agree though with comparing the top healers of every class doesn't provide the most definite information. There are a lot of variables that aren't accounted for and some players might just be set up more advantageously than others. Regardless its blatantly obvious that either players have not adjusted properly to the changes to priests or, priests are simply not as strong as the other classes at the moment.

I personally haven't raided yet the most I've done was pug a 25m vaults with some pretty bad people and was only at around 450 ilvl and I performed fairly well compared to my other healers with more gear. Yes mana was pretty tight but I was also enchantless and gemless and most importantly poorly geared. Not to mention the masses of people standing in !@#$.
Although in LFR I'm destroying people in terms of HPS. Ofc this is LFR so it doesn't matter.

At the moment I just feel priests have to work harder than the other classes but that's fine with me I enjoy a challenge! Similar to how at the start of cata people were giving me %^-* for playing disc and not wanting to tank heal but I proved them wrong would beat the other healers by 1-3 mil depending on how bad the other healers were. (Yes I am aware disc eventually became a viable raid healing spec but at first it was shunned)
Edited by Nametwenty on 10/11/2012 9:16 PM PDT
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