Heroic: Garajal the Spiritbinder (Blues Look)

MVP - Technical Support
100 Human Warrior
20515
10/12/2012 01:33 PMPosted by Danqt
The biggest issue is the fact that there are 3 Voodoo dolls in 10man, compared to the 4 in 25man with a total of 15 extra players... Which increases the likely hood of huge burst dramatically.

and the boss does DOUBLE tank damage on 25 man. essencially making voodo dolls require twice the healing.

so pretend like 25 man actually has 1 tank taking double damage, and 3 dps taking double damage vs 10 man with 1 tank and 2 dps.

that's an 8 to 3 ratio or 2.66x damage output increase going from 10 to 25 man. You need to see the bigger picture. if 25 mans are 4 healing it it's because they are really good guilds. not because there isn't anything to heal. You have to see the damage value of 25 man at what it is, not number of debuffs.
Edited by Omegal on 10/12/2012 1:53 PM PDT
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90 Human Monk
14695
Now onto Shadowy Attacks (a random ability he casts once every ~8 seconds on the main tank).
The highest hit from one of these attacks I've seen was around ~200,000 in 25H, we frequently have hits for 160,000+ this is duplicated to all voodoo doll targets(since the tank will always have voodoo doll)


10/12/2012 01:43 PMPosted by Omegal
and the boss does DOUBLE tank damage on 25 man


k, so who's telling the truth?
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
k, so who's telling the truth?


If you're using that kind of logic, taking a snapshot of Shadowy attacks (which is one ability) and comparing it to a statement on overall tank damage (which is all, including normal melee) are talking about two different things.

It's entirely possible that both, neither or one of them is telling the truth if you just take those two statements.
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90 Pandaren Monk
13610
http://puu.sh/1eahm 10H

double would mean 320,000 - 400,000 hits regularly.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
10/12/2012 02:22 PMPosted by Danqt
double would mean 320,000 - 400,000 hits regularly.


Overall, not per ability.

They can't make 25 man bosses hit overall doublely hard, because tanks don't have that high a threshold of stamina.
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90 Pandaren Monk
13610
10/12/2012 02:25 PMPosted by Postonforums
double would mean 320,000 - 400,000 hits regularly.


Overall, not per ability.

They can't make 25 man bosses hit overall doublely hard, because tanks don't have that high a threshold of stamina.


overall does not matter, burst potential is the problem on this encounter, This attack goes off every 8-10 seconds.

then the likely hood of taking another 200k damage via chaining voodoo dolls since we only have 4 other players who can possibly soak is very high.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
overall does not matter, burst potential is the problem on this encounter, This attack goes off every 8-10 seconds.


Burst potential is a combination of melee and special attacks; not (one set of) special attacks taken in isolation.

If you find it hard to believe this his regular melee combined with special attacks combined with aoe damage (through Voodoo Dolls) does significantly more damage to a 25-man tank, I have to wonder which game you've been playing. Probably not the game where Sinestra melees 25-man tanks for 90-100k and 10-man tanks for ~60k, or the game where Void Bolt does 5k a tick to a 10-man tank and almost 30k a tick to a 25-man tank.
Edited by Slashlove on 10/12/2012 3:04 PM PDT
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90 Human Priest
0
i just wanted to say HI to the OP and let him know that plauge is still recuiting all lvl 80s for 25 man naxx....
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90 Worgen Druid
11595
http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier14_10

http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier14_25

The statistics speak for themselves.

And quoting this just because.

You guys are pretty clueless to be honest. 25 mans *have* to 4 heal it right now because of the enrage timer, unless they have incredibly geared dps already. The guild Depraved on EU-Twilight's hammer 2 healed it on 10 man, and managed to kill it 42 seconds before enrage. Get a clue, 10 man is a joke compared to 25 man. Paragon showed you 10 manners how bad you really are.

Edited by Desiration on 10/12/2012 3:38 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
11620
I wonder what the guilds that downed Feng using a certain trinket are going to do now...you nerfed their strat into the ground and it's going to be so hard to actually fight the boss. :(
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16450
The statistics that 10 man guilds are not very serious? Do you think that somehow the number of 10 man guilds that have done it compared to the number of 25 man guilds tells you how balanced it is?

Paragon showed you what a serious hardcore guild can do, they crushed the instance.

I watched the 10 man kills on twitch and the paragon kill video. You can watch it too. Try watching a 25 man heroic stream of the fight, its totally different.

Edit: Try looking at the kill videos independent of your assumptions. 10 man kills have the boss at 70% before the first totem. Nobody ever gets in danger of dying. Try only using hybrid healing on 10 man and that gives you a better estimate of how 25 mans have to heal the fight.
Edited by Killmour on 10/12/2012 3:51 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
9770
I'm confused why some people on here are saying "no guild has 10 manned this boss" which is obviously wrong
Or how people are "forced to 3 heal on 10 man" my guild did it fine 2 healing with a hpally and rsham, just have to go down with totem, top people off, jump back and spam dem expensive heals on the people that have been voodoo dolled (who should be stacked to make it easier)
Gara'jal and Elegon are easily the 2 most difficult fights in the raid though since both are intense on healing and require heavy dps
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90 Pandaren Monk
11480
I'm confused why some people on here are saying "no guild has 10 manned this boss" which is obviously wrong
Or how people are "forced to 3 heal on 10 man" my guild did it fine 2 healing with a hpally and rsham, just have to go down with totem, top people off, jump back and spam dem expensive heals on the people that have been voodoo dolled (who should be stacked to make it easier)
Gara'jal and Elegon are easily the 2 most difficult fights in the raid though since both are intense on healing and require heavy dps


Are you talking about heroic?
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100 Dwarf Warrior
17145
10/12/2012 01:08 PMPosted by Crithto
  • No hotfixes or changes to this encounter have been applied to the game since Tuesday night. In a general sense, we avoid making significant tuning adjustments to encounters (other than exploit fixes or major bugfixes) until after a raid week has concluded. This is the fairest approach for all players that avoids diminishing any current accomplishments, or exacerbating any current struggles.

  • I hope you leave the encounter alone. You made the mistake of nerfing Yor'sahj after ONE WEEK of heroic raiding last tier and it went from being a fun challenge (that 9 guilds killed ANYWAY that first week) to a joke of a boss that nobody will ever remember. I mean, we're still coming out of dungeon 463s, give us a chance to experience some progression here.
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    90 Undead Priest
    11550
    If you call yourself a serious raider, PLEASE stop calling for nerfs, they are not needed, if you can't get the boss down week 1 you simply need more skill or more gear, this is HEROIC - stop trying to turn this game into a joke and leave the challenge in the game.

    P.S - TY Blizz for not caving to the nerf calls, it is phenomenally disheartening to have a boss nerfed so early.
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    92 Troll Rogue
    12600
    The statistics that 10 man guilds are not very serious? Do you think that somehow the number of 10 man guilds that have done it compared to the number of 25 man guilds tells you how balanced it is?

    Paragon showed you what a serious hardcore guild can do, they crushed the instance.

    I watched the 10 man kills on twitch and the paragon kill video. You can watch it too. Try watching a 25 man heroic stream of the fight, its totally different.

    Edit: Try looking at the kill videos independent of your assumptions. 10 man kills have the boss at 70% before the first totem. Nobody ever gets in danger of dying. Try only using hybrid healing on 10 man and that gives you a better estimate of how 25 mans have to heal the fight.


    *Paragon showed you what a serious hardcore guild with a legion of people to help 10 to 15 gear up can do*. Don't get me wrong, they're WAY better than me but they're also 15 ilvls above most people because they had the luxury of running multiple 25man runs to gear their 10man group out. Seems to me that this is an advantage that won't go unnoticed by many high end guilds.

    A lot of the complaints I read were about the burst near insta gibbing people because of the shadowy minions. 25mans have more CDs to counteract that burst. Basically Paragon's strategy was to clearly burst everything down as much as possible to make p1 as short as possible. Since they're nearly 15 ilvls above almost everyone else, they destroy adds too so this minimizes the burst that people were complaining about. Paragon and the other video I've seen have had their healers doing hybrid stuff too so the strat for 10 and 25 man seem fairly similar. Have to really give them a lot of credit for the strategy and effort they put in but what people should really be looking at is the average ilvl of the 10mans who have killed it vs the average ilvl of the 25mans who have killed it for an idea of what the issue is. If it's more than 5 ilvls, clearly either 25man is too easy or 10man has an issue that's causing people to need more gear. It's too bad that I don't really see our guild getting much of a chance at this boss before tuesday when they'll probably hotfix it but the few pulls we did definitely seemed a bit insane. From what one of our healers said, the burst seemed insane because if you take a voodoo hit and then one of those 3 people get focused by adds, you get gibbed. They should still investigate and see what the issue is. The people QQ'ing aren't normally QQ'ers.

    Personally though I really wish Blizzard would just get on with making 1 raid size because this 10 vs 25man is really stupid. They all seem to have a couple easier fights and then a couple harder ones and we could eliminate that with a one size fits all raid.
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    85 Human Paladin
    11570
    I agree with one raid size. let it be 40man big, so you, your friends and their friends can all fit in the raid without having to sit out.
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