The problem with Disc (with math!)

90 Blood Elf Priest
5755
Sincere thanks to Kaels for putting this together to show the mana issues we face. The Devs asked for data and Kaels has been kind enough to provide it.
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90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
The information you are using is the worst possible information you can use to make a conclusion considering the priest you showed, had 89.9% uptime on his heals. Not to mention he was spamming PW:S so he obviously has no clue what he is doing.

EDIT: wait... no spirit shell wtf. worst log ever.

The paladin is obviously padding, and using a fight that a paladin can absolutely dominate for a comparison is not good.

Math or not, this is just awful to look at.

Nice try. 0/10

Waiting to see the next math on priests. I'm not saying they aren't broken, but at least come up with some good comparisons for proof.

EDIT: just want to mention that alot of guilds worth a damn aren't posting their logs because of competition. So there's alot of data missing.
Edited by Advanced on 10/6/2012 2:00 PM PDT
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80 Gnome Warlock
13090
When you are able to provide comparable math that Kaels provided, you will be taken seriously.

The information you are using is the worst possible information you can use to make a conclusion considering the priest you showed, had 89.9% uptime on his heals. Not to mention he was spamming PW:S so he obviously has no clue what he is doing.

EDIT: wait... no spirit shell wtf. worst log ever.

The paladin is obviously padding, and using a fight that a paladin can absolutely dominate for a comparison is not good.

Math or not, this is just awful to look at.

Nice try. 0/10

Waiting to see the next math on priests. I'm not saying they aren't broken, but at least come up with some good comparisons for proof.

EDIT: just want to mention that alot of guilds worth a damn aren't posting their logs because of competition. So there's alot of data missing.


When you are able to provide comparable math similar to what Kaels provided, you might be taken seriously.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12945
Just wanted to point out a variety of Holy Priest concerns since it's my preferred spec:

Besides the fact that our healing output is half of what other classes are doing:

1. I still see no justification for the way Chakra still currently works. Having to choose between a 15% boost on our AoE spells and a 15% boost on our single-target spells does not add flavor or complexity to the Holy tree, it just puts us a a disadvantage when compared to All other healers who don't have to make such decisions. And as we can see form early Caty and now Pandaria, Blizzard seems to have a hard time putting priests output into perspective when compared to other healers. Perhaps Chakra is one of the many culprits.

It's time to do away with these spell boosts, give us access to both Serenity and Sanctuary at all times (bake Serenity into Chastise, allies it heals, enemies it disorients) and adjust our heals accordingly.

a. Sanctuary's cooldown and duration should be nearly equal. It felt a lot smoother when this was the case back in our previous tier's 4 piece bonus.

b. Allow for Serenity to keep its Renew refreshing aspect.

2. Like Disc Priests, mana is hard to come by for a Holy Priest, especially since we've lost our passive talent Holy Concentration. It always felt more "priestly" of us that Holy Priests got a little more bang out of spirit. Seeing this gone is loss of actual flavor and something I'd like to see returned.

3. Divine Insight's Prayer of Mending is overriding any pre-existing mending which is wasting mana. Holy and Disc are still missing UI alerts for this talent as well. Also for aesthetics sake, it would be nice if DI's Mending and PW:S had a different color/spell animation from the normal version.

4. Glyphs
Holy only Glyphs are as follows: Circle of Healing (heals 1 extra person for 35% more mana, Lightwell (adds 2 charges), Lightspring (makes Lightwell automatic).

With our current state, the extra mana cost on the Circle of Healing glyph is silly and we have two glyphs devoted to Lightwell alone. The 2 charge Lightwell glyph is not needed and could be changed with something more fun and interesting for Holy (thinks back to the awesome glyph we once had for Guardian Spirit which would reset to 1 minute if the proc wasn't used /sigh).

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.
Edited by Senari on 10/6/2012 2:28 PM PDT
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100 Human Priest
13250
Kaels,

that's something I noticed immediately after patch 5.0. My Active time (did you mean Advanced?) went from near 100% (almost always when I was really putting in effort), to much lower.
Inspite of the fact that I was trying my damndest to keep up with our lesser geared pally, whom literally the day before had lower active time and much lower heals, to surpassing me with ease on both, my active time seemed to have dropped.

I did not feel I had more idle time, infact the complete opposite was true and I certainly wasn't spamming PW:S. The pally firmly admitted he was not trying hard at all and was more relaxed than ever. Just strange.

Are any of disc's activities eg: cd's, atonement etc. not considered as active time?

Or, maybe in your example, it's just the mana isssue inhibitting active time. Interested in your opinion.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5755
The information you are using is the worst possible information you can use to make a conclusion considering the priest you showed, had 89.9% uptime on his heals. Not to mention he was spamming PW:S so he obviously has no clue what he is doing.

EDIT: wait... no spirit shell wtf. worst log ever.

The paladin is obviously padding, and using a fight that a paladin can absolutely dominate for a comparison is not good.

Math or not, this is just awful to look at.

Nice try. 0/10

Waiting to see the next math on priests. I'm not saying they aren't broken, but at least come up with some good comparisons for proof.

EDIT: just want to mention that alot of guilds worth a damn aren't posting their logs because of competition. So there's alot of data missing.


He went with the top healers from those classes. He could break down bigger cross sections average it out etc but that is a lot of work and his spell breakdowns show how mana intensive disk is for such low output. He even mentioned that the priests using spirit shell came in lower than the priest he used for calculations.
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90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
10/06/2012 02:21 PMPosted by Laldow
When you are able to provide comparable math similar to what Kaels provided, you might be taken seriously.


If you can't see how ludacris his comparisons are, you're just as bad as his examples.

0/10 troll

next attempt please.

He went with the top healers from those classes. He could break down bigger cross sections average it out etc but that is a lot of work and his spell breakdowns show how mana intensive disk is for such low output. He even mentioned that the priests using spirit shell came in lower than the priest he used for calculations.


If you think those are the top healers for the classes, you are sadly mistaken.

All of those priests are absolutely atrocious; if you can't see that, then say no more.

I'm very aware of what he did and what he said. But he still hasn't proven anything except that the priests that ARE posting logs are absolutely terrible.

I'm not disagreeing that priests need buffs to regen and aoe mitigation (NOT READ BURST), but I will say his examples are bogus and just doesn't fit the comparison at all.

Nothing against Kaels, or his many fanboi's. But its OBVIOUS that the preparation, quality, and limitation of data is skewed and not providing the necessary prove to support his claim.
Edited by Advanced on 10/6/2012 2:46 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12955
10/06/2012 01:41 PMPosted by Advanced
The information you are using is the worst possible information you can use to make a conclusion considering the priest you showed, had 89.9% uptime on his heals. Not to mention he was spamming PW:S so he obviously has no clue what he is doing.

(1) He was absolutely not spamming PWS. He cast 54 PWS and had 29 Raptures - that's less than 2 PWS per Rapture, and only 4.5 PWS/minute across a 12-minute fight.

(2) Look at Disc uptime across a good cross-section of logs. You'll see that they universally have low uptimes. I was actually thrown off by that at first when I was working on my monk thread - I was seeing high-performing disc priests with uptimes on the order of 60-70%. (I was like "Did this guy die on this fight?...no...wtf?") This guy's actually pretty high for Disc at almost 90.

I *think* part of the issue is that Smite/HF casting time isn't being counted as healing uptime. It is being counted as DPS uptime (he's got about 20% DPS uptime).

10/06/2012 01:41 PMPosted by Advanced
EDIT: wait... no spirit shell wtf. worst log ever.

Again, this guy outperformed priests using Spirit Shell. I could use the #2 with spirit shell, and was debating it, but at a glance it wouldn't have affected the numbers much if at all.
Edited by Kaels on 10/6/2012 2:46 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
10/06/2012 02:45 PMPosted by Kaels
I *think* part of the issue is that Smite/HF casting time isn't being counted as healing uptime. It is being counted as DPS uptime (he's got about 20% DPS uptime).

Thats a fair assessment.

10/06/2012 02:45 PMPosted by Kaels
Again, this guy outperformed priests using Spirit Shell. I could use the #2 with spirit shell, and was debating it, but at a glance it wouldn't have affected the numbers much if at all.


If you think those are the top healers for the classes, you are sadly mistaken.


As far as i'm aware, you just took a random fight you haven't even done before and tried to compare the data.

It was a nice effort, but this is the same tactic tiberria used to make fallacious claims about regen etc when she was assessing paladins.

Turns out everything I said was right, and she was full of total crap.

I'm not here to police your thread or call you a liar or say the problems dont exist. I'm just here to inform you that your datapoints are absolutely terrible.
Edited by Advanced on 10/6/2012 2:56 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12955
10/06/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Advanced
If you think those are the top healers for the classes, you are sadly mistaken.

Well, then, if there is someone playing Disc and getting better results, I would very, very much like to see their logs.

I find it somewhat unlikely, however, that raids with good disc priests would be significantly less likely to post public logs than raids with good healers of other classes.
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90 Pandaren Priest
9955
Kaels is anything but a troll.

To even suggest that this player is trolling shows your complete ignorance of how much effort they have put into the healing forums to not only support others but also make the game as a whole more fun (see: better).

Edit: I cannot tell you how upset I am that anyone would even suggest he is trolling. Seriously look at his posting history...

omg I think I popped a blood vessel >=(

<3 Kaels
Edited by Jilu on 10/6/2012 2:56 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
10/06/2012 02:55 PMPosted by Kaels
Well, then, if there is someone playing Disc and getting better results, I would very, very much like to see their logs.


wait until they release them and wait until you find a priest who knows what they are doing..

... or do you not know how to play a priest after so many months on beta?

How many disc priests from good progression guilds do you see on the parse list.

I'm not attacking you; i'm just saying that i'm 100% with blizzard on L2P, even though I agree with the variety of problems they are having.

Kaels is anything but a troll.

To even suggest that this player is trolling shows your complete ignorance of how much effort they have put into the healing forums to not only support others but also make the game as a whole more fun (see: better).

Edit: I cannot tell you how upset I am that anyone would even suggest he is trolling. Seriously look at his posting history...

omg I think I popped a blood vessel >=(

<3 Kaels


I wasn't even posting to kael's, if this was directed at me.
You didn't have to declare your fanboi status to the world y'know. :P

I think Kael's does a fantastic job on bringing up issues and making them aware to the public. I just think the way he presents his data (and the majority of his math) is absolutely terrible and does nothing to prove his point.

10/06/2012 02:55 PMPosted by Kaels
I find it somewhat unlikely, however, that raids with good disc priests would be significantly less likely to post public logs than raids with good healers of other classes.


You dont see many seriously good guilds posting logs. Just the ones who like to pad as per usual.
At present time, disc priests dont seem to be the same 'pad aegis' faceroll spec they were in ds. People need to adjust to the changes and learn the strengths of every particular fight.

Not to mention normals weren't particularly hard at all, so many people (including myself) literally walked in a facerolled them, wiped a few times to adjust to mechanics, and are now waiting for heroics. We didn't perform optimally because we weren't challenged. If you want to use faceroll and lazy logs to compare data, that was your first mistake. But I can almost guarantee there wont be any decent logs next week either.
Edited by Advanced on 10/6/2012 3:09 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
TF
6360
10/06/2012 01:41 PMPosted by Advanced
Waiting to see the next math on priests. I'm not saying they aren't broken, but at least come up with some good comparisons for proof.


Disc biggest issue is that its only raid heal is highly restrictive. This isn't an issue on fights where there's raid wide AoE, but the limitations of Disc's toolkit really shows on fights like Emperor.

To preface, most of the healing outside of Titan Phase) is tank healing. Occasionally, a raid member or two may take damage from either the bosses or the adds. Unlike the other classes with smart raid heals (WG, CoH, CH etc.) or efficient single-target HoTs, Disc has to resort to the more inefficient GHeal, often getting sniped in the process too.

Okay, so let's put Disc on full time tank healing then. But wait, the damage on the tanks is rather spikey, which means that Disc cannot rely on the small, efficient heals from Atonement to help with their mana efficiency. At least Disc has a rather substantial single-target heal with Grace and PW:S to help with the spikes - it sounds good in theory, but the fact of the matter is that Disc's single target toolkit pales in comparison to the other classes.

For instance, the Shaman mastery means that they're much more adept at dealing with the huge spikes on tanks, which also means they are going to be more efficient. Druids have a 90k glyphed Regrowth (factoring in Living Seed) at a 1.3s cast versus my 80k Gheal (with 3 stacks of Grace) with a 2.2s cast, with both having similar mana costs. Also, Disc Priests do not have the luxury of Clearcast procs. Penance is decent, but its healing is roughly 75% of a Regrowth's, and unlike Regrowth, it has a CD too. This isn't even factoring in the fact that a LBx3 and Rejuv on the tank provides good padding against the burst damage.

People really assume that Disc is great at tank healing, and I really wish it were, but the reality is that even Disc is outclassed in this department. Anyway, back to my point, the issues with Disc are multi-layered -

1) Certain aspects of our toolkit lacks synergy, notably with IF, SS and AA. There's no reason why they shouldn't stack.

2) Disc's lack of a smart, raid heal means that we have NO effective way of dealing with random damage on the raid.

3) Disc has mana issues - our throughput is limited by our mana to a greater extent than the other classes as we do not have a hyper efficient heal. Good news, this means we'll probably scale well once we get much more Spirit. Bad news, enjoy this tier healing conservatively or risk going OOM at inopportune times.

4) I've healed on a Resto Druid in Cata (and their toolkit remains rather unchanged and in fact, increasing the duration of LB and Harmony has simplified the class) and Disc/Holy for quite a while. Unlike the other classes, Disc has a LOT more short CDs to manage, and the amount of effort required to optimally heal as Disc is much higher compared to the other classes.

Sorry for the rambling, but it's 6am and I'm distracted by the LoL world championships. >.>
Edited by Ceddya on 10/6/2012 3:09 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12955
10/06/2012 02:58 PMPosted by Advanced
How many disc priests from good progression guilds do you see on the parse list.

The top progression guilds don't generally post public logs until after progression is basically over. We're generally restricted to tier 2 guilds for the early data on all classes.

And for classes that might be at a disadvantage, we're restricted even further: to those tier 2 guilds who don't bench specs or class-stack in early progression.

But tier 2 guilds aren't bad. Anyone in one of the roughly 250 guilds in the world who have beaten this fight on 10m is not bad. (That's why I picked this fight.)
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90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
10/06/2012 03:08 PMPosted by Ceddya
Sorry for the rambling, but it's 6am and I'm distracted by the LoL world championships. >.>


Not a problem!

I'm aware of all the issues, but stating only the negatives and not the positives of the class really doesn't help build discussion.

You've effectively proven my point more though, as that fight is absolutely terrible and restricted for discs toolkit so its not a good one to compare the toolkit.

More of a reason NOT to use it as a datapoint.

10/06/2012 03:08 PMPosted by Ceddya
3) Disc has mana issues - our throughput is limited by our mana to a greater extent than the other classes as we do not have a hyper efficient heal. Good news, this means we'll probably scale well once we get much more Spirit. Bad news, enjoy this tier healing conservatively or risk going OOM at inopportune times.


Everyone has mana issues. Disc is only slightly worse; but its because their heals need to be effective since they aren't a pure hps spec like mistweaver and partially rdruid

10/06/2012 03:08 PMPosted by Ceddya
2) Disc's lack of a smart, raid heal means that we have NO effective way of dealing with random damage on the raid.


Still seeing people use PoH effectively and not getting fed innervates.

10/06/2012 03:08 PMPosted by Ceddya
1) Certain aspects of our toolkit lacks synergy, notably with IF, SS and AA. There's no reason why they shouldn't stack.


agreed
Edited by Advanced on 10/6/2012 3:13 PM PDT
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100 Human Priest
13250
'People need to adjust to the changes and learn the strengths of every particular fight. '

People?? don't you just mean Disc priests Advanced?

You may not think you come across as aggressive (debatable), but you do have an entirely condescending tone in your communication though.
Edited by Shahnai on 10/6/2012 3:18 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
People?? don't you just mean Disc priests Advanced?


No, that's for all healers. we 2 healed all fights in MSV with the exception of stone guard, which we were 3 healing to work on how we were doing our heroic strat and decided to just move on. Theres almost no damage going out if your raiders are dying to avoidable mechanics.

You may not think you come across as agressive (debatable), but you do have an entirely condescending tone in your communication though.


I apologize for that, its hard to not sound condescending when you are saying someones math is making you vomit.

I'm busy working on other things so i have to make my answers quick as well.

I'm really a nice guy; I just don't want bath math using bad or OP players becoming believable.
Edited by Advanced on 10/6/2012 3:22 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
TF
6360
10/06/2012 03:12 PMPosted by Advanced
You've effectively proven my point more though, as that fight is absolutely terrible and restricted for discs toolkit so its not a good one to compare the toolkit.


Uh, none of the classes have toolkits that are restricted as Disc's on fights that don't feature much raid AoE damage. Isn't that an issue by itself?

10/06/2012 03:12 PMPosted by Advanced
Everyone has mana issues.


Yes, but Disc's mana issues are exacerbated by the fact that it doesn't have a smart raid heal, which means that if you have to PoH 3 people, its efficiency is only slightly higher than a GHeal, which isn't even efficient to begin with. You could use Renews, but then you're trading HPS for HPM. Additionally, comparing the HPM of PoM compared to spells like Wild Mushroom: Bloom or the PBAoE heals makes me sad.
Edited by Ceddya on 10/6/2012 3:24 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
10/06/2012 03:21 PMPosted by Ceddya
Uh, none of the classes have toolkits that are restricted as Disc's on fights that don't feature much raid AoE damage. Isn't that an issue by itself?


This is another discussion for another time; While I agree with you wholeheartedly, it doesn't pertain to the original post.

Yes, but Disc's mana issues are exacerbated by the fact that it doesn't have a smart raid heal, which means that if you have to PoH 3 people, its efficiency is only slightly higher than a GHeal, which isn't even efficient to begin with. You could use renews, but then you're trading HPS for HPM. Additionally, comparing the HPM of PoM compared to spells like Wild Mushroom: Bloom or the PBAoE heals makes me sad.


Whenever disc gets on the same HPS level as any other healer, it instantly becomes the better healer. More efficiency, less overheal.

If it had a 'smart raid heal' that was also efficient and didn't overheal it would destroy every other healer in terms of usefulness.

You shouldn't compare HPM of PoM to WM:B
Those are very tiberria-esque comparisons that aren't really comparable due to the nature of the heals.
Edited by Advanced on 10/6/2012 3:28 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
18150
Here is my problem Kaels.

Although what you show is fair math, not only is the sample size wrong the disparity of the players you're comparing is iffy at best. Mathematically and in a meters perspective, if Disc is able to match others on parses considering both players are of same skill, Disc is by default the best healer. With Disc new mechanics, Blizzard HAS to be extremely cautious because it can easily be used to cheese encounters and mechanics. I'm not saying disc doesn't have problems, but when designing/balancing classes you have to look at everything, and not just Numbers. Boss mechanics, every other healing class, tank mechanics, etc.

People may find it hard to believe, but meters aren't everything. Can disc use a buff? Sure, but it should NOT be able to be compared by parses, it's simply unfair to every other healing class who wants balance because how easy it can become for Disc to cheese mechanics which can make them required unlike the other healers. Disc is a special snowflake, no other class can do what it can do, and that in its own is something to remember. I'm sure they'll end up throwing some help if Disc/Holy isn't represented in raids as much, but remember there is much more to account for.

You also have to remember, it's very difficult to allow ONE class the option for all 3 of their specs to be viable. There is a reason every spec only has 1-2 optimal raiding specs and almost never 3. It just can't be achieved, and I know Holy is doing extremely well in the hands of good players because my friend is a Holy Priest and his guild gives him no problems and he also 2 healed every fight in Vaults like my raid comp did and didn't complain. There is a lot to take in, and I'm sure they will throw something to disc but again you can't expect it to be much. With how Disc mechanics work now and the potential of the shields, it can easily break encounters but a lot of priest only care about parses it seems, at least the casual ones.

If I also recall they tried to separate Disc from Holy which in turn would have made it easier to balance, but priest created a storm of rage causing them to revert the change. Having them both share PoH is extremely troublesome in its own and should've never been fought for to keep. If anything mechanics will be what may keep disc at a slower pace than holy for that very sad fact.
Edited by Sensations on 10/6/2012 3:34 PM PDT
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