So what are Justice Points for?

100 Blood Elf Priest
13225
Now, I'm not talking about the JP that we brought with us to max level because we were already capped on our mains, or the JP that some people earn by dungeon leveling. It's obvious what those are for: picking up a piece or two of gear to get us into heroics if we screw up and disenchant too many poorly-itemized quest rewards (points finger at self). Now, that's a narrow niche, but it's somewhat useful.

What I'm talking about are the JP we earn at max level. What are they for?

There's one thing they're clearly not for: getting into heroics. Suppose you get to max level with only a nominal amount of JP (you're a new character leveled mostly by questing). You can't hit the 440 item level threshold (you lost some of your quest gear, let's say) and can't afford the AH prices for crafted gear. You'd like to replace a slot or two with JP gear.

The only way to earn JP at max level, if you can't get into heroics, is scenarios: 30 JP per scenario. At roughly 15 minutes per scenario, that's 2 JP/minute. The cheapest JP items are 1250 JP, so it would take you 625 minutes, or 10 and a half hours, of just straight grinding scenarios just to buy one JP item. That's not counting any queue times. Not only is that completely unrealistic, it's probably the worst conceivable time investment in the game. You could buy 4 or 5 equivalent Honor items in that time. Obviously, JP cannot possibly be designed to get new 90s into heroics...or if it is, it's designed to be drastically inferior to Honor for that purpose.

So, assume you can get into heroics. Then the primary source of JP is running heroics. That's actually not that terrible a source, especially considering you're also getting chances at gear drops. But once you're at that point, what are they for?

They're not for making heroics easier. The only way the heroics could be easier (excluding of course the trash at the end of SPM) is if the bosses just killed themselves when you walked in the room. You don't need JP gear to run heroics. So what do you need it for?

Prior to this hotfix, JP could have had a purpose: to be converted to Honor. But now both the Honor and the JP gear are sitting 5 item levels below the minimum gear requirement for the first LFR instance. If you want to raid LFR with slots filled in with JP gear, you also need to get raid or valor gear to compensate. But if your gear isn't good enough to run LFR, why is it good enough to run normal raids? And if you need valor gear first before JP gear is useful, doesn't that entirely defeat the purpose of JP being the easy/accessible 'farmable' currency?

This whole system makes no sense.
90 Human Mage
5840
At least they designed some gear thing that hovers over interactable quest objects for this expansion. Also, the scenery is great.
100 Blood Elf Priest
13225
There's actually a lot of stuff to like about the expansion. I'm just completely flabbergasted by the entry-level itemization. The rep gating, the item levels, the PvP/PvE gear imbalance, the imbalance among different methods of gear acquisition, and the knee-jerk item hotfixes pouring in faster than the class balance hotfixes in Cata.

Perhaps this wasn't tested sufficiently because of the free Conquest gear on the beta and the item-level normalization in raid testing? People didn't actually gear up, so there wasn't enough feedback on how silly the system was? (There was actually a lot of feedback, but I assume that, in accordance with your usual policy, you ignored it because it was theoretical rather than experiential.)
90 Worgen Warlock
11215
You hit the nail on the head. The whole system is completely asinine.
100 Troll Druid
9055
It doesn't make any sense.

Justice points are a heroic-level currency, there is absolutely no reason why they are used for purchasing sub-heroic level gear.

The same thing can be said for Valor Points, honestly. These are primarily a raid-level currency, and award less-than-raid level gear.
100 Night Elf Warrior
18190
Points are supposed to help you fill in gearing gaps if you are unlucky with drops. Having the gear be slightly weaker than heroic drops serves to do just that. Its better than what you have, but not so good that the actual drop is no longer wanted.

If justice gear was heroic level, many of the justice pieces would be BIS pre-raid because of better stat distributions, or at least so close that you no longer really care about the actual heroic drop. Certainly, this has happened in the past. In Cata I remember quite a few slots where the justice piece was better than any piece of gear I could get from a heroic. This is just the first time they've designed it so that justice gear is to actually fill in gaps and not just a parallel looting system where some of your ideal pre-raid gear comes from.

Valor is similar, where the valor gear is weaker than most normal mode raid drops (everything that isn't from Mogu'shan vaults). People that only do LFR might see it as a parallel gearing process, but people doing normal/heroic modes will actually see it as a way to fill in gaps and not an alternative to drops.

Its probably that the minimum item level of LFR might be a tad too high, since it does basically require full heroic drops without a few epics to compensate. But I think that is a separate issue than the role of justice gear.
Edited by Asthas on 10/3/2012 12:07 PM PDT
100 Orc Death Knight
14520
An intelligent complaint - I like it.
90 Worgen Rogue
5005
Posted by Kaels:
The only way to earn JP at max level, if you can't get into heroics, is scenarios: 30 JP per scenario.
No, unless they changed it in the last hour, you earn Valor, not Justice, from Scenarios.
24 Worgen Druid
60
10/03/2012 12:07 PMPosted by Rashend
An intelligent complaint - I like it.


Couldn't agree more
90 Worgen Warlock
11215
This is just the first time they've designed it so that justice gear is to actually fill in gaps and not just a parallel looting system where some of your ideal pre-raid gear comes from.


And this is precisely the point. You're effectively punishing people for having bad luck, in a way that you've never been before.

Run that dungeon twenty times with no helm drop? Well, here's something that isn't as good and will actively prevent you from LFR queuing, assuming you have no epics.
Edited by Luthair on 10/3/2012 12:13 PM PDT
It makes sense really.

In Cataclysm, the gear dropping in whatever tier you were in, be it Heroic 5-mans or raids, became devalued because you could buy the same quality gear from a vendor.

Being able to buy gear that is slightly less awesome means that you still can get some joy from getting that reward from completing the content. It moves the content away from being just a point generating machine.

I'm excited to get into it - one of the things I miss about the olden days was gearing up by getting drops. It makes the progression that much more interesting. The design of the new system wants us all to slow down and enjoy the place rather than power smash into the raid content.
90 Pandaren Monk
11925
I think the problem is they had a system where we would buy gear with jp, then upgrade that gear with valor points to increase its item level. They scrapped that at last minute and gave us this mess we have now.
100 Troll Druid
9055
Points are supposed to help you fill in gearing gaps if you are unlucky with drops. Having the gear be slightly weaker than heroic drops serves to do just that. Its better than what you have, but not so good that the actual drop is no longer wanted.

If justice gear was heroic level, many of the justice pieces would be BIS pre-raid because of better stat distributions, or at least so close that you no longer really care about the actual heroic drop. Certainly, this has happened in the past. In Cata I remember quite a few slots where the justice piece was better than any piece of gear I could get from a heroic. This is just the first time they've designed it so that justice gear is to actually fill in gaps and not just a parallel looting system where some of your ideal pre-raid gear comes from.

Valor is similar, where the valor gear is weaker than most normal mode raid drops (everything that isn't from Mogu'shan vaults). People that only do LFR might see it as a parallel gearing process, but people doing normal/heroic modes will actually see it as a way to fill in gaps and not an alternative to drops.

Its probably that the minimum item level of LFR might be a tad too high, since it does basically require full heroic drops without a few epics to compensate. But I think that is a separate issue than the role of justice gear.


But this doesn't make a whole lot of sense, from a currency perspective.

What hole am I filling in by using JP to buy a piece that is crappier than what I can get in dungeons?

The problem is I'm not. if I use JP to fill in a "hole," that hole still exists, because the JP piece I bought is crappier than the drop I need. So really, I haven't accomplished anything, I am still at the mercy of RNG.

With JP gear at heroic level, that gear can actually be used to fill a hole and prevent me from having to farm for the same item over and over and over and over again. As it currently stands, JP does not perform this function.

And honestly, who cares if some JP/VP pieces are BiS? This was only the case in Cata because some VP items were better itemized.

Another point I would make is that JP/VP gear being the appropriate level increases the gear options. At the end of cata, for example, there were 2 different leather agility bracers of the same ilevel, both with slightly different itemization, that made them optimal for tanking vs dps. Now, in all likelihood, there's only going to be 1 leather agility bracer that drops from raid bosses, and it'll only have itemization, which will be optimal for one spec and sub-optimal for another.

What is so wrong with VP and JP gear sometimes being the BiS at their item level?
100 Troll Druid
9055
10/03/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Mvura
In Cataclysm, the gear dropping in whatever tier you were in, be it Heroic 5-mans or raids, became devalued because you could buy the same quality gear from a vendor.


You could only buy the gear from a vendor using currency that dropped from appropriate level content.

The more choices of gear made itemization easier, as there were more differently itemized armor of the same type to choose from.
100 Night Elf Warrior
18190
As I said, the item level requirement for LFR might be a bit too high. But that is a separate issue.

If not having ideal gear is being 'punished', the only solution is to make all gear come from some sort of point system, because otherwise there is no way to ensure you will have ideal gear. Even if justice loot were heroic level, it doesn't cover every slot and the stat distributions won't always be perfect on those that exist.

They just want to avoid, "Oh, the heroic helm dropped. Meh I already bought one with justice/its not as good as the one from justice I'm about to buy anyway"
100 Troll Druid
9055
This is just the first time they've designed it so that justice gear is to actually fill in gaps and not just a parallel looting system where some of your ideal pre-raid gear comes from.


And this is precisely the point. You're effectively punishing people for having bad luck, in a way that you've never been before.

Run that dungeon twenty times with no helm drop? Well, here's something that isn't as good and will actively prevent you from LFR queuing, assuming you have no epics.


Furthermore, it doesn't do what they say it does.

You get a crappier JP piece, you still have to run the dungeon and hope for better luck in order to progress.
100 Human Paladin
8110
I can only speak from a very limited base of experience since I started half way through Cata.

I had no problem with barriers of entry. I did use the JP's to fill in gaps due to RNG issues. But then, once I started doing more heroics and LFR and my toon got good gear, I used the JP's 1st to send Boots & Bracers (BoE) to my alts. Then after that, I used them to buy Chanting and Inscription Mats, Crystals and Herbs.

Not an ideal way to do things I know, but I really love doing the 5-mans..my favorite part of the game actually so I had a $hit ton of JP's :)

/Salute
100 Human Warlock
10580
Another problem I see occurring, since JPs are basically worthless (for current gear at least), is that we now "need" the drops from dungeon bosses. This isn't a bad thing technically, but if it happens to be the first boss a person needs, they can and some will come in kill said boss, drop group, and re-queue.

When JPs were worth something there was at least some incentive to finish the run but this scenario happened even then, now I see running through LFD becoming more frustrating because of this.
Edited by Sharmarli on 10/3/2012 12:18 PM PDT
100 Troll Druid
9055
10/03/2012 12:15 PMPosted by Asthas
As I said, the item level requirement for LFR might be a bit too high. But that is a separate issue.


But it's not just the ilevel requirement for LFR. It's the fact that this new system doesn't fix the "bad luck with drops" problem.

If not having ideal gear is being 'punished', the only solution is to make all gear come from some sort of point system, because otherwise there is no way to ensure you will have ideal gear. Even if justice loot were heroic level, it doesn't cover every slot and the stat distributions won't always be perfect on those that exist.


It's not being "punished" it's just that JP doesn't do what it's advertised to do.

No, not every JP piece would be perfectly itemized. But you have to realize, not every heroic drop is perfectly itemized. Having 1 JP piece and 1 drop piece of the same ilevel gives more itemization options. I don't like that the leather drop boots have haste instead of crit? Then I can pick up the JP piece that has more crit.

Currently, the JP piece will always be worse, and I'll have no choice but to take a poorly-itemized drop.

They just want to avoid, "Oh, the heroic helm dropped. Meh I already bought one with justice/its not as good as the one from justice I'm about to buy anyway"


I do not understand at all what the problem with this is. It takes a long time to get enough points to buy anything, and if one of the things I buy happens to be better than 1 drop, then who cares?

I'll still use most of the things that drop, and I'll still be excited when they drop, but as a consolation, I've got a helm that's heroic level, using currency that drops from heroic content. I fail to see a problem with this. It's not like I was handed the helm, I ran dungeons to get enough points for it.
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