Why Aren't People Up in Arms...

26 Worgen Hunter
150
The Forsaken are ruthless, cunning, and manipulative. That being said, they do give those they raise the choice to join, and the alternative is not necessarily death, as reflected in the first few quests in the Forsaken starting area. I'm willing to bet they use these methods elsewhere, but that's immaterial. Whoever made the comparison between Anduin and the Forsaken was an idiot, at least when he posted that.

The real truth here is that Anduin did not control the dwarf's mind, no matter what they called the spell. He did not compel the dwarf to do anything, just temporarily distracted him. The term 'mind control' implies some kind of will dominating another, and controlling the individual in some way. Anduin did not do this, he redirected the dwarf without invading his mind or thoughts at all.

Now whether or not this is representative of Alliance or Western beliefs is another story. I would say no, only because I can see the myriad of extreme issues in saying this sort of this is ok.


They held a conversation... The dwarf did a complete 180 and told Anduin he could go where he pleases... How did he not invade his mind to bring about this turn of events?

And really, don't call people idiots because of your skewed interpretation. Mind Control, specifically any event in which free will is forcefully taken from an individual is wrong. That is a philosophical stance many people take and the Anduin in this specific event trods all over this other characters free will. There is no context to think about, this is wrong. Just as wrong as Sylvanas supposedly MCing newly risen undead.

Now don't confuse the two. I'm not saying Anduin is the second coming of Sylvanas. She has dug her own grave with her deeds. I've gone into detail about what I think on that front in prior posts in this thread. What I'm saying is don't just forgive and forget Anduin's actions for something you are condemning Sylvanas over.

Again, Sylvanas has done many things deserving of being condemned over, potential mind control being but one tiny spec on a canvas of atrocities. Asking for people to be mindful that Anduin is not a simple holier than thou individual is not saying that Sylvanas should be given a clean slate or put on equal terms.
Edited by Rudox on 10/4/2012 1:55 AM PDT
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10/04/2012 01:52 AMPosted by Rudox
And really, don't call people idiots because of your skewed interpretation. Mind Control, specifically any event in which free will is forcefully taken from an individual is wrong. That is a philosophical stance many people take and the Anduin in this specific event trods all over this other characters free will. There is no context to think about, this is wrong. Just as wrong as Sylvanas supposedly MCing newly risen undead.


Just because two actions are both "wrong" doesn't make them morally equivalent.

To give a more realistic, if extreme, example, no one would argue that unprovoked assault isn't wrong, but there is no rational person who would put "punching someone in the face for no particular reason" in the same category as "feasting on someone's entrails while they slowly die in excruciating pain". Yet the logic you are using would put both of these acts on the same level.

So even if we accept Anduin's actions as being wrong, they are nowhere close to being just as wrong as what Sylvanas is doing.
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85 Undead Rogue
3220
"He's wrong but......"

That word "but" omits everythign that came before it.
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90 Troll Rogue
9870
10/04/2012 09:53 AMPosted by Falrinn
So even if we accept Anduin's actions as being wrong, they are nowhere close to being just as wrong as what Sylvanas is doing.


I don't that was the point of the post to begin with, nor do I think anyone has been saying that.
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86 Undead Death Knight
3690
What Anduin did is similar to the Buddhist concept of skillful means. Where you are lying about something but only for the greater good of everyone. Anduin used mind control yes. Mind control is generally considered wrong. However he used it for the greater good.
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26 Worgen Hunter
150
And really, don't call people idiots because of your skewed interpretation. Mind Control, specifically any event in which free will is forcefully taken from an individual is wrong. That is a philosophical stance many people take and the Anduin in this specific event trods all over this other characters free will. There is no context to think about, this is wrong. Just as wrong as Sylvanas supposedly MCing newly risen undead.


Just because two actions are both "wrong" doesn't make them morally equivalent.

To give a more realistic, if extreme, example, no one would argue that unprovoked assault isn't wrong, but there is no rational person who would put "punching someone in the face for no particular reason" in the same category as "feasting on someone's entrails while they slowly die in excruciating pain". Yet the logic you are using would put both of these acts on the same level.

So even if we accept Anduin's actions as being wrong, they are nowhere close to being just as wrong as what Sylvanas is doing.


No I'm saying a person should be held accountable for each wrong they do. The latter person should be held in contemptofr murder, cannibalism, and whatever other wrongs he had done in that scenario. The first person should be held in contempt of assault and nothing more.
Edited by Rudox on 10/4/2012 10:44 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
10385
So if Anduin theoritically used the powers of an Old God to kill x or y NPC, "for the greater good", it would be okay?
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86 Undead Death Knight
3690
10/04/2012 10:48 AMPosted by Baalsamael
So if Anduin theoritically used the powers of an Old God to kill x or y NPC, "for the greater good", it would be okay?


If he some how didn't turn evil then I guess yea. It's like player characters who are Warlocks. Fel magic is generally looked down upon with good reason but player warlocks are tolerated because they work for the greater good.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
10385
10/04/2012 10:57 AMPosted by Tevinter
If he some how didn't turn evil then I guess yea. It's like player characters who are Warlocks. Fel magic is generally looked down upon with good reason but player warlocks are tolerated because they work for the greater good.


Well, then there's another aspect to it. What Anduin wants may be the "greater good" to him, and perhaps to us the players, but to NPCs he is a traitor I imagine.

I mean, a warlock helps out and kills stuff that want to destroy the world because he rather enjoys, you know, being alive and being able to wreak havoc another day. Not out of a sense of morality.

Also, my point was no, using certain powers, no matter the intent, is bad. Makes him at least partly evil, or very okay with doing evil things. Morality becomes grey...

Then again, this all makes sense for the legendary. "The Two Princes" bit, both being morally grey characters.
Edited by Baalsamael on 10/4/2012 11:04 AM PDT
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60 Orc Warrior
570
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh141/logginyourkeys/badanalogies.jpg

I'm just going to leave this here. It seems like a very silly thread.
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10/04/2012 10:48 AMPosted by Baalsamael
So if Anduin theoritically used the powers of an Old God to kill x or y NPC, "for the greater good", it would be okay?


If Anduin used the powers of an Old God (like many suspect Shaohao of doing) to achieve lasting peace and prosperity, is he really doing evil?
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90 Draenei Paladin
10410
Ark here, wanted to slap Anduin silly for that.

But let's talk Mind Control. Why is it bad? Because it is an abrogation of a person free will, of a persons freedom.

But we can do this without magic you know. Blackmail. Lying/manipulation/brainwashing. So yeah, he was in the wrong there. But as has been said, this the legal equivalent of Jaywalking versus reckless endangerment.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
10385
10/04/2012 02:07 PMPosted by Spellestra
If Anduin used the powers of an Old God (like many suspect Shaohao of doing) to achieve lasting peace and prosperity, is he really doing evil?


Yup.

Doing evil acts that end with general good is still doing evil acts. The ends justify the means, but does not redeem them. The means are still very much immoral and evil.

And to say that "well it's not AS evil as..." is kinda absurd. If you are found with a pound of !@#$%^- versus a warehouse of *!@#$%^, the punishment is the same. Laws, mortal and moral, are based off of LIMITS. Regardless of the extent the line was crossed, it was crossed nonetheless.
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Also, my point was no, using certain powers, no matter the intent, is bad. Makes him at least partly evil, or very okay with doing evil things. Morality becomes grey...


Exactly what evil magic was Anduin using?

Shadow magic isn't necessarily evil, after all.
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10/03/2012 03:22 PMPosted by Vyrin
Sylvanas doesn't control the Forsaken with Mind Control. They all have free will, and can choose whatever path they like after being raised. They can serve her or not.


No, they can't. They're "frenzied" and don't get a choice until long after their choices would actually have any meaning.


Actually, yes, they can. Not all Forsaken are raised frenzied and they still have a choice once they've calmed down.
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90 Human Warrior
13415
Once again, he did not control the dwarf, he used the power of suggestion to make the dwarf believe he wanted Anduin to go, after which the dwarf fully regained his mental faculties. Anduin also used this only as a last resort when he was cornered.

It could be considered bad, sure. But you have to ask yourself why he did it? You should know the answer if you've done the quests.

Now ask yourself if it was worth it to be hauled off without opening the Vale.

It was morally grey at worst.
Edited by Mordstreich on 10/5/2012 3:49 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Warrior
10525
If Anduin is guilty of some ethical transgression in his 'mind controling' of the aforementioned Dwarf, then every time a Jedi uses their Force-persuade they are commiting a violation of their code.

Anduin persuaded the Dwarf to let him go, knowing he had a chance to make the world better by seeking diplomatic relations with the Pandaren's. Had he been hauled away home, as the SI:7 agents were ordered, the Vale never would have been opened, and considering the state of it when we get there, i think it's safe to say the Mogu would have taken over. Not to mention the other unpleasentries which would surely follow.

Andoin proved himself a better leader in that one decision than his father is, so i fail to see why theres any concern about it. It's not like her perminantly mind-slaved the furry little dwarf.
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90 Pandaren Monk
10495
10/03/2012 11:23 AMPosted by Noitora
When Anduin enslaves someone with Mind Control to fight or kill, I feel people could complain. He did so to follow his sense of justice. It's really the same thing as Obi-Won mind tricking the Stormtrooper.


This. The dwarf even seemed proud of it.
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90 Undead Rogue
6680
Oh this is a simple one, it's called double standard.

It's the same double standard we see when discussing goblin civilans being blown up, the obliteration of an entire troll tribe, the DK's resurretion of ghouls, Garithos, etc etc
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90 Draenei Shaman
4895
how is it a double standard for both sides?

the people who were anti-forsaken for the debunked theory of "forsaken mind control", are waiving off the princes actual use of mind control.

the other side is pointing out that when the horde is accused of doing it, it was bad. but when the prince actualy does it, it is okay.


Because some of the people who are saying Anduin is wrong, are saying that the Forsaken are right. A lot of people are saying "It's only ok if we do it."
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