The Klaxxi - Foreshadowing for the Horde?

100 Night Elf Warrior
11570
My point was that there hasn't been any indication in the WoW universe that councils are neither as functional, nor as resistant to catastrophic failure as ours (theoretically) are. Even when they aren't corrupted from the inside, such as the Klaxxi, they lack the power to actually DO anything, at least without outside help.

In order for a regulatory body within an orginization like the Horde to work, they would have to be able to exercise power over the Warchief. Maybe if this council of elders/wisemen was in command of the Kron'kar (or whatever the bodyguards are called) it could work, but as it standst heres been no system in any faction which has that kind of power.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Warlock
11345
10/07/2012 06:33 PMPosted by Caeledor
but as it standst heres been no system in any faction which has that kind of power.


And the Magisters controlling all the magic, the Forsaken Cult of the Damned also controlling the magic, the Sunreavers being the only Kirin Tor allies the Horde has (and that has got to be strained at best now), the Goblins controlling the entire economy/trade routes/technology, the Undead controlling most of northern Eastern Kingdoms,, etc, I think a simple council of important faction members would more than do the job of controlling the Warchief.

Warchief: "I WANT PORTALS TO CONQUER THE LAND"
Magisters: "Nope. Council said no and you can't make us."
Warchief: "I WANT MORE BOMBS"
Goblins: "You have exceeded the monthly allowance of explosives warchief"

Etc
Reply Quote
96 Undead Warlock
8885
Depending on what kind of Council it is, really. A Council of Elders, well, I would have to say that Goblins and Undead proberly wound't be placed on that council.

And Wasn't the point of the Klaxxi to kill the queen if she does something stupid? I am pretty sure the bug council doesn't hold any sway with her beyond ''we will kill you if you do something we don't like''.

Could be wrong, haven't done Dread Wastes.

P.S. is that massive tree in the Wastes like the massive trees in Ashenvale, Feralas, Duskwood, Crystalsong and Hinterlands?
Edited by Ximothy on 10/7/2012 8:12 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Warlock
11345
And Wasn't the point of the Klaxxi to kill the queen if she does something stupid? I am pretty sure the bug council doesn't hold any sway with her beyond ''we will kill you if you do something we don't like''.

Could be wrong, haven't done Dread Wastes.

P.S. is that massive tree in the Wastes like the massive trees in Ashenvale, Feralas, Duskwood, Crystalsong and Hinterlands?


No, they aren't the same trees.

The purpose of the Klaxxi were to check the Queen's power, select the new Queen, and oversee the battle royal that takes place between the two as the rites of succession and see that the new Queen devours the old.

Also to preserve and maintain the paragons.
Reply Quote
96 Undead Warlock
8885
10/07/2012 08:19 PMPosted by Baalsamael
The purpose of the Klaxxi were to check the Queen's power, select the new Queen, and oversee the battle royal that takes place between the two as the rites of succession and see that the new Queen devours the old.


Ah, thank you.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
11080
10/07/2012 05:30 PMPosted by Caeledor
First, wisdom is temporally subjective, and based almost entirely on perspective. In hindsight, Ner'zul was a fool. In Hindsight, Valen was too, for thinking Kil'Jaedan might see what he saw in Sargeras. Still, why don't we totally ignore the fact that we are told, matter of factly, that Ner'Zul was the wisest and most powerful of the pre-corruption Shamen. It of course has no bearing in anything, now does it?


The least foolish of a band of fools is still a fool. So no, it doesn't.

In the end, the Orcs were outclasses and basically doomed by a force eons above and beyond them. No power structure would have saved them simply due to the discrepancy in power between they and the Legion.

As to Velen, he wasn't a fool so much as he was hopeful - his power, however, was limited in comparison to that of Ner'zuhl, so his accountability is less.

Second, there are at least 2 other situations, directly from WoW, which show that your ideal is flawed, particularly in the Warcraft world. The Tribunal and the fall of the Eredar, and the corruption of the Council of Nobels leading to the riots in Stormwind and the formation of the Defias Brotherhood. Oh, then theres Thermaplug's manipulation of the Gnomish assembly. And the whole Klaxxi system has clearly worked out so well for them.

No, when i think about it, the Warchief system is alot more stable as it is without having to adopt any of this psudo-democratic, double tier checks and ballance nonsense.


In the case of the Eredar, it was them vs. the single most powerful evil entity known to exist by an unerring margin. The fact that he was able to convince 2/3, however, means that he was able to convince 2/3, and that last third gave the Burning Legion one of their single greatest enemies.

If all there was was Kil'jaden or Archimonde, we'd not have the Draenei. Because of the council system, some of the Eredar directly escaped corruption. So, this example actually proves the notion, rather than refutes it.

The Council of Nobles, meanwhile, also has little bearing on the argument - even the King himself was directly manipulated by Onyxia, and moreso to an even greater, nay, cartoonish extent. Here again the scope of the threat goes beyond political structure, and having all the power in the hands of one man would have made no difference. Initially, Varian actually TRIED to work things out between the nobles and Masons, so really, this is an argument FOR division of powers, as once again, having ALL the power in one hand would have prevented ANY sort of countermeasure no matter how effective or ineffective.

Thermaplug isn't even an argument against a council government - it was the King he directly convinced to microwave Gnomeregan. The Assembly is actually what prevented him from becoming king in the first place doing Light knows what sort of unspeakable things.

As to the Klaxxi, their absence and non-existence wouldn't help anything. They're still the best weapon against the Empress, regardless of the fact that they're reliant upon outsiders. This disaster is only DUE to Outsiders anyways, so it's only fair.

It's not, "they haven't completely solved the problem, therefor they're useless," it's, "if you think it's bad WITH them, how much worse would it be without them?"

Meanwhile, the absolute powers of the Orcish chieftains are what directly resulted in the second time corruption of the Warsong Clan, the alienation of most of the Horde of Kalimdor, the invasion of Gilneas and their resulting rejoining of the Alliance, and every other boneheaded thing you can assign to Garrosh. If Baine and Vol'jin were given an equal say amongst the Horde, it would be a far more efficient, unified, and sustainable entity. Now it's barreling towards civil war and self destruction, all because of ONE Orc and his insatiable war fetish.

The idea of the WarChief in and of itself is an archaic, barbaric, and foolish tradition that should have died out with drinking demon blood and working for the Legion.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Death Knight
11170

In order for a regulatory body within an orginization like the Horde to work, they would have to be able to exercise power over the Warchief. Maybe if this council of elders/wisemen was in command of the Kron'kar (or whatever the bodyguards are called) it could work, but as it standst heres been no system in any faction which has that kind of power.


Or if the players side with them. Why does everyone always forget about themselves? We play an integral part in the story, you know.

Considering this is likely what is going to happen, it seems like a large detail to overlook. If this Council of Elders has the players' support, it will work far better than any "council" system before it. We are incorruptible by our very nature. We are the selfless Heroes of the Alliance and the Horde, and we have played a major role in every conflict since the beginning of WoW.
Edited by Abal on 10/8/2012 8:43 AM PDT
Reply Quote
96 Undead Warlock
8885
Because we are incorruptible, it seems.


Almost disturbingly incorruptible if you ask me.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Death Knight
11170

Almost disturbingly incorruptible if you ask me.


Eh, I don't think we're really supposed to look too deeply into this idea. We're incorruptible because we are the players and are, therefore, the Heroes of the story. I would be quite surprised if there is actually a reason for us being so unshakable in our ideals other than that we're the protagonists.
Reply Quote
96 Undead Warlock
8885
10/08/2012 08:55 AMPosted by Abal
Eh, I don't think we're really supposed to look too deeply into this idea. We're incorruptible because we are the players and are, therefore, the Heroes of the story. I would be quite surprised if there is actually a reason for us being so unshakable in our ideals other than that we're the protagonists.


I know, I was just poking fun......
.....
....
...
..
.
It's the Old Gods, everything they have been doing is a trick, they have inbued us with their unlimited powers, to revive us from death and give us the power to overcome every challanege laid before us. They are using us to destroy all resistance on Azeroth, pretending that we are also beating their minions, so that we can foolish release them once we have served our purpose.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
If raid bosses resorted to bribing us with purples instead of fighting us, you'd probably see player characters turning on the rest of the world pretty quick. :b
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Death Knight
11170

It's the Old Gods, everything they have been doing is a trick, they have inbued us with their unlimited powers, to revive us from death and give us the power to overcome every challanege laid before us. They are using us to destroy all resistance on Azeroth, pretending that we are also beating their minions, so that we can foolish release them once we have served our purpose.


That's not entirely implausible, actually. . .

If raid bosses resorted to bribing us with purples instead of fighting us, you'd probably see player characters turning on the rest of the world pretty quick. :b


Well, yeah, but that's meta-context. We, as players, are looking for a reward. Our characters are supposed to be altruistic in addition to mercenaries and adventurers.
Reply Quote
96 Undead Warlock
8885
10/08/2012 09:47 AMPosted by Abal
Well, yeah, but that's meta-context. We, as players, are looking for a reward. Our characters are supposed to be altruistic in addition to mercenaries and adventurers.


We apparently also have very forgetful names, seeing that unless I am standing right infront of a major character, they can't remember my name :(
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Warlock
16740
10/07/2012 10:00 AMPosted by Abal
Perhaps these elders and leaders of the Horde will take a lesson from the Klaxxi and form a similar council of sorts for the Horde, one that will act as a checks-and-balances body for the Warchief. Of course, their first act will be treason, but considering the actions of the Klaxxi and the Empress' response to those actions regardless of the Klaxxi's sacred oath, I feel that this is irrelevant.


To compare is one thing, but to say they will base it on the Klaxxi behavior is another.

I don't think anyone except a few handful of adventurers experienced and sided with the Klaxxi. It's not like the Alliance and Horde are moving deep into the zone to help them. We are basically working under cover in the Dread Wastes since the mantid holds almost absolute control over the zone.

Anyways, the Klaxxi is a stabilished segment of the mantid which exists as a failsafe for this sort of situation. While Garrosh is more like improvising due the current situation.

What I expect is to see the Horde leadership to spread over all factions, instead of this self-centered Orc government. Specially because the last raid is called "The Siege of Orgrimmar", I can only see as the most reasonable result to be a whole good bunch of Orcs dead, since "half" of the Horde is going against Garrosh.

10/08/2012 08:45 AMPosted by Ximothy
Almost disturbingly incorruptible if you ask me.


Yea... Gameplay is so limited. If we use any amount of logic, the idea is that we have choices here. We would side with what we want and fight for whatever we see fit. Unfortunately, it's all designed around the Horde and Alliance... which leads us to the same story in every single expansion "Horde/Alliance wins".

Sometimes I feel I'm on a Disney movie...
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Shaman
6230
Unfortunately, it's all designed around the Horde and Alliance... which leads us to the same story in every single expansion "Horde/Alliance wins".

Sometimes I feel I'm on a Disney movie...


I don't really agree. I still feel there's plenty they could do within the "horde / alliance wins' dynamic to make it more nuanced and interesting.
Reply Quote
96 Undead Warlock
8885
10/08/2012 11:20 AMPosted by Osiria
Yea... Gameplay is so limited. If we use any amount of logic, the idea is that we have choices here. We would side with what we want and fight for whatever we see fit. Unfortunately, it's all designed around the Horde and Alliance... which leads us to the same story in every single expansion "Horde/Alliance wins".


I don't mind being forced to two factions, if they didn't keep shoving neutral factions down out throats! Espically when it's not needed, like Wrath, the Forsaken and Blood elves should've lead the Horde in Northrend, while Tirion and the Ashbringer could lead the Alliance. Or Cataclysm, Thrall and the Earthen Ring leads the Horde story, while Malfurion and the Circle leads the Alliance story.

On the subject of always winning, how much better would've the pre-events of Cata have been is Thunder Bluff and Iron Forge was taken over like in the book? Through out Cata, you would see Baine and Muradin rallying an army, see tauren and dwarven refugees everywhere, seeding sorrow and loss, while Magatha and Moria (I do like her as an Ally though) are laughing in victory, completely untouchable. Well, until the end of Cata, where we would mount an liberation force, but it would help feed the feel that the Cataclysm shook the world more than it does.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Death Knight
11170
To compare is one thing, but to say they will base it on the Klaxxi behavior is another.

I don't think anyone except a few handful of adventurers experienced and sided with the Klaxxi. It's not like the Alliance and Horde are moving deep into the zone to help them. We are basically working under cover in the Dread Wastes since the mantid holds almost absolute control over the zone.

Anyways, the Klaxxi is a stabilished segment of the mantid which exists as a failsafe for this sort of situation. While Garrosh is more like improvising due the current situation.

What I expect is to see the Horde leadership to spread over all factions, instead of this self-centered Orc government. Specially because the last raid is called "The Siege of Orgrimmar", I can only see as the most reasonable result to be a whole good bunch of Orcs dead, since "half" of the Horde is going against Garrosh.


My idea is a combination of various threads in Pandaria's plot. We, the players, will be most affected by the Pandaren's attitude of balance and harmony. We will be at the forefront of the Alliance Vanguard and the Horde Rebellion. Wrathion is specifically equipping us with Legendary weapons in order to end the War quickly and decisively. All of this leads to the players having a say in the final decision on what to do with the Horde once Garrosh is deposed. Since the players are expected to earn the trust of the Klaxxi, it is possible that we will suggest them as a new form of government. The Horde will still have a Warchief, but with a Council of Elders to check his or her power.

On the subject of always winning, how much better would've the pre-events of Cata have been is Thunder Bluff and Iron Forge was taken over like in the book? Through out Cata, you would see Baine and Muradin rallying an army, see tauren and dwarven refugees everywhere, seeding sorrow and loss, while Magatha and Moria (I do like her as an Ally though) are laughing in victory, completely untouchable. Well, until the end of Cata, where we would mount an liberation force, but it would help feed the feel that the Cataclysm shook the world more than it does.


This would have been fantastic. It makes me wonder what Cataclysm would have been like if the devs had another year of development time for it. I feel that almost all of Cataclysm's shortcomings were due to the ambitiousness of the project combined with such a short development time.

Wrath could have had a team working on Azjol'Nerub to stretch out that expansion while Cataclsym would have had another whole year to cook. /sigh for missed opportunities
Edited by Abal on 10/8/2012 12:39 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Warlock
16740
10/08/2012 11:46 AMPosted by Skytotem
I don't really agree. I still feel there's plenty they could do within the "horde / alliance wins' dynamic to make it more nuanced and interesting.


Oh, I don't mean they couldn't do it. I just means it's limited.

Take other groups and characters for instance. Illidan, Kael, Blood Elves, Naga, Night Elves, Forsaken, Arthas, Lich King, Scourge, Cult of the Damned. All of them, in WoW, were dragged into the the HordexAlliance plot, which means Orc vs. Humans plot.

Their stories began to be written in a such a fashion to fit them as Horde, Alliance or enemies of both. The stories were also written in a way to make whatever happens a matter of the Horde or the Alliance. And above all else, anyone against the Horde and Alliance loses, only if you're neutral, but only because the neutral factions tend to be on the "good side", which means both Horde and Alliance are portray as the absolute law.

And by all means, any "victory" against these factions is not really a victory, it's only the sort of "terrible stuff to motivate or make the real victory (from the Horde and Alliance) meaningful".

10/08/2012 11:48 AMPosted by Ximothy
I don't mind being forced to two factions, if they didn't keep shoving neutral factions down out throats!


I think the worst problem of those factions is their ideals considering the situation between Horde and Alliance. Both of them consider each other enemies, still everytime something dangerous is about to happen, they realize how they are on the same side, but then get back to fight one another over and over again. Not to mention the obvious contradictions within those allegiancies (like Cenarion Circle siding with the Horde that just wiped what they strive to protect).

10/08/2012 11:48 AMPosted by Ximothy
On the subject of always winning, how much better would've the pre-events of Cata have been is Thunder Bluff and Iron Forge was taken over like in the book?


Well, to summarize, I don't think the story is bad, only that when we consider the whole picture and how the story turns out, it's predictable and generic. If there's an expansion about the Legion, the Legion will lose and the Horde/Alliance will win. There will some damage caused by the Legion only to show "how the situation is dire", then they win.

The story is good and complex enough to feel like a reality by itself. How things turn out are quite poor though.

Just an example, compare how the fight goes and turns out between Horde/Alliance X Twilight's Hammer with Horde X Alliance.
Reply Quote
96 Undead Warlock
8885
10/08/2012 02:27 PMPosted by Osiria
Just an example, compare how the fight goes and turns out between Horde/Alliance X Twilight's Hammer with Horde X Alliance.


Alliance/Horde vs Hammer: We loose a few people, mostly traitors rather than actual losses. Hammer is wiped out.

Alliance vs Horde: We hack at each other, both knowing that the war will end with no difference to the number of zones each faction has. We loose commanders, most if not all are no-names who we have never met before.

In case you didn't know, I don't like the Alliance-Horde War plot, so just a quick warning I may be biased against it.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]