Challenge Modes & Healers: Your Thoughts?

90 Human Priest
17200
They can't because the top ranked teams have not exploited anything to get there. The issue is structural and as a result cannot be solved short of a patch. If they can resolve it they can at that point give folks a bunch of feats of strength to represent thier achievements and reset the leaderboard.

I sadly think that challenge modes will prove to have chosen the wrong metric to test people against by going for speed runs as the measuring stick. I feel that they should have avoided the whole competative aspect being formalised and instead stuck with the vanity items for completing in the Silver time bracket.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8865
10/05/2012 06:16 AMPosted by Sparklefever
Approaching the problem with such a narrow-minded view is silly. It's not as simple as "up the damage" or "make them un-ccable" or "remove all snare effects" or "nerf cc that classes have."

Agree. If it was a simple problem to fix, it would never have been brought to Live.

The only real solution I can think of is to make unmitigatable things like AOE damage pulses, or make it so that if you CC this mob who does this dangerous thing, his buddy does this other dangerous thing. But even that kind of stuff isn't perfect.

The fact is, if Blizzard thinks it's a problem that healers are not competitive in high-end CM play, they will try to fix it. But right now, we don't even know if they think it's not okay. They have said before, however, that if they see players using strategies and tactics they don't approve of (the mentioned example was soulstone, suicide, mass rez to skip a bunch of trash) they will step in. We can only hope that alienating an entire class role falls under such strategies.

10/05/2012 04:17 PMPosted by Sparklefever
Top-rated play is not an improper comparison. At high levels of play in both PvE and PvP, there is class stacking involved, and getting world rankings on challenge modes is exactly the same thing - it's even more imperative in a 5 man, actually.

While this is true, there has never been a type of gameplay before where an entire class role is not useful simply because of their chosen play role. Healers, DPS, and yes even tanks have had their place in top-end arena combat. A tank may not play exactly the same in PVE as in PVP, but your team has to be skilled at peeling enemies away from your healers and squishier players. Yes, there are cleave all-DPS arena comps, but a skilled healer comp is competitive against that.

This is akin to going up against Heroic 25 Deathwing with no healers. It wouldn't stand there, and it shouldn't stand here-- though as I said above, it's understandably a difficult issue to solve, if indeed Blizz even agrees it's a problem.

10/05/2012 04:27 PMPosted by Eleanor
I sadly think that challenge modes will prove to have chosen the wrong metric to test people against by going for speed runs as the measuring stick. I feel that they should have avoided the whole competative aspect being formalised and instead stuck with the vanity items for completing in the Silver time bracket.

I agree, I dislike the fact that it's a race, but I can't deny that this is the best way to make the content last a long time. I never imagined I'd be competitive among even my entire realm for best times, but I liked to think that I would be at least capable of reaching good Gold times. Now I see that's not possible without playing a role I dislike, and that saddens me.
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87 Blood Elf Monk
3840
They shouldn't allow on-the-fly spec switches in challenge mode instances.
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90 Draenei Shaman
11275
@OP

You do what you gotta do to be first.

I've played with a challange mode today in a pure pug group with no vent. We failed miserably. We wiped 4 times before getting to last boss (gates of the setting sun). and wiped on the last boss before a dps ninja logged. we were at bronze score by that time.

Do you change spec, use invis pots, use rogues, do whatever you can to be first? sure. Why should a dedicated healer group out perform a group that is more flexible and not as resisitant to change to get a better score?

If tank can survive without a healer during trash before bosses, why would you hurt your team by standing there not healing as it's not needed if you groups can utilize cooldowns effectively?

How can you be saddened by this? Challange modes are not easy. A healer is NEEDED. But if you use cc's and cooldowns during trash, why not just go dps for trash? when you made a druid, you are not ONLY a healer. You are a druid. Use everything the druid has to offer (including duelspec) to win. Why not?

This is competition after all. Use everything you got.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8865
@OP

You do what you gotta do to be first.

I've played with a challange mode today in a pure pug group with no vent. We failed miserably. We wiped 4 times before getting to last boss (gates of the setting sun). and wiped on the last boss before a dps ninja logged. we were at bronze score by that time.

Do you change spec, use invis pots, use rogues, do whatever you can to be first? sure. Why should a dedicated healer group out perform a group that is more flexible and not as resisitant to change to get a better score?

If tank can survive without a healer during trash before bosses, why would you hurt your team by standing there not healing as it's not needed if you groups can utilize cooldowns effectively?

How can you be saddened by this? Challange modes are not easy. A healer is NEEDED. But if you use cc's and cooldowns during trash, why not just go dps for trash? when you made a druid, you are not ONLY a healer. You are a druid. Use everything the druid has to offer (including duelspec) to win. Why not?

This is competition after all. Use everything you got.

Somehow I don't think people would be saying this if it was the other way around and, say, CMs needed three dedicated healers. People would be rightly upset.

If HC raiding didn't need any healers, people would be rightly upset.

If we want to be competitive at CMs but can't because of our chosen playstyle, then yes, we are rightly upset.

Even if I could go DPS on trash, a person who is specced for healing and mostly heals will probably not be the best at DPS. It's just a case of practice. So what do you do? Do you keep bringing this player who is underperforming at DPS, just because healers aren't needed for CMs? Or do you just say "Well, CMs aren't for healers. Sorry. You can never be competitive unless you practice this spec that you don't enjoy and aren't any good at." He could be the best healer you've ever met, but it doesn't matter because if his DPS is no good, he won't be competitive in CMs.

There is a difference between making use of class spells, pots, and things like that to be first; and alienating an entire class role, imho.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
It's basically an exaggerated example of "the more DPS you have, the less healing you'll have to do. The more CC you have, the less healing you'll have to do." Combine those, and... well, here we are.

While being able to get Gold is still possible (and I'm afraid people don't get this), again, it's more an issue of 5 mans... well.. being 5 mans, more or less.


I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you on that, Sparkle. No one has said, "This isn't how it is." They're all saying, "It should not be this way."

Regardless of whether 5 mans are 5 mans, the question of whether they SHOULD be this way is a valid one.
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90 Tauren Druid
9000
@OP

You do what you gotta do to be first.


I personally don't want or need to be first... that is not the point. The point is an entire class role (not a spec or a class or a stacking of another class) is entirely unnecessary for this new and engaging piece of content. As I've said, repeatedly... a dedicated healer can still get the gold, assuming they are amazing and their team is likewise amazing. They will never be able to obtain even the top 200 (hypothetical number) though. And in 5 man content that is accessible to more people, the elimination of an entire role to even casually compete is kinda lame. This is not like the sponsored guilds who quit their jobs or whatever and stack 10 shamans to win Sunwell or whatever. Because while they had a lot of shaman healers, they still had tanks and DPS as well. Obviously it was imbalanced and resolved, and I feel if any other raid fight could be done completely without healers, or completely without tanks, or if a gold challenge time could be completed by a one tank 4 healer group, it would be resolved.

But it seems perennially okay to push healers out of the picture as much as possible, because doing things "faster" is always "better" and as more and more survivability utility is gained and guilds/groups push to see "how few healers we can down this with" we are either forced to become as proficient at DPS as we are at healing, or we are benched.

when you made a druid, you are not ONLY a healer. You are a druid. Use everything the druid has to offer (including duelspec) to win. Why not?


Yes I can spec DPS. I am not one of those people who insists on leveling in my resto spec because I only heal. I know how to use Barkskin and Cyclone and LOS mobs and efficiently use my battle rez. Being a dedicated healer does not mean I do not know how to play my class and make the most of my skills. It does not even mean that I am opposed to tossing out a wrath or a moonfire in downtimes. I do those things. I dislike being "inactive" during a fight and so I am always doing something.

10/06/2012 06:50 AMPosted by Garofalo
Even if I could go DPS on trash, a person who is specced for healing and mostly heals will probably not be the best at DPS. It's just a case of practice. So what do you do? Do you keep bringing this player who is underperforming at DPS, just because healers aren't needed for CMs? Or do you just say "Well, CMs aren't for healers. Sorry. You can never be competitive unless you practice this spec that you don't enjoy and aren't any good at." He could be the best healer you've ever met, but it doesn't matter because if his DPS is no good, he won't be competitive in CMs.


Exactly. Like I said above. I know how to use my utility skills. But am I good at DPS? No. No I am not. I have been playing this gosh darned game for a blisteringly scary seven years... hell almost eight. And with the exception of being a raiding rogue in vanilla, I have been a dedicated healer that entire time. I am a healer, I'm a pretty good one, and that is what I apply to guilds as, what I'm recruited for, and what I spend the majority of my non leveling time in WoW doing. I've been occasionally called to DPS on fights when, as I mentioned, it comes down to "how few healers can we bring" and I have been on the other end, when I was the one challenged to one heal heroic Saurfang or Vezax. Being the one healer selected to do that was challenging as hell. And it was, of course, 200% more fun for me to be the lone healer than to be mooshed into DPS, at which I am sub par.

I guess to some people this just sounds like a whine, and maybe it is just me whining. But it is also a concern for the direction of the game at large.
Edited by Star on 10/6/2012 10:02 AM PDT
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22 Goblin Rogue
5315
So the REAL question is?

Where is the CHALLENGE for healers? Are we to be benched, while dps and tanks are still needed?

This is very sad. I was really looking forward to challenge modes on my main healer, I thoroughly enjoyed Cata heroics before the nerfs, and don't have time to raid. I was really looking forward to some tough content.

I really wish this topic was in the General Forum as it may likely be ignored on this one.

So sad, once more this is not making just a class or spec irrelevant, this is making a whole ROLE irrelevant.

If i wanted to play a hard mode dungeon as all DPS i would be playing GW2.

Very upset by this.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8865
So the REAL question is?

Where is the CHALLENGE for healers? Are we to be benched, while dps and tanks are still needed?

This is very sad. I was really looking forward to challenge modes on my main healer, I thoroughly enjoyed Cata heroics before the nerfs, and don't have time to raid. I was really looking forward to some tough content.

Yes, all of this!! Healing MOP heroics is trivial even in barely-geared ilvl, and once you get above that, it's back to the ol' Wrath snooze and autofollow. Granted, if you somehow manage to get a group that completely ignores key mechanics, you'll be working your tail off, but the mechanics are blisteringly easy to do and the damage is absolutely trivial if you do so. Which, to be honest, is probably why healers aren't needed in CMs to begin with.
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90 Draenei Shaman
11630
Looks like disc has a perfectly suited job and plenty of free time since they aren't going to be doing much raiding. Problem is those pesky monks fill the niche too.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9015
I don't see a problem. Gold is going to be for the best of the best players. A great player will do what it takes to get Gold. If that means a resto Shammy healing in Ele spec so be it.
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90 Tauren Druid
9000
You don't see how it is a problem when, for healers, being the best of the best means speccing DPS instead of healing? Okay.

Being the best healer means not being a healer at all, and apparently, that's perfectly okay!

:P
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90 Pandaren Monk
9015
You don't see how it is a problem when, for healers, being the best of the best means speccing DPS instead of healing? Okay.

Being the best healer means not being a healer at all, and apparently, that's perfectly okay!

:P


How is being responsible for healing in a DPS spec mean not being a healer? Think outside the box. So no...I don't see a problem if some creative thinkers used their dual spec to get Gold. If you read the interview he specifically says that their healer went full heal spec for one fight in the referenced instance.

It's just a formula in the end. Damage Mitigation + Self Heals + Direct Heals + DPS. If the Direct Healing loss is made up with enough Self Healing and Mitigation then the DPS gain means a faster time.
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
I don't see a problem. Gold is going to be for the best of the best players. A great player will do what it takes to get Gold. If that means a resto Shammy healing in Ele spec so be it.


I'd prefer to see skilled healers help with Challenge Modes by allowing the tank to pull more, not by finding ways to deal damage.

And a shaman healing from Ele isn't a healer contributing damage, it's a DPS contributing healing, by definition.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9015
10/11/2012 12:26 PMPosted by Anarri
I don't see a problem. Gold is going to be for the best of the best players. A great player will do what it takes to get Gold. If that means a resto Shammy healing in Ele spec so be it.


I'd prefer to see skilled healers help with Challenge Modes by allowing the tank to pull more, not by finding ways to deal damage.

And a shaman healing from Ele isn't a healer contributing damage, it's a DPS contributing healing, by definition.


Easy solution is for you to get Gold healing a group using that strategy (which I think you'll be seeing as more people try for Gold and Silver BTW). People are making too much of this the same way they make too much of cutting edge Guilds stacking classes to beat content they shouldn't be able to based on the gear they have.

...and you can use semantics but someone who plays a healer is still a healer in my book even if they spec DPS and are assigned the healing duties. I happen to like that model...it's reminiscent of Vanilla WOW.

I would venture a guess that even someone specced full healing wil be expected to DPS in Challenge modes if they want Gold. The question just becomes the balance between that players damage output and the healing they can do based on their spec and how it synergizes with the other players. The more direct healing from the healer the less the DPS and "Tank" need to use their self healing which in turn means faster kills.
Edited by Momofuko on 10/11/2012 12:59 PM PDT
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