The Great Ironpaw Token Shortage

MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Night Elf Druid
11830
In addition, a small DPS bonus, along with more health for the tanks and more regen for the healers absolutely matters when a lot of the time, wipes can still happen when the boss is at 2% health or less. In a 25-man raid guild, using the lower stat food versus the higher stat food could actually be the difference between wiping or killing a boss


A 0.2% increase to each person's DPS is a 0.2% increase to the raid DPS. I've seen wipes at 2% or less. But 0.2% isn't 2%. It's a tenth of 2%. 0.2% of a boss's health is one second on an eight-minute enrage timer. And sure, we all have our stories about that one time where the paladin bubbled after everyone else died and killed the boss a second before the bubble ran out. And in situations like those, taking 0.2% off everyone's primary stats might have turned it into a wipe. But those stories are memorable because they're so exceedingly improbable. As I said, it almost never makes a difference.

Situations where that small a buff turns a wipe into a kill are rare enough that you'd have to spend many, many man-hours farming for each wipe prevented.


The .2% number was something that people made up, so I'm not treating that made up number as fact. It's also not just DPS, it's the tank's survivability and the healer mana regen that is also increasing with the use of better food. Extra tank survivability and a reduced chance for healers to run OOM is also important. You have wiped before because your tank died or your healer ran OOM - and with healer mana pool limitations, the extra tank health & healer mana regen is the most important part of not wiping in fights.

Raiders are absolutely 100% required to have the best food, glyphs, gems, and enchants as possible. That's how it has always been. You will see the vast majority of raiding guilds using the highest stat food even if it becomes a burden that takes away from the fun of the game, even if the cost of using that food is higher than the reward you realistically get from it.

It's Blizzard's fault if they make the hard to farm individual food which is only marginally better than feasts, and not the players' fault for being forced by the game to use it.

The fact is that there should be absolutely no difference between the feast & individual food buffs in terms of the stats they give, or it needs to just be easier to acquire the individual food so that it isn't an organizational nightmare to make sure everyone has food. There's no reason to have a marginal difference between the foods because only the best food of any expansion has ever been meaningful. Also, with the way that stats are scaling in Mists, that stat difference is much more meaningful than people give it credit for.
Edited by Lissanna on 10/3/2012 3:06 PM PDT
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90 Undead Priest
19305
One thing that I've been doing is running all my 85 alts out there - you can start farming right away. It might only be 4 plants a day, but it still adds up with 4 or 5 alts doing it. Takes about 5 mins, just keep em logged out there.
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90 Worgen Hunter
14315
What's the issue? You can get unlimited amounts of Ironpaw Tokens per day and make as much food as you want. If it is too hard for you, then use a different food. Also if you are a raiding guild that is so pro you NEED 300 stat food you should have access to unlimited gold and all the materials and foods can be purchased from people who enjoy a different aspect of the game than you.
Edited by Positivity on 10/3/2012 6:05 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9570
10/02/2012 04:48 PMPosted by Lissanna
The food that we need to make for raiding is +300 food.


"need"
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85 Goblin Death Knight
9745
I think trading food for tokens was a great idea on Blizzard's part. Look at Cata, if fish and meat wasn't used for feasts, it was essentially worthless on the AH. Just plan on buying that worthless food off of the AH, and convert it to tokens.

The only thing you need to farm in WoW is gold.
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90 Troll Druid
Syk
12255
10/03/2012 03:54 AMPosted by Lissanna
Raiders are absolutely 100% required to have the best food, glyphs, gems, and enchants as possible.

That is an absurd statement. If the best food available were only +15 stat better than feasts, would it still be absolutely 100% required? How about if it were +5? +1?

Be sane and recognize there is a tradeoff here. Make a decision about how large an effort farming is worth how small a boost to performance.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Night Elf Druid
11830
The problem with getting ironpaw tokens (because you don't get tokens from every daily quest you do) is that they require stacks of 20 resources (regardless of what you are farming). If the meat has a 30% drop rate (or less), then you need to kill a lot of animals to get the meat you need which is really time consuming. For people with endless time to grind out to get the food and ALL the other required activities (reputation grinds, dungeon runs, grinding out your weekly valor points, acquiring materials for crafted items and other consumables: flasks, gems, enchants, ect), then the individual stat food isn't a problem. For people with limited time and who don't have endless piles of gold to spend on super expensive materials on the AH, making food a needlessly difficult task isn't adding any fun to the game.

It's not any more fun for players to have to farm for individual food versus farming up resources to share as a guild for feasts. There is absolutely nothing fun about having the individual stat food be higher than you can get from the feasts. It doesn't add anything to our enjoyment of the game to have to log in every day to gather your individual food materials. It doesn't add any enjoyment to a guild bank officer to now have to produce, manage, or buy many different reagents to manage having enough quantity of many different types of food.

The reason why we switched to feasts from individual foods and flasks to the cauldrons and feasts was to reduce the burden on groups of people who were playing together. Having to produce and manage individual foods is a huge leap backwards in making the game actually fun, especially if you are an officer that has to manage and pay attention to what all the 10 to 30 raid members are doing. If you make things to time-consuming (without being particularly fun) and adding time sucking activities for no reason, you're likely to actually see player burnout from not having enough time in their week to keep everything going when they have jobs and kids and lives to actually live outside of just playing the game.

Making individual food require too many resources and having that burdensome food be better than feasts takes away from peoples' ability to enjoy the game because it turns the game into a series of required jobs you have to do inorder to maintain your ability to have fun. While some people enjoy pieces of the tasks involved (geting fish, etc), not everyone enjoys all of it or has enough hours in their week free to do the required sets of tasks. If the materials required are too high, then the prices on the AH also stay too high for the people without a lot of monetary resources and end up requiring you to do some other activity to support buying the mats instead of being able to just enjoy the parts of the game that you WANT to enjoy.
Edited by Lissanna on 10/3/2012 11:12 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Rogue
12465
10/02/2012 07:25 PMPosted by Broskin
Would having the 300 stat food buff persist through death help?


This seems to me to strike the best balance; you'd still have to do some farming to get your raid buff, but not have to go to crazy lengths to have a dozen of them each and every week.

Otherwise, probably a judgment call needs to be made to use the vendor food when you're learning the encounter and saving the 300 food for actual kill attempts, rather than trying to minmax your first efforts.
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90 Night Elf Druid
11260
I believe (this means my opinion/observation) is that blizzard wanted to reward the player for taking their own initiative in being prepared for raids. In Cataclysm it was always one person's job to provide the Cauldron(s) and another person's job to provide the feasts. Everyone else (the other 80-95% of the raid) just had to show up on time. While that's still technically doable, blizzard wanted to encourage players to take charge of their own buffs so they provided +300 individual foods. The problem is that all of this food (the banquets too) require a HUGE amount of farming, both in the literal sense and the video game term. Even if you do farm meat/fish to trade in and buy the vegetables if you do the math you're gathering 100's of items for just 5x food buff.

The best solution I've come up with is have everyone in your guild contribute Witchberries/Cabbages to the GB for the non-specialty banquet. Keep the difference between individual foods and banquets for the overachievers ;)
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90 Draenei Shaman
13860
10/03/2012 08:51 AMPosted by Sounder
Raiders are absolutely 100% required to have the best food, glyphs, gems, and enchants as possible.

That is an absurd statement. If the best food available were only +15 stat better than feasts, would it still be absolutely 100% required? How about if it were +5? +1?

Be sane and recognize there is a tradeoff here. Make a decision about how large an effort farming is worth how small a boost to performance.

For a lot of players, min/maxing is the way to go. Saying that the best food shouldn't be required is like saying that enchanting your gloves with haste rather than mastery is ok because the materials are cheaper, even though mastery may be the better stat for your class/spec. Maybe it's OK not to use potions, because they're consumables too and that's a lot of gold. Or you could just go with blue shoulder enchants rather than the epic ones, because a few extra stats isn't going to matter, right?

The fact is that any gain will be important and required by (some) guilds.
10/03/2012 11:16 AMPosted by Merelandra
Would having the 300 stat food buff persist through death help?


This seems to me to strike the best balance; you'd still have to do some farming to get your raid buff, but not have to go to crazy lengths to have a dozen of them each and every week.

Otherwise, probably a judgment call needs to be made to use the vendor food when you're learning the encounter and saving the 300 food for actual kill attempts, rather than trying to minmax your first efforts.

We don't mind the farming, it's the scale of the farming. It takes many multiples of the time required for flasks/potions to get the materials for cooking.

Lets say it takes 15 minutes to get a 20 stack of one ingredient. You'll need somewhere in the range of 60-100 to make your food. Multiply that by two and we're looking at 2 hours minimum for a raid night, plus farming for tokens on top of that.
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85 Goblin Death Knight
9745
Blizzard likes to introduce choices to the game. They certainly didn't like everyone socketing red gems anymore then we did. So they are increasing secondary gem stats, so that the easy choice should still be red gems, but if you take the time to min/max, hybrids and non-red gems might be better (at least in theory).

I think the whole 275 versus 300 food buff debate follows along that same thinking. It is a choice. If your guild chooses convenience and supplies food buffs via a feast, you get 275 of your primary stat. If you care about min/maxing, the player has to put effort into earning / buying the 300 stat food buffs.

Or maybe I am looking at the issue wrong. I would still like the convenience of dropping cauldrons, even if they do take 10/25 flasks to make and still only last an hour. It is far better for raiding then handing out flasks to every player and making sure to have extras in case more melee or casters show up. I would also like to see elixir-cauldrons for heroics and 5-mans for players who would prefer a more streamlined LFD, not to mention it would create a demand for elixirs.
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90 Human Paladin
9685
The op has a valid argument that is compounded with 25 man raids shooting for world/server firsts. My guess is he's in a guild going for those achievements. But, I guess that is the price if you want to get those firsts.

For the vast majority of the raiders that 25 point difference in stats is not going to matter.
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90 Draenei Monk
11665
Friend of mine was just complaining about the feasts last night.

On her server, carrots go for 20g each. People in the guild are SELLING their carrots, rather than contribute them to the guild bank for feasts.

She says she made 2 stacks. After that, she says they're on their own for buff food. Screw them.
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90 Draenei Monk
11665
10/03/2012 03:54 AMPosted by Lissanna
and the healer mana that is also increasing


Only if you count spirit regen.

Int doesn't affect mana pools any more. At all.

Don't recall if feasts can give spirit.
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90 Orc Hunter
18705
We don't mind the farming, it's the scale of the farming. It takes many multiples of the time required for flasks/potions to get the materials for cooking.


Hold off judgment for another few weeks, until raiders start hitting exalted with the Tillers, and can grow ~700 veggies a week, with minimal effort.
Edited by Gnorf on 10/3/2012 1:42 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
14660
Increasing the rate of exchange between vegetables to meat would go a long way towards improving this. There are going to be large numbers of vegetables farmed (and sold on the AH), being able to reasonably turn the vegetables into the rest of the ingredients needed would go a long ways.

Alternately, lower the amount of vegetables needed per token.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Night Elf Druid
11830
Increasing the rate of exchange between vegetables to meat would go a long way towards improving this. There are going to be large numbers of vegetables farmed (and sold on the AH), being able to reasonably turn the vegetables into the rest of the ingredients needed would go a long ways.

Alternately, lower the amount of vegetables needed per token.


Sure, this would be a perfectly reasonable way to decrease the stress involved of gathering the resources needed without negatively impacting anyone's play.
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85 Draenei Paladin
9380
I will have multiple 90's at some point so earning the tokens won't be an issue, but for the average player that likely doesn't have multiple characters to pull from, I would settle for making every daily give a token ... so they could potentially get about 35-40 tokens per week. Even if they don't have the time to do the dailies to get the tokens it would drive prices down to a point where they could afford to buy off the AH. It would have a marginal (at best) effect on server economies.
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90 Pandaren Hunter
8990
Maybe they want to keep options open for additional cooking/tillers content in a future patch.

I personally hope that the food situation stays how it is. If you want the best, you have to earn the best. I would be greatly amused if they lowered the good food to 275 just so it was the same as feasts for all the special snowflakes. Or if they upped feasts to 300 and multiplied the cost by 10 or 25, depending on the version.
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90 Human Paladin
aus
17935
10/03/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Askledarea
The fact is that any gain will be important and required by (some) guilds.


That I can agree with rather then Lissanna insistence that all raiders are affected. Nobody said boo because I walked in with the blue leg enchant(10g) on my 433 pants rather then the epic leg enchant(12000g) I ate my 250 spirit food and sucked down my 750 spirit elixers and we killed stuff. In part that's because its day 1.

But something needs to be done. The level should be such that a guild can source its own, not be required to go out buy or use multiple alts. Raider taxes are bad.
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