I rolled a DPS class to DPS

90 Undead Death Knight
8900
10/04/2012 02:35 PMPosted by Dekkar
1. Where tank DPS is so absurd that you can actually remove a DPSer from the raid and add a healer. This is bad. Blood DK's might be an offender here, because of the massive healing as well. It remains to be seen. Prot Paladin and Prot Warrior DPS was reduced recently (single target fo pallies, AoE for warriors).


Thats usually solved by not having bad dps. Also DK tanks have MASSIVE healing because we take more damage than other tanks, its a theme thing.

10/04/2012 02:35 PMPosted by Dekkar
2. Where you can replace DPS with extra tanks (beyond 2 total tanks) and achieve extra raid DPS. This is also bad.


Wont work because tanks only build vengeance when theyre taking damage, offtanks have no vengeance stacked up and do bad damage.
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10/04/2012 02:40 PMPosted by Laina
This goes away with gear. GC even stated this during beta that Tanks are going to be dealing more damage than DPS early on and it will completely go away once people start getting gear.


Would you happen to have a link to that? (not doubting you, just asking)
Edited by Elgreezy on 10/4/2012 2:47 PM PDT
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100 Troll Mage
17020
He never said that those two scenarios would specifically happen, just that those are the only times when people should worry about it.
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100 Human Paladin
14055
This goes away with gear. GC even stated this during beta that Tanks are going to be dealing more damage than DPS early on and it will completely go away once people start getting gear.

Vengeance exists so tanks have a choice between helping do actually meaningful damage or spend resources on surviving. Doing no damage sucks, its boring and I'm glad that style of tanking is gone forever.


DPS classes are going to scale far better as well. The majority of tank damage comes from Vengeance. As we get new gear, it only helps us survive better. DPSers get new gear, and it helps them hit harder.

I already can't get anywhere close to our guild's Feral Druid or Fury Warrior. They hit SO hard and burst insanely hard too. They've started to surpass me in gear and are at around ilevel 462, while I'm at 454. They're still scaling better.

10/04/2012 02:44 PMPosted by Laina
Wont work because tanks only build vengeance when theyre taking damage, offtanks have no vengeance stacked up and do bad damage.


I know that, unless Vengeance is so absurd that excess tanks can stand in the fire and do insane DPS. This isn't the case though. Basically, only the primary tanks will deal good DPS. Any excess tanks will be doing pathetic damage.

I was only stating theoretical scenarios where it would be an issue.
Edited by Dekkar on 10/4/2012 2:50 PM PDT
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90 Undead Death Knight
8900
10/04/2012 02:46 PMPosted by Elgreezy
This goes away with gear. GC even stated this during beta that Tanks are going to be dealing more damage than DPS early on and it will completely go away once people start getting gear.


Would you happen to have a link to that? (not doubting you, just asking)


It was something said on the beta class balance board, its long buried by now.
Tank damage isn't going to improve a whole lot with gear because tanks don't get secondary dps stats.
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90 Undead Rogue
6645
I was trying to global a mage in 2s, then a rogue globaled me in a dance.

PvP Summarized?


The only instances in which Rogues are taking someone from 100% to 0% within a Dance have the property of major gear differences. This simply cannot be done if the victim has a even the Contender's PvP gear.
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90 Undead Priest
0
I am of the belief that it shouldn't take a damage dealing spec to be raid geared at level cap on mostly a single target fight just to outdamage a tank. I think it is weak design, and quite honestly, if I think Blizzard knew how to fix it without screwing something else up, they would. I just don't think they know what to do at this point.

Leveling alts sucks. Unless you are a tank. Gearing a toon sucks. Unless you are a tank. I am all for tanks doing some damage. I felt tank damage was strong in Wrath, especially on AoE pulls, but it was completely acceptable. Vengeance distorted everything, badly. What is the point of even having dps specs as an option for 95% of the game warriors, DKs, druids, monks, and paladins. They are basically useless outside of the very specific raid boss scenario.

Someone mentioned in another thread that it isn't like you could bring another tank to a 5 man and do more dps with him. No, you couldn't. What you could do is dump some of the dps for healers, and have the tank pull way bigger groups, and possibly clear the instance faster than you could with real damage dealers. Something needs to give. Or change the role of damage dealer to "guy who waits in enormous queue and tags along at the mercy of the aggro holding killing machine".
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4 Gnome Priest
0
I think it's important that DPS be very necessary, because it promotes well behaved, team-player DPS.

First you have to have the scenario that tanks or healers won't be able to put out enough damage to carry a group. And what this will mean is that the the healer will run out of mana and everyone will die unless the DPS toons in the group can put out enough DPS fast enough to kill everything before it's too late.

In this scenario, DPS becomes srs bsns, which makes it fun for a lot of DPS players. They take some pride in how well they play their role, and they know that if they don't do well, they can't finish the dungeon.

And again I think this also encourages well-behaved DPS, which tanks especially should want, since there are sometimes huge complaint explosions about DPS goofing off and frustrating tanks.

Plus all games are more fun when everyone was really needed and then everyone did a good job. Compliments and high-fives all around.

And the point of a game is to have fun, imo.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
You do realize that Heroics are a complete joke right?


Regardless of the content, it's poor game design on blizzard's part to have one role A doing role B's job better than role B can do it.


That would be a problem if you could bring 4 tanks and have them all do that sort of dps. In other words, if Role A could replace Role B, then it would be a huge, glaring issue. But you can't do that, so it isn't.

Our tank that was on 2 of the Stone Guards in MSV did almost 100k. Stunning? Yeah, maybe. But the other 2 tanks in the fight were down below everyone else. So, you can't just bring more tanks in.

There is no stacking tanks in either 5 mans or raids, and there won't be. This is not a problem.
Edited by Hyjinx on 10/4/2012 4:58 PM PDT
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70 Gnome Rogue
5975
Let me get this straight. Someone else's class is making your instances run smooth and quick and you are !@#$%ing about it, because your name isn't always on the top of some meaningless list of people who you will likely never see again?

At lest the tank is doing their job. It's an extreme rarity for me to find a random group where less than 3 people are heavily carried by everyone else.


People say things like this implying that the tanks are such good players. So good they deserve that extra damage. Uh no...They are carried by a terrible mechanic and most likely are kids with down syndrome playing whack-a-mole with buttons that light up with absolutely no thought or rotation to their attacks.

So stop saying that the tanks carry the group. Every single tank does this damage. It is either not tuned properly or every tank is just a gift from god player that has magical wow skill powers.

DK gets 75k dps, acts arrogant, tells dps that 40k isnt good enough and they suck. I look at recount and see blood boil 50% of the damage, DnD 20% of the damage, diseases 10% and 20% random abilities. SO MUCH SKILL BRO. They literally walk up and use outbreak -> spam blood boil -> use runestrike when no blood runes are up.

Single target is just as brainless, army -> ghoul -> outbreak -> dancing rune weapon -> faceroll buttonz. So hard.

So please, stop acting arrogant like you guys are just the greatest thing since sliced bread.
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4 Undead Warlock
0
I guess playing Affliction/Destro is just asking to be out-aoe'd by everyone.

I assume the tank wont mind if I pop DA and start taunting then?
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Our Main tank in a 10 main raid (currenlty 5/6) is outdpsing) the majorty of pure DPS classes, AFTER a nerf yesterday.

LOL
Edited by Spells on 10/5/2012 6:41 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Death Knight
9030
yea its very messed up atm.. people who say they are outdpsing ur tanks just go take a look at the log rankings. for the raids. u are playing with some horrible tanks if they arent on top a lot of time.

i dont really see this changing with gear once people are geared tanks can use some dps gear/enchants in raids as long as healers dont have issues.
Edited by Snat on 10/5/2012 7:27 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
14055
10/05/2012 07:27 AMPosted by Snat
i dont really see this changing with gear once people are geared tanks can use some dps gear/enchants in raids as long as healers dont have issues.


Wearing DPS gear in heroic raids as a tank will only cause you die, and is completely irresponsible.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
10/05/2012 07:27 AMPosted by Snat
yea its very messed up atm.. people who say they are outdpsing ur tanks just go take a look at the log rankings. for the raids. u are playing with some horrible tanks if they arent on top a lot of time.


It doesn't matter. First, in raids the tank can't "carry" the raid. Second, I point out again that you can't substitute in more tanks.

Think of it this way - you aren't competing for spots with that tank who is taking hits for the raid, so you shouldn't care about the dps he's doing.
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90 Draenei Paladin
6500
10/05/2012 08:09 AMPosted by Hyjinx
yea its very messed up atm.. people who say they are outdpsing ur tanks just go take a look at the log rankings. for the raids. u are playing with some horrible tanks if they arent on top a lot of time.


It doesn't matter. First, in raids the tank can't "carry" the raid. Second, I point out again that you can't substitute in more tanks.

Think of it this way - you aren't competing for spots with that tank who is taking hits for the raid, so you shouldn't care about the dps he's doing.


In terms of whether a raid can be completed and the comp it will take to do so, this makes all the sense in the world.

However, it does elevate the tank to a bit of a celebrity status that it would not otherwise have. The tank is already the most important person in the raid as far as positioning, gear and CD usage. They don't need to top meters as well.
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90 Worgen Warrior
8735
yea its very messed up atm.. people who say they are outdpsing ur tanks just go take a look at the log rankings. for the raids. u are playing with some horrible tanks if they arent on top a lot of time.


It doesn't matter. First, in raids the tank can't "carry" the raid. Second, I point out again that you can't substitute in more tanks.

Think of it this way - you aren't competing for spots with that tank who is taking hits for the raid, so you shouldn't care about the dps he's doing.


It's backwards design when one spec can perform two roles at the same time,better than one spec can perform one role.
Edited by Bloodletters on 10/5/2012 9:17 AM PDT
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27 Night Elf Druid
16875
Turn off Skada/Recount.

Issue fixed. This is a fun expansion. The damage doesn't matter.

Grow up.


it does to many ,many people.it has nothng do with being "grown up"
you get what you want out the xpac, good for you.others may want something different,and look at things in a different light.

you telling people to "grow up" because they dont take the same approach to the game as you do.....well pot meet kettle, there son.........
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1 Blood Elf Rogue
0


It's backwards design when one spec can perform two roles at the same time,better than one spec can perform one role.


No, not really.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
However, it does elevate the tank to a bit of a celebrity status that it would not otherwise have. The tank is already the most important person in the raid as far as positioning, gear and CD usage. They don't need to top meters as well.


Meters are essentially epeen. You want to beat the people you're competing against. You're not competing against the tank, though, so his dps is irrelevant except insofar as it helps kill the boss... and if it does help, that's GOOD, not bad.

10/05/2012 09:16 AMPosted by Bloodletters


It doesn't matter. First, in raids the tank can't "carry" the raid. Second, I point out again that you can't substitute in more tanks.

Think of it this way - you aren't competing for spots with that tank who is taking hits for the raid, so you shouldn't care about the dps he's doing.


It's backwards design when one spec can perform two roles at the same time,better than one spec can perform one role.


It takes a specific situation for the tank to be better. You can't just bring tanks and have them perform 2 roles.
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