mistweaver mana issues "raid"

90 Pandaren Monk
7700
good day ladies and gentlemonks i come here today with a question. see in 5 mans i do ok on mana (having to drink some kola between pulls) but in raids its my tanks that are empty first and havent gotten enough mana tea procs to refill is not cool. is anyone else seeing these same issues? thanks in advance,
Chop
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90 Pandaren Monk
8815
The best bet for mana conservation is to manage your chi best you possibly can. Mistweaver tank healing is pretty awful with the exception of Enveloping Mist. What i do is use Renewing Mist on cooldown no matter what, due to it always giving a cheap chi. Also, expel harm, chi brew talent, an occasional jab, and spot healing surging mist will give you a steady inflow of chi throughout a fight, and then using chi will in turn give you more mana tea which if you glyph you can use steadily throughout the fight. I don't touch soothing mist in raids, its pretty much useless. And then of course there's the obvious, stack as much spirit as you can until you're comfortable with your mana.

Hope this helps, it's the strat i've been using for the first week of raiding, and it feels quite good hearing other healers say, "I'm OOM!" and i'm still at 50% =)
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90 Pandaren Monk
11155
The cycle of (spend mana-generate chi-spend chi-drink mana tea) is mana-negative. We do not have any cheap way to generate chi that makes this rotation mana-positive. So if you're ooming, you just need to cast smarter. There's a huge compulsion to "do something!" and fill every GCD just because we can. We can roll in, jab to get full chi, throw in a few blackout kicks, crackle jade lightning, soothing mist even when it's not needed "just in case!" &etc. But if nobody is taking significant damage, the ONLY thing you should be doing is casting renewing mist on cooldown (and if you get to full chi, use a chi dump of course).
Edited by Rachel on 10/9/2012 8:30 AM PDT
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90 Human Monk
6655
The cycle of (spend mana-generate chi-spend chi-drink mana tea) is mana-negative. We do not have any cheap way to generate chi that makes this rotation mana-positive. So if you're ooming, you just need to cast smarter. There's a huge compulsion to "do something!" and fill every GCD just because we can. We can roll in, jab to get full chi, throw in a few blackout kicks, crackle jade lightning, soothing mist even when it's not needed "just in case!" &etc. But if nobody is taking significant damage, the ONLY thing you should be doing is casting renewing mist on cooldown (and if you get to full chi, use a chi dump of course).


I'm sorry, but your advice is completely wrong. There has not been one encounter while raiding where I have not been significantly ahead of other healers in terms of HPS (with minor exception). My mana has been far superior to the other healers and I fill every single GCD.

You are right to say cast smarter. That does not mean cast less. It does mean to avoid hard-casting surging mist. This spell is the only significant mana drain that I have found. If you are stacking spirit as you should, spending chi the moment you reach 4 (because it's a waste to let yourself stay capped and then use a chi-generating ability), using your CDs (e.g. thunderbrew/chi brew), you should have no problem maintaining excellent mana and excellent HPS while filling every single GCD.

Oh - and looking at logs, melee-weaving to fill your GCDs is clearly just as viable as range-weaving to fill your GCDs.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11830
The cycle of (spend mana-generate chi-spend chi-drink mana tea) is mana-negative. We do not have any cheap way to generate chi that makes this rotation mana-positive. So if you're ooming, you just need to cast smarter. There's a huge compulsion to "do something!" and fill every GCD just because we can. We can roll in, jab to get full chi, throw in a few blackout kicks, crackle jade lightning, soothing mist even when it's not needed "just in case!" &etc. But if nobody is taking significant damage, the ONLY thing you should be doing is casting renewing mist on cooldown (and if you get to full chi, use a chi dump of course).


I'm sorry, but your advice is completely wrong. There has not been one encounter while raiding where I have not been significantly ahead of other healers in terms of HPS (with minor exception). My mana has been far superior to the other healers and I fill every single GCD.

You are right to say cast smarter. That does not mean cast less. It does mean to avoid hard-casting surging mist. This spell is the only significant mana drain that I have found. If you are stacking spirit as you should, spending chi the moment you reach 4 (because it's a waste to let yourself stay capped and then use a chi-generating ability), using your CDs (e.g. thunderbrew/chi brew), you should have no problem maintaining excellent mana and excellent HPS while filling every single GCD.

Oh - and looking at logs, melee-weaving to fill your GCDs is clearly just as viable as range-weaving to fill your GCDs.


It doesn't change the fact that this rotation is mana-negative, as he said. Congratz that you can fill every GCD and still keep your mana up, it means you're better geared than others. For people who are less-geared, filling every GCD is not advised, as the rotation *will* OOM you, since it costs more mana to generate chi than you get back from drinking the mana tea. The best thing those players can do is simply cast nothing but RM when there isn't alot of damage going on, and simply let their mana regen, until they need to start healing again.
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90 Human Monk
9145


I'm sorry, but your advice is completely wrong. There has not been one encounter while raiding where I have not been significantly ahead of other healers in terms of HPS (with minor exception). My mana has been far superior to the other healers and I fill every single GCD.

You are right to say cast smarter. That does not mean cast less. It does mean to avoid hard-casting surging mist. This spell is the only significant mana drain that I have found. If you are stacking spirit as you should, spending chi the moment you reach 4 (because it's a waste to let yourself stay capped and then use a chi-generating ability), using your CDs (e.g. thunderbrew/chi brew), you should have no problem maintaining excellent mana and excellent HPS while filling every single GCD.

Oh - and looking at logs, melee-weaving to fill your GCDs is clearly just as viable as range-weaving to fill your GCDs.


It doesn't change the fact that this rotation is mana-negative, as he said. Congratz that you can fill every GCD and still keep your mana up, it means you're better geared than others. For people who are less-geared, filling every GCD is not advised, as the rotation *will* OOM you, since it costs more mana to generate chi than you get back from drinking the mana tea. The best thing those players can do is simply cast nothing but RM when there isn't alot of damage going on, and simply let their mana regen, until they need to start healing again.


This is exactly why I 'fistweave' when no healing outside of RM is needed. Using 2 Chi to keep Serpent's Zeal up every 30sec is negligible, so the near-passive healing provided by Eminence and Eminence(Statue) is absolutely 100% invaluable.
Obviously make liberal use of Roll(Torpedo) and Transcendence to move in and out as needed.
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90 Human Monk
6655
It doesn't change the fact that this rotation is mana-negative, as he said. Congratz that you can fill every GCD and still keep your mana up, it means you're better geared than others. For people who are less-geared, filling every GCD is not advised, as the rotation *will* OOM you, since it costs more mana to generate chi than you get back from drinking the mana tea. The best thing those players can do is simply cast nothing but RM when there isn't alot of damage going on, and simply let their mana regen, until they need to start healing again.


Actually - no - not really. My first night of raiding I had less than 7k spirit (only had about half of my heroic items; in fact, my equipped ilvl is still only 460).

That night I did minimal fistweaving. However, if I was doing nothing else, I was casting soothing mist. It did not OOM me. Yes, your mana goes down (rather slowly), but it doesn't OOM you. If damage was only on tank, I'd rather use soothing mist and enveloping mist (while still hitting renewing mist off CD).

Use every GCD!
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90 Pandaren Monk
11155
10/09/2012 03:22 PMPosted by Kungfucïus
Use every GCD!
No.
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100 Pandaren Monk
7365
Spec torpedo for free heals, as well as chi brew for free chi heals and more tea. Honestly, in todays LFR I owned the healing meters with enough mana to almost do the whole fight over again, only because of how mana efficient those 2 spells are.
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100 Human Monk
9775
I would actualy like to try melee healing but I am afraid ill get all mangled up and end up not healing the person fast enough to save them if they take burst damage or else end up targeting the wrong person.

The nightmares from when i was smite/ pennance healing still haunt me lol.

Ive said this in another forum though MW dosnt seem to have meditation which seems to be why im always having to be very carefull of mana levels despite the fact I still use a heap of chi for healing.

Did meditation get taken away from other healers? Or is just how the designed the monk.
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90 Human Monk
6425
[quote]
Oh - and looking at logs, melee-weaving to fill your GCDs is clearly just as viable as range-weaving to fill your GCDs.


Melee-weaving (fistweaving) is very mana intensive. I would personally not recommend it for Raids.
Edited by Legionas on 10/13/2012 5:23 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
9920
[quote]
Oh - and looking at logs, melee-weaving to fill your GCDs is clearly just as viable as range-weaving to fill your GCDs.


Melee-weaving (fistweaving) is very mana intensive. I would personally not recommend it for Raids.


You personally don't know how to properly do it then.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17680
I feel like there's a lot of bad information being thrown around in this thread by players who just aren't as great at the class as they feel they are. This isn't to insult you, but hopefully to inform you.

We're well into the second week of raiding and chugging along fairly okay in heroic raiding and my mana, compared to other healers, is very easy to sustain. This isn't to say that I don't OOM (because I totally did during the last 5% of Heroic Feng, holy !@#$ my mana.) But it's very hard to OOM quickly if I don't have to tank heal.

In my experience, mana tea is better looked at as a tool to extend your mana bar, rather than fill it. I fistweave 99% of the time, and I spend a LOT of time jabbing and uplifting and renewing mist and spinning crane kicking, etc. I can make it through a 10 minute fight without ooming until the very end of the fight. (While topping healing, mind you: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/bi7yfdpa9jjuyz1w/sum/healingDone/?s=3790&e=4367)

The log posted at the end of that is my guilds heroic feng kill. For some reason, WoL isn't tagging things as heroic yet.

It's very important to keep your spirit high. I mean, you want well over 10k raid buffed. That's your minimum safety net. After that, you REALLY need to maximize chi generation \ consumption. This is to keep your mana afloat for as long as possible. The most effective way to do that is Jab \ Uplift and well placed TFT's. Make sure you have potions of focus on hand. They're the largest source of mana and only take you out of the fight for a little bit. The mana you get from them will get you over the mid-fight hump and allow you to finish strong. Remember. Well placed mana potions are key for healing.

If you're doing it correctly, you should be on par \ better than your other healers in terms of sustaining your mana.

It is important to note that the idea of a truly mana positive playstyle would be shamans with telluric currents in Cataclysm. They do not want players to have a truly mana positive playstyle that keeps them afloat forever. They want you to oom if you don't play right. This is why they have things that are more buffers than anything else. A simple change in how you view mana can make a world of difference for you and your raid.
Edited by Mist on 10/13/2012 8:30 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
10025
one thing ive noticed, is you can proc chi very fast off mist. i use healbot so this may not work for you click targeters.

just spam mist for a few clicks. most of the time you will get a chi proc on each click, at most it will take 6 clicks to fill your chi bar. its gonna keep channeling and burn the mana anyways.. This sounds odd, yes but it costs the same mana to cast as channel. so just re cast it like 5-6 times in rapid succession.

i personally hate the fact our main spell is channeled at such a high mana cost.
also not a very big fan of the aoe targeting usage of dizzying haze. I would rather see that as target a mob it launches at the mob and aoe hits things near it.
Edited by Tanookí on 10/13/2012 9:22 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
12500
I'd like to tag something to the end of Mist's post.

He says he melee-heals 99% of the time, but take note that he defines melee-healing as "being in melee-range to whack the boss with Jab and auto-attack, while keeping BoK buff uptime as high as possible, while *also* maintaining RM spread and dumping Chi into Uplift".

Many monks atm seem to believe melee-healing means "do nothing outside of whack the boss with melee abilities". YES, maximize your melee-range time with the boss, but do not neglect the important casted heals which you can obviously cast very easily while being in melee-range of the boss, so long as being within range of the boss isn't dangerous.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6010
Hardly any mana probs.

RM and Jab for generation.. dont use uplift glyph and use all your chi for uplift.

Big aoe dmg = Thunder Tea + uplift + SCK + Chi Brew + uplift spam.

Big tank dmg with no chi = Use surging mist +repel harm + RM or jab to gen chi fast then enveloping mist (Use Cocoon as needed)

Key to remember is you're more like a heal battery than directly topping people off one after another. Over the course of the fight you can easily be on top of healing done. As you learn your manas limits you can weave in more surging mists or SCK to push burstyness higher.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8625
This is my issue, my Mage lvl 90 has less spirit, lower item level, yet it makes 17.5k mana every 5 sec. while in combat. My Mistweaver makes 8.5k every 5 seconds while in combat. I have not looked at what my Druid and Shammy have yet. The mage tells the story of things not tweaked correct for us healing monks.
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wow... 4 month necro to add nothing to the discussion?? This is a raid thread and you are geared completely in pvp gear with not even an LFR kill to your name yet you comment on our raid mana "issues"? of course your mage is going to have higher combat regen it does so through different mechanics.. spirit provides combat regen for healers along with other mechanics (mana tea, rapture, divine plea, etc.), dps have other mechanics. Spriests for example get 2% mana back every time Vampiric Touch ticks, ele shaman have the stacking lightning shield thing (forget the name). I dont know how mages regen outside of evocation so i cant comment on the number you provided, but its not because of spirit.

MW mana is something that takes getting used to. Proper chi usage and generation along with proper mana tea usage goes a loooong way to making things easier for you. Ohmmanipame read through the thread, focus on Mist's post at #13, he makes a number of good points, the only thing I would disagree with is the spirit amount you want, I am quite comfortable at around 9k spirit focusing on getting the 3145 haste breakpoint then stacking crit for the extra mana tea. I dont think getting an extra mana tea stack is mana positive unless you get all the chi from SooM in a series of ticks one after another with no wasted mana, but the extra stacks are still extra mana that you wouldn't otherwise have.
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