Zen Sphere Hotfix - Analysis & Suggestion

90 Human Monk
6655
Many of you may not have realized, but Zen Sphere was hotfixed last night. The necessity of the fix is debatable. Nonetheless, I believe that this fix overtuned Zen Sphere so much that, relative to Chi Burst, it is not at all a compelling choice.

To prove this, I'm gonig to use data from my guilds attempts at Feng the Accursed 25M normal - the attempts contain data both pre-hotfix and post-hotfix. It is using the data assuming no overhealing and taking my personal crit into account in order to ensure accuracy.

Pre-Hotfix Zen Sphere: 45.9k Heals x 25 @ 4 chi = 289.875k Heals/Chi ~ 382.5k HPS (2 globals)
Post-Hotfix Zen Sphere: 11.6 Heals x 25 @ 4 chi = 72.5k Heals/Chi ~ 96.7k HPS (2 globals)
Chi Burst: 11.9k Heals x 25 @ 2 chi = 148.75k Heal/Chi ~ 198.3k HPS (1 global)
Uplift: 26.2k Heals x 8 @ 2 chi = 104.8k Heal/Chi ~ 139.7k HPS (1 global)
Spinning Crane Kick (SCK): 2.76k x 25 @ .75 sec / tick = 92.0k HPS

SCK + Rushing Jade Wind: 1.5 * 2.76k x 25 @ .75 sec / tick = 138.0k HPSk = 138.0k HPS
As you can see, the HPS of the new Zen Sphere is extremely low. This leaves mistweaver monks with only one choice - Chi Burst. One might say to nerf Chi Burst inline with Zen Sphere, but then neither would be used. In fact, Uplift is already very compelling if up on more than 10 targets (something very easy to do every 45 seconds via Thunderbrew). I don't know if this is a good thing - healers should be rewarded for making appropriate spell selections. Uplift should be the favorite in terms of HPS when spread out, but Chi Burst / Zen Sphere should be the favorite Chi spender when stacked - it makes healing a bit more interesting. Also, Rushing Jade Wind should remain inline with Chi Burst and Zen Sphere for stacked situations.

SUGGESTION: Undo the hotfix to Zen Sphere. If the stacked healing of monks is overtuned, I might suggest making a much smaller reduction to Zen Sphere / Chi Burst / Rushing Jade Wind. But be careful - they need to remain compelling options for stacked healing - they should not be overtaken by Uplift.

Pre-Hotfix Zen Sphere: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-l1y8xtzmnjkpljg2/details/20/?s=5482&e=5614
Post-Hotfix Zen Sphere: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-4u18xe84yfa0pr7x/details/26/?s=9538&e=9857
Chi Burst: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-4u18xe84yfa0pr7x/details/26/?s=11465&e=11889

For the other healers that may read this and encourage a nerf, please bear in mind that the spells themselves are not spammable. They require some thought and planning in order to use effectively - we are required to use several other low HPS spells in order to build the chi to use these.

Oh, and I know it looks like a lot of wipes on Feng, but we had some really bad luck on the encounter bugging out in various phases. :(
Edited by Kungfucïus on 10/6/2012 11:52 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
9015
I was wondering about that. I went from 75-80k HPS to 45k HPS overnight and my raid leader was yelling at me saying I was slacking. Zen sphere hot fix would explain it, detonate went from top heal to like 5th or 6th. Oh well, chi burst it is.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Druid
0
How is this a hotfix and not just a nerf? Was there some mechanic broken or incorrect applying numbers?
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
6655
Yeah I know, my best attempt had me at 105k HPS before we wiped. Then it dropped to 65-75k rather suddenly. :(

From the numbers you are receiving and seeing that you outgear me, I think you could optimize it even more (I know you didn't ask), but if you are interested, let me make a couple suggestions:

-Favor gear with more spirit; although my ilvl is lower, my spirit is significantly higher.
-You are missing the 1350 haste breakpoint to receive an extra tick of renewing mist; this will significantly increase your HPS
-Consider rushing jade wind (RJW) for Feng; spinning crane kick while RJW is active should be one of your top performing HPS spells so long as everyone is stacked
-Get in the habit of using renewing mist off CD no matter what
-Get in the habit of using thunder brew as often as possible, no matter what, so long as 8-10 targets already have renewing mist; this sets your uplifts to be ridiculously strong.
-While doing all this, in Feng particularly, make sure to have 4 chi before any AOE damage phase; use your chi abilities and then chi brew, re-use the chi abilities (the burst is incredible)

Oh, and for Chi Burst to work as effectively, you may need to pester your raid to be more tightly stacked (be sure to target the boss or the tank that is adjacent to the boss but away from raid). The AOE radius of chi burst is quite tight.
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
6655
10/05/2012 01:12 PMPosted by Gamon
How is this a hotfix and not just a nerf? Was there some mechanic broken or incorrect applying numbers?


It's possible that it was a nerf, though it wouldn't make sense necessarily. Many people thought that the AOE diminishing returns weren't working properly on Zen: Sphere. Thus, if it was bugging, then you could consider it a hotfix.

After reflecting on it more, I think they should restore Zen: Sphere to its previous state. However, I believe they should reduce its overall healing by 50% (or perhaps slightly more than 50%) and its chi cost by 50%. This will prevent monks from being able to frontload huge healing spikes - the heals will be spread out across many more global cooldowns, thereby giving other healers the opportunity to heal the AOE damage.

The attempt where I received 105k HPS, my Zen: Sphere overhealing was only 23.5%. That tells me that I got to the AOE heals far before the other classes had the chance to get to them. Spreading the healing over more GCDs would probably make it properly tuned and again viable relative to Chi Burst.
Edited by Kungfucïus on 10/5/2012 1:18 PM PDT
Reply Quote
1 Gnome Warlock
0
"The necessity of the fix is debatable."

LOL.

Good one.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
2490
Why is blizzard !@#$ing over monks already? gtfo
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Monk
13525
Wait you're a healer. Nevermind!
Edited by Areduun on 10/6/2012 8:29 AM PDT
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
5145
Well that sucks I liked zen sphere in beta. It just doesn't have much use in dungeons.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Monk
7640
This fix was needed because in PVP MW monks were lasting 3-5 seconds against BM Hunters and Arms warriors and this was not intended.
Edited by Ruxxian on 10/6/2012 10:52 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
7815
I'm still using Chi Wave.

I guess I'm doing it wrong making choices based on my likes and dislikes.

I refuse to use Chi Burst >:(
Reply Quote
90 Troll Warlock
11210
I refuse to use Chi Burst >:(


=(

I've been using Burst since I started my Monk (level 88 now), and I adore the ability. Forces me to keep the party positions in mind (which is good), and it straight up feels like bowling for heals when I do it right.
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
8880
10/06/2012 05:42 PMPosted by Daerius
I refuse to use Chi Burst >:(


=(

I've been using Burst since I started my Monk (level 88 now), and I adore the ability. Forces me to keep the party positions in mind (which is good), and it straight up feels like bowling for heals when I do it right.


HADOUKEN!!1

I'm sorry did I miss something?
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Monk
17010
The hotfix was necessary in so many ways. Zen Sphere was not at all intended to have no AOE cap.

When we were testing on beta, I could have an 80k heal on 25 people in two GCD's. That got nixed -really- fast because it absolutely broke the class to the point where it was pointless to have anyone else attempting to AOE heal. They fixed this.

If you look at any mistweaver abusing the bug before the fix, they were doing RIDICULOUS amounts of healing. It made using other spells absolutely pointless. It entirely destroyed 90% of our toolkit. It was 100% necessary to hotfix it, this is not debatable. There is a problem when Brewmasters are outhealing actual healers.

This does not mean that Zen Sphere is still useless. Talents are not meant to be useful for every spec all the time in every situation. There may yet be times where Mistweavers may want Zen Sphere. Zen Sphere will remain a great spell for Brewmasters. Windwalkers don't like anything in that tier so it's irrelevant.

This is just covering PVE usage. God knows what was going on in PvP.

There does not need to be a revert of the hotfix. Nothing actually needs to be changed in the current incarnation of mistweaver. Asking for class-breaking bugs to be put back is mind-boggling. Please don't act like it's difficult to use Zen Sphere either. Nothing is hard about generating and spending chi, especially if you cheese it with chi brew
Edited by Mist on 10/6/2012 6:54 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
14255
^ couldn't say it any better than Mist did. Zen sphere was completely broken and unintended. It was fixed, and it's hopefully never coming back (again).
Reply Quote
90 Troll Warlock
11210
Well, based on the figures in the OP, it might have been a bit overnerfed. As it stands now, there's not much reason at all to grab Zen Sphere. Anything it could do, another spell could do better.

Keep in mind that the real competitor here is Uplift. Unless the Chi talents have superior HPS and/or HPC compared to Uplift, there'll be no real reason to ever use them. Right now, Chi Burst exceeds Uplift on HPS and HPC by ~42%, at the cost of positioning requirements. Zen Sphere has much laxer positioning requirements (stacking is more common and easier to manage than being in a line), but still more stringent than Uplift. Therefore it should heal more than Uplift by somewhere in between. Given the currently nerfed values, this means that a buff from current values of 73.5% (net nerf of 65.3% from original, rather than the 80% nerf in place right now) would place is right between Chi Burst and Uplift in terms of both HPS and HPC (so ~20% better than Uplift on both, and ~20% worse than Chi Burst). This would mean that Uplift would be the heal of choice when 4-12ish people need healed (or when the raid is spread out), with Zen Sphere being the heal of choice if the raid is stacked and needs blanket healing, and Chi Burst being the heal of choice if the raid is stacked very tightly or in a line, and needs blanket healing.

On a side note, OP, your calculates for HPS are rather off. A GCD is 1.5 seconds. It looks like what you did was took the healing/chi figure and divided by the number of globals consumed, which isn't really a number that means anything at all (also, you mis-typed the Chi Burst HPC, and SCK has a 0.75 second tick). Lastly, I reduced your Uplift target count to 8, since 10 is only possible with TFT. Given your original figures, the proper HPS numbers should be:

Pre-Hotfix Zen Sphere: 45.9k Heals x 25 @ 4 chi = 289.875k Heals/Chi ~ 382.5k HPS (2 globals)
Post-Hotfix Zen Sphere: 11.6 Heals x 25 @ 4 chi = 72.5k Heals/Chi ~ 96.7k HPS (2 globals)
Chi Burst: 11.9k Heals x 25 @ 2 chi = 148.75k Heal/Chi ~ 198.3k HPS (1 global)
Uplift: 26.2k Heals x 10 @ 2 chi = 104.8k Heal/Chi ~ 139.7k HPS (1 global)
Spinning Crane Kick (SCK): 2.76k x 25 @ .75 sec / tick = 92.0k HPS
SCK + Rushing Jade Wind: 1.5 * 2.76k x 25 @ .75 sec / tick = 138.0k HPS
Edited by Daerius on 10/6/2012 10:06 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
8075
Chi Burst only hits 7 targets AFAIK

Unless MW's get something special for it that I'm not aware of. I have yet to go healing spec.

Edit: scratch all that. I confused Chi Burst with Chi Wave.
Edited by Kenjiryu on 10/6/2012 10:45 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
6285
healers use chi burst? idk I am loving chi wave
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
8075
10/06/2012 10:36 PMPosted by Breezebender
healers use chi burst? idk I am loving chi wave


Er wait the wording is screwed up Chi Burst is the move that goes in a path in front of you healing everyone, this has no target limit so my apologies.

Chi WAVE is the one that jumps from target to target with a cap on how many it can hit. And yes, Chi Burst is supposedly better than Chi Wave for MW's.

However for BM's and WW's I find Chi Wave to be incredible vs Zen Sphere which is absolute garbage (who is Zen Sphere for anyway? Especially after this nerf)

Here's how it breaks down for me as a Brewmaster:

Chi Wave: ticks on average 4 times on me, healing me for 16,000 each time, going up significantly with Vengeance. Baseline however it will heal me for approx 64k per cast 1v1.

Zen Sphere: ticks every 2 seconds for 16 seconds, healing me a total of 8 times for a whopping 5k each tick. This comes out to be 40k healed over 16 seconds. Zen Sphere detonation is a waste of chi.

Comparison:

Chi Wave - 64k over 8 seconds
Zen Sphere - 20k over 8 seconds

Clear winner here for BM/WW's.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Warlock
11210
10/06/2012 10:44 PMPosted by Kenjiryu
Chi Wave: ticks on average 4 times on me, healing me for 16,000 each time, going up significantly with Vengeance. Baseline however it will heal me for approx 64k per cast 1v1.


This only applies to soloing. When you're in a group, Chi Wave is bugged as hell. If it bounces from an enemy to an ally (other than you), it'll stop dead, no more bounces, regardless of how many target's it's already hit.

Soloing, ya, Chi Wave is amazing for BMs and WWs. Groups, not so much. On the healing side, I'm a *major* advocate of Chi Burst, it has amazing potential if you're good at lining up the shots.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]