Holy Paladin - Holy Power generation.

90 Blood Elf Paladin
17210
Undergeared or not, i found myself being forced into melee (no choice in the matter) so that i could regen mana as much as possible and also be able to Crusader strike to generate more HoPo in-between HS cd's.

HoPo generation atm feels very very clunky and awkward. HR is unusable unless stacking and even then its only worth it to get the HoPo to use LoD sooner.

Personally i think we need a filler that doesn't cost mana - and doesn't force us into melee - that generates HoPo. First thing that comes to mind was how we used to have to Judge on cd for the mana return and then later it was changed to Judge once a minute to maintain the haste buff etc. Although a larger number of people disliked this i'm sure they would think differently if Judging as Holy generated 1 HoPo. Same as if Crusader Strike became ranged for Holy Paladins and it generated HoPo. (not both - one or the other).

It would be the filler that we need and could help balance out HoPo income. Alternatively i wouldn't mind getting Exorcism back as Ret has it now for HoPo generation.

On another note i think HR would be better off the same as LoD. Its small range is what destroys the spell - i think it would be better with a cleave cap and larger range. The mana cost also only barely feels justified due to it giving HoPo.

Holy Prism would feel nicer with a slight range increase. I'm not sure if its a hit box bug or not but when i Holy Prism a boss that's being moved or kited, i notice that often i hit nothing - not even the tank back peddling the boss out of the Amethyst Pool.

That's my feedback / rant over. Does anyone feel the same?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11780
Holy power generation is EXTREMELY slow yes, especially when avoiding HR or DL on the beacon target just to conserve mana.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17210
I gues what i'm comparing it to is how well and fluent Ret Paly HoPo flows. The new model for Ret's in HoPo generation i thought was awesome. The big kicker i find now whislt being undergeared as Holy is just that - can't generate decent HoPo while avoiding HR and DL because they are too expensive to use, let alone HR being incredibly weak without stacking.
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90 Human Paladin
11525
I have to concur on this one.

I also find myself CS-ing for that extra Holy Power. It is really unnecessary and odd for a Holy Paladin to go in melee range just to do so.

I like the idea of the Judgment mana regen. Make it 30 seconds and a HoPo.

Currently, my Infusion of Light procs go to using Holy Light to conserve mana and getting 100% of the heal to the Beacon. Sadly, I get no HoPo from that.

Holy Prism seems fine to me. However, Holy Radiance isn't the same as what it used to be. It seems more of a waste of mana for an extra Holy Power.
Edited by Packet on 10/5/2012 5:43 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
4805
You don't ~have~ to generate holy power super fast. I think of it more as a resource that I can pool over a period of time, and then use for big burst healing if I need to.

If you think of it like that, and use your normal spells (mainly holy light right now) a little more actively you might feel a little more successful.

You absolutely should never crusader strike though. It provides 1 hopo for 9,000 mana. For me right now, a word of glory heals for 17,556 per hopo, plus 8,778 on the beacon which totals 26,334. That amounts to 2.926 heals per mana, and costs you a gcd, which takes 1 second iirc. So it's 26,334 heals per second, not taking into account the gcd you spend on word of glory.

A simple cast of Holy Light will heal your target and the beacon for a full 26,120, so taken together that's 52,240 heals, and it costs 7,560 mana. We're looking at 6.91 heals per mana. Its heals per second is 24,411.214 for me, and I'm reforging haste away so that's even with very little haste.

Holy light has way better hpm, and the hps is very close. I would argue that the gcd's you spend on more word of glories (you will spend more because you're generating holy power) and the time spent running around to stay in melee for crusader strike far outweighs that minuscule increase in hps. To be honest, even if it was a significant increase in hps I probably wouldn't do it because hpm is so important at this gear level.

But yeah, don't concentrate on rapidly building holy power. Just concentrate on healing with the tools you have.
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90 Tauren Paladin
8535
10/05/2012 06:13 AMPosted by Adraza
You don't ~have~ to generate holy power super fast. I think of it more as a resource that I can pool over a period of time, and then use for big burst healing if I need to.


This is EXACTLY what I was going to say. There's nothing saying you have to generate Holy Power, or use it constantly. In fact, a lot of times, reliance on Holy Power ends up making you even more mana inefficient than no Holy Power at all.

Just store it up and use it as an extra resource. Fights are so predictable in many ways that you can plan very closely to when you will need 5 HP for a LoD -> HR -> LoD.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10325
If you're not pooling your holy power and using crusader strike to build HP just to save mana - you're doing something wrong. Also - using Crusader strike to build HP is not efficient mana usage.

As a Holy Paladin, you only really have 1-2 outlets for HP anyways: single target heal and AoE Heal.

Blizzard cannot actively increase holy power generation without nerfing mana efficiency on paladins - that would make them too overpowered. The concept of Holy Power on HPaladins is to give them better mana management and extra burst healing when needed. So asking for a free, ranged HP generation utility is asking for both a throughput and mana management buff.

In addition, HP generation does pick up when you're AoE healing since it is necessary for Paladins to have access to extra HP.

Blizzard lets you pool up 5 HP for a reason and not just 3 anymore. Ideally you shouldn't be using WoG at 3 stacks unless you really need the burst healing and should only use WoG at 5 stacks if your Holy Shock is about to come off CD.

EDIT: Also, don't compare Retribution's HP building model to holy paladin.
Edited by Bubblewall on 10/5/2012 5:11 PM PDT
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87 Blood Elf Priest
3975
Isn't the point of hpally's really expensive heals that you get HP heals to offset the mana cost? 1 WG every 18 seconds seems like not much.
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90 Human Paladin
4805
There's also Holy Avenger. A 2 min cd which lets every other cast be a free 3 hopo health explosion xD

If we need more hopo than that I don't know what.
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90 Human Paladin
11660
I've taken the Eternal Flame talent. I try to quickly stack a 3HoPo Flame on the tank and then use a 1HoPo Flame one 3 people as it gets a nice amount of healing streaming through beacon.

It feels like just enough healing for the efficiency.

I'll admit, I haven't raided like that yet--tonight, though!

e: Too many of the same word in a sentence.
Edited by Bopsicle on 10/7/2012 5:17 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
5245
I'm not sure if it's the gear or what not but I don't find casting DL that expensive. Now spamming it yes but spamming ANY spell in Mists is expensive, it's what Blizzard wants, now with the nerf to a lot of our mana regen tools, for those who are blood elves anyway, paladins might have it a bit rougher than any of the other classes. However in a raid setting you aren't really required to do all the healing, are you? So the six second CD on HS isn't that big a deal, I'll smack the boss a few times in 25m and let my companion healers take over, if I'm hurting for mana.

@Adraza: I don't know what your healing be it dungeons or Raids but if it is a raid, I want to know what tank you heal that HL's pitiful 26k means much. My Raid's main tank has a whopping 602k HP, Holy light doesn't even register in his health pool really and for a 2 second cast...it's just not worth it, at least not from what I've seen in Mogu`Shan vaults. That being the first 3 bosses.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
NBK
13670
I've found that the selfless healer talent fills a bit of what the OP was talking about. Since every 3 judgements you get a free, instant flash of light that if cast on the beacon target, generates a charge of HP. It's not quite the same as the old system of judging restoring mana but it gives a legit reason to cast it every cd.
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90 Draenei Paladin
7215
You don't ~have~ to generate holy power super fast. I think of it more as a resource that I can pool over a period of time, and then use for big burst healing if I need to.

If you think of it like that, and use your normal spells (mainly holy light right now) a little more actively you might feel a little more successful.

You absolutely should never crusader strike though. It provides 1 hopo for 9,000 mana. For me right now, a word of glory heals for 17,556 per hopo, plus 8,778 on the beacon which totals 26,334. That amounts to 2.926 heals per mana, and costs you a gcd, which takes 1 second iirc. So it's 26,334 heals per second, not taking into account the gcd you spend on word of glory.

A simple cast of Holy Light will heal your target and the beacon for a full 26,120, so taken together that's 52,240 heals, and it costs 7,560 mana. We're looking at 6.91 heals per mana. Its heals per second is 24,411.214 for me, and I'm reforging haste away so that's even with very little haste.

Holy light has way better hpm, and the hps is very close. I would argue that the gcd's you spend on more word of glories (you will spend more because you're generating holy power) and the time spent running around to stay in melee for crusader strike far outweighs that minuscule increase in hps. To be honest, even if it was a significant increase in hps I probably wouldn't do it because hpm is so important at this gear level.

But yeah, don't concentrate on rapidly building holy power. Just concentrate on healing with the tools you have.


Complete agree with everything you have said!! My main heal is Holy Light. Everything you heal with it is 100% return to your beaconed target the tank. Flash of Light is used any oppurtunity you get. Depending on the fight I will wait for my holy powers to stack up for Divine Light or use Word of Glory which scales way up there for hps. And then use Prism every chance i get. I am actually enjoying my new spells more than i have for a long time. Long story short, enjoy what they have given us
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90 Human Paladin
9510
I don't heal often. I've run LFR, 5 mans and normal and heroic DS as a healer when needed. I have noticed a significant slowdown of holy power generation as a Holy paladin and WoG seems to heal for much less or hasn't scaled as much with the larger health pools.

This may be due in part to low end gear as opposed to Dragon Soul gear as well as changes in the way healing is handled in MoP. It's much easier to go oom now and I can't spam anything and none of my heals seem to heal for all that much except Holy Shock on a crit, which happens quite often and honestly is a group saver.

I have a feeling I just haven't quite got comfortable with this tweaked method of healing in MoP compared to what I did in Cata.

That being said I'd love for Judgement to give holy power. I am forced into melee, switching targets to the boss to use Crusaders's Strike to increase hp generation. Then I have to switch back to the party member that needs healing. It's a lot more frantic now and I don't like it. I don't feel there is significant reward as a plate healer for being forced into melee and then suffering the damage melee players suffer.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13215
If you increase our HoPo generation without taking power or mana elsewhere, we become incredibly unbalanced.

More frequent HoPo generation would mean our finishers would need to be made weaker to compensate, or mana cost of other spells would need to become higher to even out the now more frequent and potent free heals.

Honestly, after going 4/6 this week, I felt very powerful despite my slower-than-Cata HoPo regen. If you feel that you can't output the healing you need without higher HoPo generation, you're either doing something terribly wrong with your mana conservation, or your gear isn't up to par.

Playstyle and or gear tweaks eliminates the need to have more frequent HoPo generation.

EDIT: Also, why are you people using Crusader Strike? It does nothing to prop up your mana and misses all the time. Take it right off your bars. We cannot bomb heal anymore without running oom. Period. Refusing to adjust your playstyle and expectations to meet the reality hurts your whole group/raid team. Complaining about it on the forums hurts general knowledge about our spec.
Edited by Faythe on 10/9/2012 12:09 AM PDT
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