Stone Guard is way too difficult

90 Dwarf Death Knight
17655
Well its a multitude of problems number 1 being blizzard is a business.

As a business they need to make money.

Players have shown they will get better a bit, then after that they just quit rather than get any better than that.

They left in enough numbers to scare blizzard.

Blizzard becomes more accomodating, it then becomes easier to wait for nerfs than to get better.

ITs just the way the game is now, you cant go back, if blizzard tried the players would just leave in droves because they know blizzard would cave.


Seriously, STOP CALLING CASUALS BAD.
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Since this is coming out this week im going to use it.

X-com was a great game back in the 90's the new one coming out this week is really nothing like it.

What worked 8 or even 4 years ago is not what works now.

oh sure some MMO's failed, some of them were just bad, but most survived just fine in their niche.

Oh and guess what the casual market has SOLIDLY shown it will come back even after leaving given enough incentive.

Blizzard does not need constant subscription from them, they dont need them subscribed and playing every minute of every day for an entire expansion. If they get 8-10 months every two years, THEY ARE DOING GREAT.

But to try to fix this, what they are doing is some gating, including gating hardcores, more casual stuff (pets/farm), more content faster, making content more accesible faster.

They are going to try their hardest to keep them as much as possible because even only paying 1/3 of the time the casuals are still going to bring in alot more revenue than the hardcores.

Way off track now.

Wait till tuesday, let me try the LFR version and Ill report how it is, Ill be as honest as possible and we will see from there how it works.
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Well its a multitude of problems number 1 being blizzard is a business.

As a business they need to make money.

Players have shown they will get better a bit, then after that they just quit rather than get any better than that.

They left in enough numbers to scare blizzard.

Blizzard becomes more accomodating, it then becomes easier to wait for nerfs than to get better.

ITs just the way the game is now, you cant go back, if blizzard tried the players would just leave in droves because they know blizzard would cave.


Seriously, STOP CALLING CASUALS BAD.


Its NOT a matter of bad good, ugly or green.

If a parent gives a cookie everytime a kid screams, the kid is going to learn screaming=cookies.

Blizzard has shown every time players quit, they nerf everything in sight.

To even think of unteaching that now would be pointless, there is NO HEAPING WAY activision would let them take the stream of losses over 2-4 year to unteach it.

The only way to convince them to even consider this would be a mass exodus of hardcores. Sorry Robo, you leaving isnt enough.
Edited by Sarosha on 10/6/2012 12:11 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17655
10/06/2012 12:07 PMPosted by Sarosha
To even think of unteaching that now would be pointless, there is NO HEAPING WAY activision would let them take the stream of losses over 2-4 year to unteach it.


And que the "see easy heroics buffered subs" argument from you.
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10/06/2012 12:10 PMPosted by Postonforums
To even think of unteaching that now would be pointless, there is NO HEAPING WAY activision would let them take the stream of losses over 2-4 year to unteach it.


And que the "see easy heroics buffered subs" argument from you.


Actually no...

it wouldnt increase subs, it helps retain subs.

Shinies increases subs, pets, farms, quests, zones, etc
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8800
10/05/2012 11:34 PMPosted by Sarosha
Go look at the journal, only a few mechanics are missing.


If you can ignore the mechanic, it's the same as not being there.

LFR should let you wipe, but they have also said they do not want a random group wiping more than 3-5 times. Because then people will stop running it, this is what they discovered from cata heroics.

So how do you let them wipe without it becoming a wipefest


Ds was fine. I can count on one hand the number of times i've wiped more than 3 times, and that was with the really bad luck of getting 5 tanks, in a row, who could not handle fading light.

It looks exactly right

If you let the overload happen at 120k damage the healers will stress but will probably recover which means the tanks are going to want to do the fight correctly.

On 10n if you mess it, you take 250k which will probably wipe the group.

It looks EXACTLY right, the tanks will want to do the fight right,, but the healers will probably recover it if they dont.


So, what's going to happens is that the overload will go off, like Ele bolt on DW, and healers will heal through it. (and if it really does less damage than bolt, that's just...wrong).

That also puts it more forgiving than ultraxion and Dw as far as tanks messing up. I will give some leeway if the mechanic is actually harder, since i haven't done the fight.

10/06/2012 12:05 PMPosted by Sarosha
If they get 8-10 months every two years, THEY ARE DOING GREAT.


The problem is, they'll always want more. If doing great was fine, we wouldn't have had nerfs in the first place.
Edited by Arianity on 10/6/2012 12:27 PM PDT
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The mechanic looks hard till you get it, then easy after that.

LFR needs leeway for messups and recover.

Pass/fail doesnt work in lfr.

DS was generally a bit too easy other than madness, its not that madness was hard, it was that it really made AFK dps a problem.

Nerfs are needed, in the modern MMO, everyone has to be able to play or they move on. I do think that nerfs does to some extant lead to unsub till nerfed then come play, but Im not sure there is a perfect system.
Edited by Sarosha on 10/6/2012 12:30 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17655
Nerfs are needed, in the modern MMO, everyone has to be able to play or they move on. I do think that nerfs does to some extant lead to unsub till nerfed then come play, but Im not sure there is a perfect system.


Not really, nerfs take away your Base, the nerf crowd leave after finishing, or not finishing.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10550
10/06/2012 12:28 PMPosted by Sarosha
Nerfs are needed, in the modern MMO, everyone has to be able to play or they move on.


Except if it's too easy, they'll move on anyways after they've completed it. Bandaid fixes to appease the "chew and screw" crowd don't work in the long run in regards to raiding.

This is why we have varying levels of difficulty in the first place... it's something for everyone. This is why across the board nerfs are ridiculous. Minor tweaks to boss encounters? Sure! But, there's zero point in an across the board nerfs to normal/heroic when we also have LFR.

I understand the whole "Blizzard is a business blahblahblah" mantra, but that doesn't excuse it nor does it make it "ok", imo. Personal growth and learning isn't something to be shunned. I don't understand why some people hate the idea of it.
Edited by Sherbear on 10/6/2012 2:03 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
14065
Been wiping on this for a while now, and we kinda gave up on it because our tanks can't see the energy bars of each individual boss to know who's going to overlord way before it does, so they know who to keep seperate and who to keep in a pair (10 man).

We've pretty much given up on it until we get some gear through LFR.


Well, the best we could do was get 25-man Stone Guard to about 45%ish with 23 people, 4 or 5 of whom were literally fresh 90's (aka MAYBE 430 ilvl, lol). Hopefully with a full, properly geared group we can down it with ease next week - tanks have the fight down now so shouldn't be an issue.
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I think thats the idea between split content patches and gating.

The way the progressive nerfs are going to work this time is

MV probably start about 2 months in
Heart of fear 1 month later
Terrace 1 month after that

Basically Im guessing Terrace will be in the very low nerf values when the next tier comes out, so the less progressed players wont be done with it by the time Tier 15 comes in.

When tier 15 comes in, assuming its 12 bosses, it would be 3 4 boss wings even if its one raid.

Again split nerfs, gating of some sort.

This is a guess mind you but it makes sens with what they have been saying about new progression, LFR, progressive nerfs.

Ill break it down a bit simpler, the nerfs should just be hitting as the casual players are about half geared in LFR so it will look something like this.

Heroic-Mv LFR-MV normal and heart LFR-Heart normal and Terrace LFR-Heart Normal and tier 15 LFR1-Tier 15 normal1 and tier 15LFR2, etc

Its going to be very hard for the casual player to run out of things to do.

Again IM not 100% sure of this, but from everything thats been posted this looks exactly what they are thinking.
Edited by Sarosha on 10/6/2012 2:17 PM PDT
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Has a good video guide been posted yet?
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17655
10/06/2012 02:17 PMPosted by Xaruko
You can't generalize that the nerf crowd leaves all the while claiming that people didn't leave in tier 11 because it was too hard.


I thought we were past this back and forth argument, but you keep bringing up.

10/06/2012 02:17 PMPosted by Xaruko
It's why some single RPG's of this year even describe one difficulty setting they offer, in the game, as "an interactive story mode."


Yet games like Dark Souls end up competing for game of the year.

WoW has that "story mode" you call it, in LFR, don't over nerf normals and heroics because of the Badual audience.

The Casuals enjoy progressing through the game still, it's the baduals who spend more time asking for nerfs than learning bosses.
Edited by Postonforums on 10/6/2012 2:39 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
10550
10/06/2012 02:17 PMPosted by Xaruko
Not in a game, at least not to the extent that some hardcores want it. Like I have said before, WoW is an evening of drinks and darts for many people. Not a puzzle.


Which is more than fine, but I disagree that learning shouldn't be part of the game at higher levels. That's why we have varying degrees of difficulty in raiding. Much like you have your fun-at-the-bar darts and your professional tournaments. I just believe that for players wanting to take that extra step upwards, it should require some modicum of effort and learning. Even though the "nerf !@#$%s" are not very prevalent, they do seem to have multiplied since that last expansion. It's those types that bother me.

Ill break it down a bit simpler, the nerfs should just be hitting as the casual players are about half geared in LFR so it will look something like this.

Heroic-Mv LFR-MV normal and heart LFR-Heart normal and Terrace LFR-Heart Normal and tier 15 LFR1-Tier 15 normal1 and tier 15LFR2, etc


Or I'm guessing they'll start nerfs based on when they believe guilds will be "stuck" on content and need that extra push. At least that's how a blue presented the nerfs to DS. Hard to say if they'll fluctuate from that.
Edited by Sherbear on 10/6/2012 2:47 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12780
If they want LFR to be a bridge to raiding rather than loot distribution (Which they don't), then they need to put more effort into the teaching.

Every unmitigated overload should leave a 90 second debuff on the raid that deals increasingly more damage for each one that gets off. Sure, let it start at 150k, but the next one does 175k, then 200k. Let it cap at 250k. Then if the raid finally wipes to overload, Blizzard needs to put up a message of some kind in the chat log of each player explaining exactly what went on and how to fix it.

This way it doesn't require perfect execution, and *GASP* learning might happen in LFR.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8800
10/06/2012 02:17 PMPosted by Xaruko
n most facets of life I would agree with you. Learning and growth should be encouraged. Not in a game, at least not to the extent that some hardcores want it. Like I have said before, WoW is an evening of drinks and darts for many people. Not a puzzle. Gaming companies are really starting to recognize this audience now. It's why some single RPG's of this year even describe one difficulty setting they offer, in the game, as "an interactive story mode."


I can't think of many succesful games out there, that don't

a) get harder/more complex as you play

b) have multiple difficulties.

The only difference in this genre is getting the same rewards/having trouble making as many modes as other games.
Edited by Arianity on 10/6/2012 3:10 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17655
Nerfs should start when Tier 15 is released, as old content should be nerfed.

But likely, it'll require raiding on halloween to beat nerfs

10/06/2012 02:46 PMPosted by Sherbear
Or I'm guessing they'll start nerfs based on when they believe guilds will be "stuck" on content and need that extra push. At least that's how a blue presented the nerfs to DS. Hard to say if they'll fluctuate from that.


Ya... Hand on Dial nerfing, definitely played out as lying to the community.
Edited by Postonforums on 10/6/2012 3:21 PM PDT
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3 Undead Priest
0
Sorry if this is too off-topic, or has already been answered, but why are the raids being nerfed at all now that we have LFR? Will both normal and heroic modes be nerfed?
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90 Human Death Knight
12195
10/06/2012 03:31 PMPosted by Qrea
Sorry if this is too off-topic, or has already been answered, but why are the raids being nerfed at all now that we have LFR? Will both normal and heroic modes be nerfed?


Of course, baduals need the gear they feel they're entitled to as well!
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