Why Aren't People Up in Arms...

85 Undead Rogue
3220


Only if Anduin is trying to take over the world, like the Lich King was.

So far, it looks like he isn't.


I agree.
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90 Human Warrior
13500
Tricking someone to get out of being sent back home =/= Mind controlling someone for a nefarious end.

Just because one deed is similar to another doesn't mean it is the same.

Stealing is wrong. Stealing to feed your desperately hungry family is not necessarily wrong.

In this instance it's not evil when the Alliance does it because the Alliance is not doing it for an evil reason.
Edited by Mordstreich on 10/3/2012 1:44 PM PDT
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85 Human Mage
4460
10/03/2012 01:43 PMPosted by Mordstreich
Tricking someone to get out of being sent back home =/= Mind controlling someone for a nefarious end.


This is a case of, "Guns are evil, they kill people."

It'd be pointless to say, "Guns don't kill people. People with guns kill people." Too many people are willing to cry out foul and double-standard.
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90 Orc Warrior
10875
Only if Anduin is trying to take over the world, like the Lich King was.

So far, it looks like he isn't.


until he falls to old god corruption and commits the Anduin Heresy
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85 Undead Rogue
3220


This is a case of, "Guns are evil, they kill people."

It'd be pointless to say, "Guns don't kill people. People with guns kill people." Too many people are willing to cry out foul and double-standard.


It's double standard when people start using the same arguement one group used to protect their own faction when they were vehemantly against it previously.
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90 Human Warrior
13500
If Anduin was mindcontrolling dead Horde soldiers and using them to overrun Horde bases, it would be a double standard then.

But he's not.

Besides, we know Sylvanas isn't using mind control right now so this entire discussion is moot.
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85 Undead Rogue
3220
If Anduin was mindcontrolling dead Horde soldiers and using them to overrun Horde bases, it would be a double standard then.

But he's not.

Besides, we know Sylvanas isn't using mind control right now so this entire discussion is moot.


The question of double standard isn't moot because the standard either still exists or it was doubled back on.
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90 Human Warrior
13500
Then I pretty much refuted the "double standard" with the first portion of my post.
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85 Undead Rogue
3220
10/03/2012 02:20 PMPosted by Mordstreich
Then I pretty much refuted the "double standard" with the first portion of my post.


i don't see how. You took a very specific situation and arbitraril labeled it as evil without explaining why but the origional arguement in the doublestandard case was that MC is wrong. Point blank, cut and dry.

So, you're say MCing an enemy into killing themselves is bad. But MC in and of itself is not evil. But the double standard was that MC was evil, no matter if Sylvanas uses it to preserve herself, her people, fight her enemy, anything. it was catogorized as the same as the LK because the act of taking someones free will was the evil deed. How it was used was arbitrary.
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90 Human Warrior
13500
If Sylvanas was mind controlling the dead it would be to conquer the world (or the living) and/or for revenge and it would be a permanent will bending experience, and as we can see she may very well be in the process of permanently breaking someone to her will.

Anduin mind controlled a dwarf for a brief period so that he could explore the Vale of Eternal Blossoms and study its healing powers, healing powers that he believes can heal the whole of Azeroth. The Dwarf is currently fine and in control of himself now.

Sylvanas is not mind controlling for this reason, nor would she ever, it's not her bag.

I'm also not arguing from the point Mind Control is necessarily evil. It can be, depending on how it is used. The way Anduin used it is grey at worst.

This would be like saying if Anduin physically shoved the Dwarf away and ran it would be on the same level as Anduin brutally slaughtering the Dwarf. It does not follow.
Edited by Mordstreich on 10/3/2012 2:39 PM PDT
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85 Undead Rogue
3220
If Sylvanas was mind controlling the dead it would be to conquer the world (or the living) and/or for revenge and it would be a permanent will bending experience, and as we can see she may very well be in the process of permanently breaking someone to her will.

Anduin mind controlled a dwarf for a brief period so that he could explore the Vale of Eternal Blossoms and study its healing powers, healing powers that he believes can heal the whole of Azeroth. The Dwarf is currently fine and in control of himself now.

Sylvanas is not mind controlling for this reason, nor would she ever, it's not her bag.

I'm also not arguing from the point Mind Control is necessarily evil. It can be, depending on how it is used. The way Anduin used it is grey at worst.

This would be like saying if Anduin physically shoved the Dwarf away and ran it would be on the same level as Anduin brutally slaughtering the Dwarf. It does not follow.


if sylvanas had been MCing anyone it doesn't mean she was automatically trying to conquor the world or the living.

I can see you are not of the position that MC is evil but many are. Or, at least they were. They would be the ones guilty of the double standard by saying that MC was the problem. But, I suspect it will seldom be an issue again. if it is, it will probably quicly get squashed. or, they will change the goal post (Not that you have) to your position that it's okay if done with good intentions. But that will be a whole other 26 page conversation, i'm sure.
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90 Human Warlock
12365
10/03/2012 02:38 PMPosted by Mordstreich
This would be like saying if Anduin physically shoved the Dwarf away and ran it would be on the same level as Anduin brutally slaughtering the Dwarf


I think there are people who would argue this.
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85 Undead Rogue
3220


I think there are people who would argue this.


....and basically have. I think this was the reason for the OP's post.
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90 Orc Warrior
10875
10/03/2012 02:38 PMPosted by Mordstreich
This would be like saying if Anduin physically shoved the Dwarf away and ran it would be on the same level as Anduin brutally slaughtering the Dwarf. It does not follow.


I'm sorry but it wouldn't be like that

It wouldn't be like that at all
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90 Human Warrior
13500
I'm sorry but it wouldn't be like that

It wouldn't be like that at all


Using Mind control to permanently break someone to your will and remove any semblance of a person vs temporarily disabling someone trying to take you.

Slaughtering someone and completely removing their life vs temporarily shoving someone trying to take you.

As I was saying I'm not accusing the Horde of doing such a thing, because they as of yet have not (with the exception of the Blood elf priest erasing dissenters in Silvermoon) because we know Sylvanas was not using Mind Control on the Forsaken, though it's possible she will be using it on the Blood elf DK who's name escapes me right now.
Edited by Mordstreich on 10/3/2012 3:20 PM PDT
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90 Undead Hunter
3775
Anduin will GET PAINTED RED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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90 Orc Warrior
10875
the problem is hes arguing the simple act of mind control which people have argued is evil. You are including acts in addition to the mind control. You are arguing different things

Even in your comparison you are comparing mind control vs. mind control and shoving vs. killing. And not even killing, not even slaughtering, but brutally slaughtering
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90 Human Warrior
13500
the problem is hes arguing the simple act of mind control which people have argued is evil. You are including acts in addition to the mind control. You are arguing different things


As I realized a bit ago.

There may be a double standard to some posters, but I hardly pay attention to anything Vyrin posts.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
10/03/2012 11:37 AMPosted by Abaan
Sylvanas doesn't control the Forsaken with Mind Control. They all have free will, and can choose whatever path they like after being raised. They can serve her or not.


No, they can't. They're "frenzied" and don't get a choice until long after their choices would actually have any meaning.
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85 Human Mage
4460
Well, I think a few points need to be addressed.

Mind Control is derived from the Shadow Arts, the darker side of faith for humanity. This gives it a negative connotation.

However, the difference in the cases of Sylvanas, the Lich King, and Anduin, is not only the purpose or the intent, but the residual damage and the duration. The Lich King damned the people he raised, inflicting harm on their souls, twisting them into entirely different people, putting them through the stress of undeath, and -then- stripped them of their free will with the intent that it should be permanent. Sylvanas doesn't mind control, but she employs undeath and uses the traumatic experience of undeath to manipulate the actions of others, virtually robbing them of their free will.

Anduin's actions did not permanently harm anyone, nor was the duration of the Mind Control permanent or meant to be permanent. Thus, the types of mind control or manipulation of free will is no where near the same level as what Anduin employed.

Does that make his actions, 'Acceptable,' or, 'Good?' Not in the slightest. It was still Shadow Magic, and it still robbed that dwarf of his free will, even if only for a few seconds. However, I don't believe it can be dubbed, 'Evil.' If anything, it was the act of an Anti-Hero. What we witnessed may simply be the results of an epiphany Anduin had, that all his ideals and hopes cannot measure up to reality. He cast off the comfortable garments of naivety, and acted as the world would force him to act. The results of his act will measure the wisdom of his decision.
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