Challenge Modes & Healers: Your Thoughts?

90 Tauren Druid
9000
One of the things I most looked forward to with MoP was Challenge Modes. I have no doubt that they will be one of my favorite things to do once I am 90 and have a team of friends to do them with.

This morning I read on MMO Champion some thoughts from a team that recently achieved all the Gold level Challenge Modes, and I find myself saddened by the following:

You ran a healerless comp very similar to lots of other groups. Were your priest/shaman required to do anything special during the runs in order to survive?
We killed almost everything without healer with the exception of a few bosses and trash packs. For example Sha of Violence was unkillable without a healer so we had our shaman switch to resto for it. The rest of the instances were either healed by priests Vampiric Embrace and Halo, Shamans Guidance, damage soaked by Army of the Dead and Earth Elemental or just simply off spec healing by the priest. We also used a lot of damage Mitigation abilities like Anti-Magic Zone and Anti-Magic Shell, Feint and Cloak of Shadows, Dispersion and Death Knight self heals so our priest and shaman could dps as much as possible. Hardest parts to heal were Scarlet Halls trash mobs and Sha of Violence in Shado-Pan Monastery.


Can Gold be completed by groups with a dedicated healer? Very possibly. I am not even 90 yet, so I cannot say. But I would assume the answer is yes. The better question is: Can you complete Gold with a competitive time while a dedicated healer is in the group? And the answer seems likely to be no, since the leaderboards are going to be full of these bleeding edge of content hard pushing 4 dps groups.

That is kind of lame seeming, to me. I may never be able to obtain Gold anyway based on my play time or skill, whether or not I find a solid group, etc. But the idea that I can never be competitive in this new non raiding environment simply because I choose to play a full time healer is kind of depressing.

I already know that I no longer have the time to push as a raider who cares about world rankings. It was nice to think there was a 5 man place for me to put my competitive spirit into action with far less of a time requirement than competitive raiding.

The sky is not falling or anything, I just found this interesting and or saddening.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
12580
I haven't looked yet, but I hope the ilvl is capped for these things, so they keep their namesake. If there is an ilvl cap, then perhaps getting gold in and of itself will be competitive.

We shall see. To your point, if they can be done without a healer, then those groups will post quicker times than those teams who use a healer - there just isn't any way around it.

Riôt
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Druid
9000
From what I understand, regardless of what gear you are wearing, it will all be normalized down to a lower item level.

And indeed, there will be no way around that. It is absolutely possible, and being done now: gold times with 4 dps who may occasionally off heal, and only a few encounters requiring an actual heal spec.

Of course, players who are maybe "not as good" at things like staying out of the bad puddles etc will probably require a healer, and so maybe, they deserve not to rise as high in the rankings.

But what about the super awesome dedicated healers? Don't they deserve a chance at the top too?

QQ
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
8865
Personally, I think these ought to not be completable without a healer-- period. As we all know, the bleeding edge groups will milk every loophole and advantage they can find (remember all those shamans in Sunwell, and all those kitties on Nef/Ony fight?), and if that means using an extra DPS instead of a healer, then that is what they will do. And there is no question that an extra DPS will shave off time from their score, so a "typical" tank-heal-3DPS group will not be competitive against a tank-4DPS group.

Of course it's great to be able to use little tricks and play skillfully to get Gold times. AMS, Army, shaman Elementals, things like that... those are, imo, good uses of "clever use of game mechanics".

This isn't like arena all-DPS comps where a skillful healer comp can still compete, if you run a 3DPS comp versus a 4DPS comp, you're losing 25% of your DPS, and that's going to slow you down a lot. I repeat: if it can be done without a healer, that is what the majority of players will expect and do in order to be competitive, and good luck getting on a CM team as a healer. Is Gold even doable without a 4DPS comp? We'll see, I guess.

As someone who enjoys healing and tanking most, and does really terrible at DPS, it saddens me that I may be seen as a liability to my Challenge Mode team simply because of my chosen role in the game.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Druid
9000
Yep, that is exactly where I stand on it as well.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
12645
10/04/2012 02:19 PMPosted by Garofalo
Is Gold even doable without a 4DPS comp?

It is. The developer team beat Gold by 2 minutes in their demo run with a disc priest.

The disc priest, of course, was smiting a lot. Not sure how well it would play out with, say, a shaman.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Druid
9000
Yes as I said in my OP... certainly possible. Doable. Even already done. But to be competitive in the leaderboards, you would likely have to switch to DPS, and toss a few heals. Which means for resto druids, what? Boomkin is gross. Kitty mew mew for me, I guess. Or I could tank instead.

</3
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
8865
Yes as I said in my OP... certainly possible. Doable. Even already done. But to be competitive in the leaderboards, you would likely have to switch to DPS, and toss a few heals. Which means for resto druids, what? Boomkin is gross. Kitty mew mew for me, I guess. Or I could tank instead.

</3

Yeah, and have to carry around two sets of gear for it. :P I agree, I dislike boomkin, prefer kitty.

I'd also like to see how challenge modes play out with a non-DPS healer, like a shammy or a pally. Rdruids are still highly HOT based, so it makes it a little easier to weave Moonfire and Wrath in between HOTs... or at least, I would imagine. Having not done challenge modes yet, I can't say if that's feasible (though if the Disc priest was Smite healing, it probably is).
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
9130
Yes as I said in my OP... certainly possible. Doable. Even already done. But to be competitive in the leaderboards, you would likely have to switch to DPS, and toss a few heals. Which means for resto druids, what? Boomkin is gross. Kitty mew mew for me, I guess. Or I could tank instead.

</3

Yeah, and have to carry around two sets of gear for it. :P I agree, I dislike boomkin, prefer kitty.

I'd also like to see how challenge modes play out with a non-DPS healer, like a shammy or a pally. Rdruids are still highly HOT based, so it makes it a little easier to weave Moonfire and Wrath in between HOTs... or at least, I would imagine. Having not done challenge modes yet, I can't say if that's feasible (though if the Disc priest was Smite healing, it probably is).


I third disliking Boomkin :P

I plan to run challenge modes, and if it means being boomkin and healing some for it ... then so be it. I'd rather run it as a healer though, of course.

I'm not shocked people are running with a dps/healer hybrid though.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
6550
I've hated boomkin ever since they implemented the eclipse bar. It's not a fun/intersting mechanic. It's cumbersome and annoying. I know I'm not the only one that lost interest in it. I used boomkin to level simply because it gears like resto and I was not going to do quests as resto (I mostly only healed dungeons to level though). Now I'm just using boomkin to make dailies go by faster. I'd rather just use a mage/warlock/shadow priest to be a range caster than the mess that boomkin has become. This is only getting slightly off-topic... idc about challenge modes much currently but offhealing dps is probably the way to go.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
0
10/04/2012 04:46 PMPosted by Star
Which means for resto druids, what?


It means you get to take advantage of all those hybridization talents Blizzard threw at you. Honestly, I'd say we're best suited out of all the healing classes to heal from a DPS spec, and to do so with some potency.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Druid
9000
If I wanted to play a DPS spec, I'd be playing one. I want to be challenged in all arenas of play as a healer, I don't wish to be challenged as a DPS.

If I wanted a game where healing was optional, I'd be playing GW2. =P

But it is what it is, I guess. If that is the only way to compete, that is the only way. Sad pandas, indeed.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
11125
Yeah.
Reply Quote
100 Gnome Priest
19810
mm ... teams not bringing a healer sucks for us :(

Ramp up the damage blizz so they have to take us! And give classes that are healer spec'd inside the CM a slight mana regen buff to make up for the extra mana we'd have to spend .. yayayya
Reply Quote
92 Troll Druid
11230
10/05/2012 05:20 AMPosted by Sparklefever
Ramp up the damage blizz so they have to take us!
That's not why groups are going healer-less.


The fact remains is that it should be all but impossible without a healer unless we're talking about Guild Wars 2 because that's exactly how it sounds.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Priest
13895
My Challenge Mode team is starting tonight. I plan on running through the first time as shadow with some healing glyphs to see if that will be feasible. Not sure as my gear isn't all 463 yet and the dungeons are set to nerf you down to 463...but we'll see. Tonight is more our first run through to see what it's all about.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#Xb!211022!gSmnpH
Reply Quote
92 Troll Druid
11230
You're missing the point. All 'healers' just became disenfranchised from top competitive runs completely. This is certainly not what Blizzard had intended and needs to be fixed.

Making comparisons to PvP doesn't work - this isn't PvP regardless of tactics involved. Apples and oranges.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Druid
9000
I agree with Sparklefever in that the damage done by the NPCs is not the problem. They probably hit harder than mobs elsewhere as is. As noted, people are using their abilities intelligently to prevent taking damage to begin with - something a subpar (or even some pretty good) player is probably not capable of with any consistency. It is also about tons of additional damage brought by a 4th person dedicated to DPS.

I know nothing about PvP and balance of that should have little to do with balance of PvE, so setting that aside for now.

This is different from competitive raiding in that, while the top tier guilds absolutely do stack certain classes, there is no point where an entire ROLE is eliminated.. at least not to my recent memory. If there was a raid encounter where they brought absolutely NO dedicated healers, or NO tanks, that would probably be seen as a problem, yes? That, like the gold mode situation, goes beyond what I would expect to be considered reasonable.

Are gold runs possible for me? I like to think so. Will I be a top competitor on my realm's leaderboards without speccing DPS/tank (or really, being another class entirely because... >.> meh) absolutely not. And that is the source of my sadness.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]