Blackout Kick for BM too expensive?

76 Human Monk
6980
I've got this impression tanking at lv47...

I mean, I often find myself afraid to spend chi because not being able to have 2 chi for BoK right after shuffle ends.

Don't you guys think BMs should have BoK reduced to 1 chi? Since it's detrimental to our class survivability.

Right now I'm kinda saving Keg Smashs to BoK and refresh shuffle, because the cooldown is almost shuffle duration. Dunno if that's optimal, or if BM get another way to obtain chi later on.
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90 Pandaren Monk
5850
I think that your assuming that you need to keep up shuffle 100%.

60-80% that it more is atm is more than enough.

I personally try and make sure that I have guard up for when I won't have shuffle up. or using my elusive brew stacks to fill in the gap.
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
I think that your assuming that you need to keep up shuffle 100%.

60-80% that it more is atm is more than enough.

I personally try and make sure that I have guard up for when I won't have shuffle up. or using my elusive brew stacks to fill in the gap.


You are intended to have Blackout Kick's Shuffle up 100% of the time, and should do so.

10/02/2012 10:31 PMPosted by Spiral
Don't you guys think BMs should have BoK reduced to 1 chi? Since it's detrimental to our class survivability.


This is the point of Active Mitigation, and is part of why monks are so frustrated with the more recent energy regen change as opposed to reducing Shuffle's duration.
Edited by Rijdot on 10/2/2012 11:06 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
5850
I think that your assuming that you need to keep up shuffle 100%.

60-80% that it more is atm is more than enough.

I personally try and make sure that I have guard up for when I won't have shuffle up. or using my elusive brew stacks to fill in the gap.


You are intended to have Blackout Kick's Shuffle up 100% of the time, and should do so.

10/02/2012 10:31 PMPosted by Spiral
Don't you guys think BMs should have BoK reduced to 1 chi? Since it's detrimental to our class survivability.


This is the point of Active Mitigation, and is part of why monks are so frustrated with the more recent energy regen change as opposed to reducing Shuffle's duration.


So your saying a class that has multiple ways of lowering the damage thier taking (in this case; lowering it into a DoT with Shuffle, Avoiding it with a raised dodge(Elusive brew), or migating it with a shield (guard) has to keep shuffle up 100% of the time and completely ignore at least one of the other two?

They more you stack these, the less effective they become; the best time to use elusive brew is when you DON'T have shuffle. because then you are avoiding the damage thats not getting dumped into it.
The Guard is used to migate the damage that does hit when Elusive Brew is running and/or when Shuffle damage is getting to high but your not ready to use a Purifying brew.

My Active Migation is Split over multiple abilities. The only issue as a monk is I don't have as many "OHSH**" buttons as the rest of the tanks do, least not that I've seen.
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
10/02/2012 11:20 PMPosted by Drunkenmist
So your saying a class that has multiple ways of lowering the damage thier taking (in this case; lowering it into a DoT with Shuffle, Avoiding it with a raised dodge(Elusive brew), or migating it with a shield (guard) has to keep shuffle up 100% of the time and completely ignore at least one of the other two?


Shuffle is far and away your largest overall damage mitigation source, being 20% avoidance and 20% reduction of damage taken with proper use of Purifying Brew, and can easily be kept up indefinitely with plenty of chi for Guard on cooldown and Purifying Brew every ~10 seconds or so, though if you let it tick a bit longer you have room for your level 30 talents as well. It has a relatively low cost and a relatively high duration; there is absolutely no reason not to have it up indefinitely.

Elusive Brew is completely independent of both of these abilities. Using one or the other will not lock you out of Elusive Brew or resources to use it, so I don't know why you're insinuating you have to use one or the other. Neither is subject to diminishing returns, making your avoidance additive; +50% avoidance (20% parry and 30% dodge). Again, since you are able to have Shuffle up 100%, how does this diminish either one?

They more you stack these, the less effective they become; the best time to use elusive brew is when you DON'T have shuffle. because then you are avoiding the damage thats not getting dumped into it.
The Guard is used to migate the damage that does hit when Elusive Brew is running and/or when Shuffle damage is getting to high but your not ready to use a Purifying brew.


Incorrect. It is far more effective to use Elusive Brew and Guard as active mitigation abilities all on their own, while making use of Gift of the Ox procs. Once again, it's very easy to have 100% uptime on shuffle and it in no way interferes with Guard or Elusive Brew being used as often as possible. Indeed, having Shuffle up with Guard active (since you can do that quite easily) extends your Guard duration; you take less damage and use up the shield less quickly. Please tell me why you wouldn't do that.

10/02/2012 11:20 PMPosted by Drunkenmist
My Active Migation is Split over multiple abilities. The only issue as a monk is I don't have as many "OHSH**" buttons as the rest of the tanks do, least not that I've seen.


Your active mitigation is significantly different from that of other tanking classes, and things such as Gift of the Ox are taken into consideration when calculating it.
Edited by Rijdot on 10/2/2012 11:42 PM PDT
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76 Human Monk
6980
10/02/2012 11:05 PMPosted by Rijdot
This is the point of Active Mitigation, and is part of why monks are so frustrated with the more recent energy regen change as opposed to reducing Shuffle's duration


Oh, there was an energy change?

All that I'm doing is based on my current level; things might change when I get purify brew, but right now, seems that I'm too squishy to not have shuffle 100% up all times - I know active mitigation is the thing now, but not having shuffle up all time need to have just a bit more room for error, because everytime I spend chi on something else other than guard, and miss shuffle because of that, I take huge spikes.

:/
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90 Undead Monk
3935
There's a reason Haste is one of our best stats. But yeah, 100% on Shuffle is mandatory.
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prioritize Shuffle and Guard over any other Chi sinks (aka Breath of Fire)
Especially now with the change to Keg Smash hitting all targets (prev. just 3)
Remember also that using BoK while shuffle is still up will stack the time with the existing shuffle, so anytime you have 2 chi and Guard is still on CD, use it on Blackout Kick.
don't forget to weave in Tiger Palm regularily for your Power Guard

By ignoring Breath of Fire for the most part I find I quite often will have 4 chi when Guard is on CD and do two BoK's back to back. For additional AoE threat I will throw a Dizzying Haze down.
It does no damage buy "high" threat. Then while I'm waiting for energy to regen or KG to come off CD, I will rotate targets and Tiger Palm or Jab/Expel Harm them. Clash and Provoke are also your friends, especially if a mob suddenly charges your healer or that happy-go-lucky dps.

Happy Tanking

cheers
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90 Pandaren Monk
8380
I think that your assuming that you need to keep up shuffle 100%.

60-80% that it more is atm is more than enough.

I personally try and make sure that I have guard up for when I won't have shuffle up. or using my elusive brew stacks to fill in the gap.


We are built around shuffle being up 100% of the time. That being said, I think Blackout is fine. If anything, guard should be lowered to 1.
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90 Orc Monk
10295
10/02/2012 11:05 PMPosted by Rijdot
This is the point of Active Mitigation, and is part of why monks are so frustrated with the more recent energy regen change as opposed to reducing Shuffle's duration.


Active mitigation till you get stunned then ^ put's you in a bad situation taking full blows to the face...
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76 Human Monk
6980
prioritize Shuffle and Guard over any other Chi sinks (aka Breath of Fire)
Especially now with the change to Keg Smash hitting all targets (prev. just 3)
Remember also that using BoK while shuffle is still up will stack the time with the existing shuffle, so anytime you have 2 chi and Guard is still on CD, use it on Blackout Kick.
don't forget to weave in Tiger Palm regularily for your Power Guard

By ignoring Breath of Fire for the most part I find I quite often will have 4 chi when Guard is on CD and do two BoK's back to back. For additional AoE threat I will throw a Dizzying Haze down.
It does no damage buy "high" threat. Then while I'm waiting for energy to regen or KG to come off CD, I will rotate targets and Tiger Palm or Jab/Expel Harm them. Clash and Provoke are also your friends, especially if a mob suddenly charges your healer or that happy-go-lucky dps.

Happy Tanking

cheers


Hey, thanks so much!

I guess I should put BoF aside a bit, I don't know why, but I feel really compelled to press that button everytime I have chi... Must...resist XD

Oh, and I wasn't aware that BoK stacked!
Edited by Spiral on 10/3/2012 8:24 AM PDT
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ya, my first 10 levels or so tanking I was BoF...BoF...BoF...
And I was always Chi/Energy Starved.
Then as I got more comfortable with rotations, tanking, etc.. (and reading the web for different information) I learned to do it a bit differently. And now I just about always have Chi/Energy available and near if not always 100% shuffle uptime.
Even have Chi for Touch of Death on occasion. Love doing that to a boss :)

Another thing I try to do... is when a group is down to one mob. I try to make sure that I have a 3 stack of Tiger Palm and store 2-3 chi... then as soon as Guard's CD is down I use Guard in-between pulls, so that I start the next group with a full Power Guard up and extra Chi to use because I don't have to put it up in the first few moments of a fight.

happy tanking
cheers
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