Ghost Crawler on twitter about priests.

90 Undead Priest
4210
10/05/2012 01:43 PMPosted by Snowfox
He cannot make bricks without clay.


The phrase goes, "... cannot make bricks without straw."

Otherwise, I do agree with you.
Edited by Dandrison on 10/5/2012 2:07 PM PDT
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90 Undead Priest
18665
I don't know how else to explain it, but it's very clear he's not just disregarding complaints. Stop reading everything with your sky-is-falling glasses.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5755
10/05/2012 02:07 PMPosted by Nixxe
I don't know how else to explain it, but it's very clear he's not just disregarding complaints. Stop reading everything with your sky-is-falling glasses.


I never said the sky was falling and I have even said in other threads I am going to keep playing my priest regardless. That being said I thought his responses appeared a bit detached and ambiguous. As others have said this could just be his style when it comes to these things but I do not see what is wrong with giving more straight forward "We do not see a problem at the moment but we are paying close attention and will look at any data presented" or "We are aware of possible concerns and are looking but it is early please give us logs etc if you have them" etc.
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MVP
90 Night Elf Priest
10665
The phrase goes, "... cannot make bricks without straw."


Holmes: Data, data, data, I cannot make bricks without clay.

variation on “ "Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay." ” from The Adventure of the Copper Beeches

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes_%282009_film%29

While I do think it is necessary to come with some evidence when making complaints it is a bit off putting to be dismissed out of hand. In the end this is a business relationship and we are customers. It feels a bit as if they are always saying "Do our jobs for us.


Please understand I've been on these forums a long time. I've seen every class make that argument before - and it's devoid of any substance that helps them. I've also been a priest for eight years and have become protective of them. So when I say not to use that argument because it doesn't help us - it's because it doesn't. There are things more important than playing the "I'm a customer.." card - that's not a new card. Everyone in the forum game recognizes it and immediately disregards it.

What helps us more than anything is data. GC asked for feedback - "Why do you feel ineffective?"

Answer that. Answer it with data.
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90 Pandaren Priest
9955
Standard response for this type of thing. Anyone who has seen GC posts knows that the devs approach class balance issues with tons of ambiguity and in general prefer to not respond other than to ask for more concrete feedback when the QQ and circle jerk of misery becomes too much.


This

On a more serious note: I do think Blizzard devs ought to be looking at World of Logs themselves, and presenting their conclusions. I don't think asking how they felt ineffective is wrong. I think people just need to understand the benefit of responding to those questions with numerical evidence and objective understanding.


... and this.

I've watched GC long enough in the role forums to know his approach to all this. What will help is giving him facts, data, numbers - real examples. What will absolutely hurt us is throwing a tantrum.

Data data data. He cannot make bricks without clay.


They have been fed data since early beta. The class has been stagnant. People are just losing faith in the developers... can you blame them?

Come on Snow, I know you read the Beta forums, you know the response we got.

-10% to the cost of healing spells...

We all knew it wouldn't fix the class' performance issues, we told the devs it wouldn't. Our intelligent posts, our data, our pleas were all dismissed.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5755
10/05/2012 02:35 PMPosted by Snowfox
The phrase goes, "... cannot make bricks without straw."


Holmes: Data, data, data, I cannot make bricks without clay.

variation on “ "Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay." ” from The Adventure of the Copper Beeches

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes_%282009_film%29

While I do think it is necessary to come with some evidence when making complaints it is a bit off putting to be dismissed out of hand. In the end this is a business relationship and we are customers. It feels a bit as if they are always saying "Do our jobs for us.


Please understand I've been on these forums a long time. I've seen every class make that argument before - and it's devoid of any substance that helps them. I've also been a priest for eight years and have become protective of them. So when I say not to use that argument because it doesn't help us - it's because it doesn't. There are things more important than playing the "I'm a customer.." card - that's not a new card. Everyone in the forum game recognizes it and immediately disregards it.

What helps us more than anything is data. GC asked for feedback - "Why do you feel ineffective?"

Answer that. Answer it with data.


My honest question here is what data could we possibly provide them that they do not already have access to? I can understand them wanting us to be a bit more specific than "We suck" but when priests say they are struggling for mana in raids and give the raid and bosses I find it hard to believe they can't take a look from there on their own without a power point presentation from a player.
Edited by Hemorrhagic on 10/5/2012 3:03 PM PDT
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90 Goblin Priest
14160
We gave so much data during the beta it was crazy. And look what it's gotten us.
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90 Human Priest
8505
I think GC is great for the community but he seems to have lost touch with reality. I enjoy playing my priest and only wish that Blizz would rethink our current design.

Give disc Divine Hymn back
Let healing spells trigger evangelism
Rethink Rapture
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MVP
90 Night Elf Priest
10665

My honest question here is what data could we possibly provide them that they do not already have access to? I can understand them wanting us to be a bit more specific than "We suck" but when priests say they are struggling for mana in raids and give the raid and bosses I find it hard to believe they can't take a look from there on their own without a power point presentation from a player.


It's not just about what they have access to - it's about what's easy for them to digest. Blizzard arguably has access to all data everywhere - ever... but then there's never any point to posting anything ever either. However GC is just one person and it helps to compile that data for them.

One thing we have today that we did not have a week ago, or in beta - are the practical literal results of the raiding since tuesday. Disc=mitigation discussions aside when we discuss hps, what's needed are concise clear (and polite) dissections of the problems coupled with hard inarguable data.
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90 Pandaren Priest
9955

My honest question here is what data could we possibly provide them that they do not already have access to? I can understand them wanting us to be a bit more specific than "We suck" but when priests say they are struggling for mana in raids and give the raid and bosses I find it hard to believe they can't take a look from there on their own without a power point presentation from a player.


It's not just about what they have access to - it's about what's easy for them to digest. Blizzard arguably has access to all data everywhere - ever... but then there's never any point to posting anything ever either. However GC is just one person and it helps to compile that data for them.

One thing we have today that we did not have a week ago, or in beta - are the practical literal results of the raiding since tuesday. Disc=mitigation discussions aside when we discuss hps, what's needed are concise clear (and polite) dissections of the problems coupled with hard inarguable data.


Is it not interesting though, that the theorycrafters from the Beta were 100% correct in their estimates of where Disc would be at launch?

And yet time and time again they are dismissed with "It'll be alright at launch, promise."
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MVP
90 Night Elf Priest
10665

Is it not interesting though, that the theorycrafters from the Beta were 100% correct in their estimates of where Disc would be at launch?

And yet time and time again they are dismissed with "It'll be alright at launch, promise."


Before /LFD was released I had strong reservations about the damage it would do to realm cohesion... and I was proven utterly right.

However that doesn't help right *now* at all. To be right about the past doesn't buy you much. You have to be active in creating the future.
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90 Undead Priest
18665
10/05/2012 02:14 PMPosted by Hemorrhagic
I don't know how else to explain it, but it's very clear he's not just disregarding complaints. Stop reading everything with your sky-is-falling glasses.


I never said the sky was falling and I have even said in other threads I am going to keep playing my priest regardless. That being said I thought his responses appeared a bit detached and ambiguous. As others have said this could just be his style when it comes to these things but I do not see what is wrong with giving more straight forward "We do not see a problem at the moment but we are paying close attention and will look at any data presented" or "We are aware of possible concerns and are looking but it is early please give us logs etc if you have them" etc.


Well you see, that's the real kicker. He didn't even say it, but you still assumed he pretty much meant what you wanted him to say and you still seem upset about it. Yeah, you may not be cursing his name and demanding his head on a pike, but you do still seem to be a little disconcerted. Others of course are anywhere from concerned to infuriated all because of the things he never said. Now imagine if he actually said he thought priests were fine, as opposed to asking for more information and details and people just inferring that he believes priests are fine. There would be a coup.

Fact of the matter is that when people are passionate or otherwise emotionally invested in something, in this case a game that is in a lot of ways a very dear hobby in many people's lives, it can be very hard to choose the right words to smooth things over. On top of that he has to address the WoW playerbase at large, a group made up of many different people with many different preferences in terms of what they do and do not want to hear. He could say the same exact thing six times in six ways and I can guarantee you each time he'd upset different people or even the same people who are just looking for reasons to be upset. It's really a no win situation when people are so determined to dissect everything you say for every last little straw of meaning they can grasp on to.

If you think things need to change, that's great. But rather than offering up conjecture as to the personal view of one dev, you'd be better off to offer up data, arguments, and even personal experience to back up your issues. Just keep in mind that just because it doesn't change immediately or ever it does not mean that you were ignored. The devs sometimes just take things in different directions or your view is not representative of the overall picture.
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90 Goblin Priest
4830
this is amazing, ppls express their concern in mid beta regarding priests and GC tells then that "once u learn the fight, everything will be fine".
Pre MOP, ppl still expressing concerns, only now no feedback, no blue posts because all the blue posts were focused on warriors, monks, mages, locks.. I know because everyday i used to see the mmo champion website, and i almost didnt see nothing about healing specs of the priest class ( dont take me wrong, i did saw a lot of blue posts regarding shadow). At this stage, every concern was shut down, because the " classes are balanced at lvl 90" argument was dominant amoung this community.
Now, we are in the early stages of raids in MoP, we got tons of complaints, tons of logs showing an amazing diference in HPS comapared to all the other classes , and after all this we have to proof to this person the faults off design ?
I mean.. Jesus... we already posted tons of feedbacks, tons of sugestions, tons of concerns and logs.. lots of logs.. what more can we provide ?
Do we need to break down the mana costs, casting time and healing done of our spells compared to the other classes to proof our concerns ? I honestly dont know how to do that.. i do not have the skill.. If this was Neverwinter nights, i could pull something up, because the mechanics were simple and were right there in the combat logs...

Our data relies on WoL and personal experience, this two factors should be enough to at least open a honest discourse with the devs.. but they keep ignoring us... no blue dares too touch on the issue and i honest god dont understand why... dont they have personnel watching the progressions of the raids ? IS there data diferent from WoL ?

i cant understand this, specialy when its related to disc.. because its like they are choosing a spec to fail.. and what do they have to gain with this ? nothing.. thats why it bothers me... its just plain neglection..
Edited by Rockos on 10/5/2012 4:50 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
8200
How would they know the class is broke, none of them play priests or read the forms...
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5755
10/05/2012 03:39 PMPosted by Nixxe


I never said the sky was falling and I have even said in other threads I am going to keep playing my priest regardless. That being said I thought his responses appeared a bit detached and ambiguous. As others have said this could just be his style when it comes to these things but I do not see what is wrong with giving more straight forward "We do not see a problem at the moment but we are paying close attention and will look at any data presented" or "We are aware of possible concerns and are looking but it is early please give us logs etc if you have them" etc.


Well you see, that's the real kicker. He didn't even say it, but you still assumed he pretty much meant what you wanted him to say and you still seem upset about it. Yeah, you may not be cursing his name and demanding his head on a pike, but you do still seem to be a little disconcerted. Others of course are anywhere from concerned to infuriated all because of the things he never said. Now imagine if he actually said he thought priests were fine, as opposed to asking for more information and details and people just inferring that he believes priests are fine. There would be a coup.

Fact of the matter is that when people are passionate or otherwise emotionally invested in something, in this case a game that is in a lot of ways a very dear hobby in many people's lives, it can be very hard to choose the right words to smooth things over. On top of that he has to address the WoW playerbase at large, a group made up of many different people with many different preferences in terms of what they do and do not want to hear. He could say the same exact thing six times in six ways and I can guarantee you each time he'd upset different people or even the same people who are just looking for reasons to be upset. It's really a no win situation when people are so determined to dissect everything you say for every last little straw of meaning they can grasp on to.

If you think things need to change, that's great. But rather than offering up conjecture as to the personal view of one dev, you'd be better off to offer up data, arguments, and even personal experience to back up your issues. Just keep in mind that just because it doesn't change immediately or ever it does not mean that you were ignored. The devs sometimes just take things in different directions or your view is not representative of the overall picture.


No one will ever be happy with every answer but I do believe his answers are going to cause more problems than they solve with ambiguity and evasiveness. I could be wrong about GCs responses but that is the impression I gathered from those answers. I have not offered up any personal data or logs but others have both recently and before release on top of the current data Blizzard has to look at on their own. I would also challenge that if they do not see a problem offer up their own data. We are pushed for data and logs but rarely if ever see any in return from what I can tell. This creates a rather one sided and contentious relationship in my opinion.

I have played this game since vanilla and a priest since vanilla and I do not often visit the forums unless I am experiencing problems. I do not expect automatic changes but in my opinion they should work a little harder on communication with the player base. I could be completely wrong but I think they should give more open responses a try. There are always going to be trolls but they might be surprised by the reaction if they were more upfront with us. I refuse to believe they are not aware of rather obvious trends and issues until they are pressed by weight of numbers and mounds of data from players especially when even other classes are pointing it out like tanks in the case of priests. This is not some subtle nuance with the priest class only caught when you have near computer like perfection from a player.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12855
Generally, like Celebrities, it's generally not the person himself who monitors twitter. They usually have a publicist, intern, or assistant do that. So seeing that response makes me think that someone was fishing for actual concerns. If it gets prominent enough, then the information actually goes to GC in some type of report, and that's when you can get more of a real response.

Twitter is just a social media tool. So I wouldn't overreact to that. But yes, respond to that with as much concrete concerns and use the tool for what it's intended to be - a way to pass information.
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90 Human Priest
8620
My honest question here is what data could we possibly provide them that they do not already have access to? I can understand them wanting us to be a bit more specific than "We suck" but when priests say they are struggling for mana in raids and give the raid and bosses I find it hard to believe they can't take a look from there on their own without a power point presentation from a player.


This.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12435
10/05/2012 04:48 PMPosted by Rockos
Our data relies on WoL and personal experience, this two factors should be enough to at least open a honest discourse with the devs.. but they keep ignoring us... no blue dares too touch on the issue and i honest god dont understand why... dont they have personnel watching the progressions of the raids ? IS there data diferent from WoL ?


It's been 4 days.

I don't get why people ignore this.

4 days.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7175
My honest question here is what data could we possibly provide them that they do not already have access to? I can understand them wanting us to be a bit more specific than "We suck" but when priests say they are struggling for mana in raids and give the raid and bosses I find it hard to believe they can't take a look from there on their own without a power point presentation from a player.
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