So what are Justice Points for?

90 Troll Druid
8840
I for one am loving the new expansion and the way Justice Points are used to fill in gear and not just a way to gear up your character. I have been playing since vanilla and feeling is one thing that has been missing since justice points came to be. There was no more disappointment or excitement when an item dropped, It was simply I need this many more points to get my gear piece i need.

It actually takes some time invested to get the returns that you want. They feel more deserved after you obtain them. It really doesn't take all that much time and it wouldnt be any fun if you were geared up in the first 2 weeks of the game with nothing else to do.


But they don't fill in gear.

They don't even get you to the level of content you're running. Even if you have a JP piece for a slot, you need to continue running the dungeon praying for to the rng gods.
90 Night Elf Druid
9620
The problem isn't the time invested, Camdinn. The problem is the absolute reliance on RNG to get into LFR at all, since even one slot lower than 463 is going to bar people from it as things stand. That's 15-16 items that have to drop in heroics before LFR is possible. Get lucky with Coren Direbrew and that drops by one or two.

The argument that you feel something is more deserved if it takes longer is all well and good, if it's earned....but what comes out of a slot machine is *not* earned. As many can attest, for everyone who glides through getting every drop they need another's going to be left pulling the handle and watching the lemons spin by.

Historically the role of JP has been backstopping RNG, and the limitation was the weekly. Now, so far as I can tell, *nothing* is in that role, and JP gear is for, as you say, "Fill in" gear. But there's no NEED for "fill in" gear at this level. It accomplishes nothing besides letting you do the dailies and heroics a tad easier--it's neither essential for advancement nor inherently fun to get.

I really don't have a horse in this race, since my idea of progression is currently scenarios at lunch and dailies when I can fit them in, but from a raw game design point of view, JP items fill a niche that has never existed, while the niche that does exist is all RNG-driven.
90 Troll Druid
8840
10/04/2012 06:35 AMPosted by Undergrowth
it's neither essential for advancement nor inherently fun to get.


I think this is an important point. I haven't really touched on the "fun" aspect of the new JP system.

I understand that fun is a very subjective term.

But I honestly don't see what could possibly be fun about running content, having bad luck with RNG and then being relegated to spending JP on an inferior, less-than-satisfying piece of gear. At least with the old system the JP gear was actually on-par with the content you were getting the JP from, and thus more satisfying and fun.
The current system is okay--it's heavily gated, to slow us down, and I get that. I do wish that reputations, as a result, were account-wide, because for the rest of my alts I'll spend the rest of my life doing dailies, and that is just...buh.

it's neither essential for advancement nor inherently fun to get.


But I honestly don't see what could possibly be fun about running content, having bad luck with RNG and then being relegated to spending JP on an inferior, less-than-satisfying piece of gear. At least with the old system the JP gear was actually on-par with the content you were getting the JP from, and thus more satisfying and fun.


Excellent point. I've long disagreed with the devs' stance that RNG is fun (the 1% of the time that it is fun for me does not offset the frustration of the 99% that it isn't--slight hyperbole but true for the most part) and I thought that much of MoP was designed with OPTIONS in mind. To me, options means EQUAL options, not, "well you did all this, so you can choose inferior option B because it's still not the same as doing what it takes (running dungeons, rng) to get option A." Think about it. Theoretically, I could get those leather pants I want (mmm, leather) on the first dungeon run. OR. I could get them on the 20th run. But let's say, for purpose of argument, that I don't. (As an example the caster shield from DS NEVER dropped for my guild on reg or heroic). I have now done 20 roics and my reward is that I can settle for a lesser, sure-thing item. How is that reflective of the time I've invested? If anything, I've done MORE work for those pants than the guy who walks in and gets them first try. That is RNG, I'll go to my grave saying it's not fun. Make the alternatives equivalent.

What I would really, REALLY like to see is an updated Trade Goods JP vendor. I'd love to be able to purchase spirits of harmony (or even motes) with excess JP, which I have quite a bit of at the moment. I've got all the heirlooms. I've gotten most relevant JP upgrades (I think?). There are already players who have no reason to run roics after valor cap, so it kinda defeats the "we want to keep people queueing and participating," argument. I've talked with a couple tank friends and they agreed that a trade good JP vendor would be excellent incentive (dem Harmonious Buggers, bro) to continue grinding JP.

Right now I'm my guild's LW and farming the spirits to make all the upgrades is incredibly tedious.
Edited by Donxiong on 10/4/2012 7:40 AM PDT
90 Human Warrior
2365
I for one am loving the new expansion and the way Justice Points are used to fill in gear and not just a way to gear up your character.

You fill in gear slots with lower item level gear? You run heroics, get 463's and spend Jp on 458's? ( 458's that you didn't need to que to begin with)
Cool! What a special snowflake you are.
90 Undead Rogue
8670
i love how this games barely been out more than a week and theres already people whining and crying about it. grow up this expansion is amazing, best thing to happen to wow IMO. just quit whining do the dailys, do dungeons for gear and be happy!
90 Human Warrior
2365
10/04/2012 07:51 AMPosted by Kratnar
i love how this games barely been out more than a week and theres already people whining and crying about it. grow up this expansion is amazing, best thing to happen to wow IMO. just quit whining do the dailys, do dungeons for gear and be happy!

Amazing is highly subjective.
Good on you for taking garbage and asking for more.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
7685
10/03/2012 07:11 PMPosted by Fishnchips
After you obtain your Heroic gear, it's true that Justice Points won't be as useful. Obviously, they can be turned over for Honor, and at some point in the future we may add trade materials or Heirlooms to the quartermasters.


oooh. hopefully that means spirits of harmony.
Utterly asinine. It is the way it is because Blizzard changed, and they have ALREADY made changes to revert some of those design decisions. They have also stated outright in this very thread that they are listening to feedback, so expect more changes.

The whole "free epics" argument is, and always has been, the most asinine floating around the forums. Whether they are epics or not is completely arbitrary, it makes no real difference to performance. What they OFFERED with the promise of mop was more OPTIONS to gear up and progress. What they DELIVERED was more REQUIREMENTS to gear up and progress efficiently (which is what most players want to do - and those that don't have less options and slower speed available to them when compared to previous expansions).

They described one thing, and delivered a system that was almost paradigmatically opposite to what they described.


Exactly. Couldn't have said it any better myself.

I remember reading that "A night in Mists of Pandaria" blog they did a few months back. I was so excited by that. It made it seem like such a fun way to do things -- do whatever you want, and you progress. Sort of like Guild Wars 2 that way. Now there's a game where you really can do whatever you want and be rewarded for it.

Now, maybe I misinterpreted things, but the endgame that launched for MoP is not what I thought it was going to be. As someone else put it, instead of an endgame where you can do anything to progress, it's an endgame where you have to do everything to progress, and that's not the same thing at all.

And as for the whole "free epics" thing? I don't buy it. The fact is we had that system in place for two expansions, and it worked perfectly fine. The world did not end. The game did not die. Packs of casuals weren't roaming the streets, feasting on the flesh of the innocent.

WoW hit its subscription peak in Wrath, when epics were practically raining from the sky. You made it harder to gear up in Cataclysm, and subs dropped. Now, correlation doesn't prove causation, but I think it can at least be inferred that making gear accessible doesn't hurt the game.

People didn't have nothing to do in Cata because gear was too easy to get. They had nothing to do because there was nothing to do. I can count on one hand the number of times in Cata I hit valor cap, and I still felt I had nothing to do half the time, because there was nothing to do. I couldn't get into raids, so getting better gear didn't matter much, and there was no relevant content beyond dungeons and a few dailies. Those wouldn't be an issue in MoP regardless of whether we had the old or new points system.

10/04/2012 06:26 AMPosted by Fishnchips
I would say tanks and healers are more likely now than ever to move on, as once they are geared up from heroic-level loot, heroics don't offer much else in the way of an incentive.


Truth. For my part, I'm not going to even bother leveling up my healer until something changes. Too much effort for too little reward. I'm not even sure I'll have the patience to keep grinding on my main, let alone alts.

The problem isn't the time invested, Camdinn. The problem is the absolute reliance on RNG to get into LFR at all, since even one slot lower than 463 is going to bar people from it as things stand. That's 15-16 items that have to drop in heroics before LFR is possible. Get lucky with Coren Direbrew and that drops by one or two.

The argument that you feel something is more deserved if it takes longer is all well and good, if it's earned....but what comes out of a slot machine is *not* earned. As many can attest, for everyone who glides through getting every drop they need another's going to be left pulling the handle and watching the lemons spin by.

Historically the role of JP has been backstopping RNG, and the limitation was the weekly. Now, so far as I can tell, *nothing* is in that role, and JP gear is for, as you say, "Fill in" gear. But there's no NEED for "fill in" gear at this level. It accomplishes nothing besides letting you do the dailies and heroics a tad easier--it's neither essential for advancement nor inherently fun to get.

I really don't have a horse in this race, since my idea of progression is currently scenarios at lunch and dailies when I can fit them in, but from a raw game design point of view, JP items fill a niche that has never existed, while the niche that does exist is all RNG-driven.


This guy gets it. I don't really understand the perception that getting a drop by random chance the first time you kill a boss is somehow less work and less rewarding than grinding up points over multiple runs to buy a piece of gear.
Edited by Maigraith on 10/4/2012 8:06 AM PDT
90 Dwarf Warrior
12760
10/03/2012 09:01 PMPosted by Daxxarri
In the early days of Cataclysm, for example, between dungeon drops and Justice Point gear, active tanks (and to a lesser extent healers) very rapidly loaded up on all the tanking gear they could carry, filled out dps sets, loaded up on Heirlooms, then walked away from dungeons without looking back.

Pace-slowing may work with raids, but it's not a very strong motivation for players to run a venue as easy and transactional as 5-man dungeons.

Contrast this with the genius of Bundles of Groceries. In the past, once players have supplanted one buff food item with a better one, they've typically stopped farming for the ingredients. Now, players can go all the way back to Jade Forest to fish the lowest-level schools in Pandaria, and monetize it for even the highest-level rewards — and they'll be able to do it every day until the end of the expansion.

Why don't you try applying a similar concept to dungeon-crawling?
90 Troll Druid
8840
10/04/2012 07:51 AMPosted by Kratnar
i love how this games barely been out more than a week and theres already people whining and crying about it. grow up this expansion is amazing, best thing to happen to wow IMO. just quit whining do the dailys, do dungeons for gear and be happy!


I am loving the expansion thus far, having a great time levelling up.

However, what I am doing is not "whining and crying." It is criticizing a flawed system.
90 Human Death Knight
10605
I agree with the OP about the JP pieces being essentially worthless to buy, that's why I buy looms with my JP.
90 Gnome Warlock
8810
If the LFR ilvl requirement changed to 458, would that make this complaint go away?
10/04/2012 08:24 AMPosted by Superbro
If the LFR ilvl requirement changed to 458, would that make this complaint go away?


Not really. The core complaint isn't that people can't access something--it's that RNG is being held aloft in the air over time investment, AND that JP is once again becoming somewhat "useless," to folks who already have heirlooms (or aren't interested) etc. 1 week into an xpac is awfully early for something as important as JP to become relatively useless.

IE--My 10 heroic runs' worth of JP is not worth the same as one lucky drop.

I still think the easy solution would be to let people buy motes/spirits of harmony with JP.

OR.

Have every boss, guaranteed, reward each player that killed it a couple motes. That would keep people running the instances. I'd much rather farm dungeons for motes than go out into the world (and yes, I know that was a design goal) and farm random mobs ad nauseum for "Harmony."
Edited by Donxiong on 10/4/2012 8:44 AM PDT
90 Draenei Paladin
7660
10/04/2012 08:24 AMPosted by Superbro
If the LFR ilvl requirement changed to 458, would that make this complaint go away?


Somewhat but not really. They would have to re tweek LFR for the lower gear score requirements which is silly, because that isn't really the problem. Which is also why raising it from 450 to 458 also didn't fix the problem. The problem that as long as Justice is not desirable there is no reason to keep running dungeons. In fact what you are seeing is people bailing as soon as they don't get their drop, even more so than we saw in Cat, there isn't any point at all to going on because there is no justice equivalent to the gear you are trying to get. Ideally justice gear would be equal to or higher than what drops in heroics.

People say that you just want free gear, which is silly. What people want is a reason to actually do the heroics but with absolutely no reason to bother with justice it is far more efficient to just to leave if there is nothing left you need. And that is what people are doing..... at the very beginning of the expansion... it will only get worse. With justice being essentially worthless(or worth very little if you prefer), you can get more valor in less time doing dailies and those also give rep, if you don't need a specific drop there is no reason to do a dungeon. And that sucks for the other people who actually want to do them.
90 Blood Elf Mage
17145
10/04/2012 06:47 AMPosted by Fishnchips
But I honestly don't see what could possibly be fun about running content, having bad luck with RNG and then being relegated to spending JP on an inferior, less-than-satisfying piece of gear.


My favorite part is that after this was repeatedly pointed out, the blue poster claimed folks simply need to fill in with iLvl 489 valor gear. An acknowledgement that you have to grind a million dailies as a stop-gap against the highly likely possibility that you don't get iLvl 463 drops for every slot while you are also spending hours spamming heroics.
90 Blood Elf Mage
17145
I'll also note that until one or two days ago, Justice gear was not only 8 item levels lower (450), it was also unattainable until you ground out massive amounts of rep.

What is the explanation for that? What was your plan for gearing before one day ago?

All of this was pointed out for about half a year on the Beta.
90 Blood Elf Mage
17145
Also, I do not know of any quest rewards that offer an ilvl 476 chest or necklace. And I've completed every quest in every zone except for Jade Forest.


There are no such quest rewards.

The way to get a few pieces of those, however, is through crafting and spamming dailies every day. Once I had enough rep with Golden Lotus, I was able to purchase Ilvl 476 tailoring patterns, a chest and gloves. Of course, one takes 4 imperial silk, and the other takes 6 imperial silk. There is also a 476 offhand available from inscription. But it's essentially not possible to get one right now unless you have leveled inscription yourself, because it takes a spirit of harmony to make the blue offhand, and then 5 days worth of cooldowns to upgrade it. They are selling for around 25K on my server right now.
90 Blood Elf Mage
17145
10/03/2012 09:21 PMPosted by Alexiasa
The "host of other problems" all seem to simply be people crying because they actually have to run dungeons for gear.


This is an absolute load of crap, and you are a total troll. It's as if you ignored the OP and every single comment in these 19 pages. Over and over and over, people have said they do not mind running dungeons. The OP runs dungeons all the time and is a raider. He is used to dungeon leveling and dungeon gearing. The point of the post is simply to ask the purpose of the currency awarded to those already running the dungeons.
1 Orc Warrior
0
10/03/2012 06:41 PMPosted by Daxxarri
What are you and what are we getting out of having a currency obtained from heroics give out loot that is useless to heroics?


I think that Justice Points are perhaps more of a stepping stone than they once were. They were originally added for those situations where RNG turns against you, and you haven't obtained a drop for a particular slot. Even if you didn't get the gear over successive runs, at least you have some Justice Points to help fill in the gaps in the meantime. They are returning to that intent more than being an alternative method of accruing Heroic level gear.

After you obtain your Heroic gear, it's true that Justice Points won't be as useful. Obviously, they can be turned over for Honor, and at some point in the future we may add trade materials or Heirlooms to the quartermasters.


The issue is that they're not a stepping stone at all.
Whether they're 450 or 458, they don't help you improve ilvl one bit.
There's also absolutely no point in buying Justice gear, as Honor gear has a higher overall stat budget and valuable set bonuses.
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