As a rogue in PVP.

58 Worgen Hunter
6065


rogues being tanky? where?


Rogues were THE tankiest melee class in cata more so than warriors and dks who got gibbed instantly. Recoup, cheat death, clos + vanish. evasion. and combat readiness made rogues very tanky.


How does Cata PvP have any baring on MoP PvP?
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90 Human Warlock
14290
10/06/2012 01:34 PMPosted by Dochaelian
probably trolling; giving me the reason to flag your post.
Oh, shut up!


You make my point.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7695
Rogues should be completely changed, because right now, or they are OP, or they are underpowered.
Edited by Aesyrr on 10/6/2012 9:09 PM PDT
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90 Orc Warrior
10290

and what does it have to do anything with current state of rogues?


Only as a comparison. Rogue surviablity in Cata was too high and was quite rightly nerfed. Rogue surviabilty is where it should be in Mists.

Unfortuanely damage and mobilty were also nerfed, and excessively IMO. Rogue damage and mobilty are NOT where they should be in Mists.
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58 Worgen Hunter
6065

and what does it have to do anything with current state of rogues?


Only as a comparison. Rogue surviablity in Cata was too high and was quite rightly nerfed. Rogue surviabilty is where it should be in Mists.

Unfortuanely damage and mobilty were also nerfed, and excessively IMO. Rogue damage and mobilty are NOT where they should be in Mists.


*survivability
*mobility
*unfortunately

And you're wrong. Survivability is NOT where it should be. A developer taking notes of our grievances in PvP should tell you that they recognize it as such.
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90 Undead Rogue
13680
10/07/2012 06:31 AMPosted by Derpenstein
And you're wrong. Survivability is NOT where it should be. A developer taking notes of our grievances in PvP should tell you that they recognize it as such.

Of course Rogue defenses are going to be low if you ask the Rogue community as a whole if they are. That doesn't mean that's the case. That thread is going to be loaded with people who are going to say that we were fine at the end of Cata, and that's simply not true.
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Im happy that rogues are finally balanced

If only blizzard could balance out mages i would be one happy hunter.
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90 Troll Druid
7460
Rogues are now balanced and require somewhat minimal skill and effort every other class needs to put in for a kill.

Welcome to balance it's fun down here.


rogues are one of the hardest classes to play and of course your comment would be coming from a warrior who is extremely unbalanced at the moment. I dont want to wait a whole xpac like cata before rogues got a buff, at least balance the classes so everyone has a wide selection of classes to pick, instead of leaning toward to more "OP" ones at the moment, like out friend Greil.
Edited by Iceybro on 10/7/2012 12:29 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
7460
10/06/2012 07:29 PMPosted by Derpenstein
Rogues were THE tankiest melee class in cata more so than warriors and dks who got gibbed instantly. Recoup, cheat death, clos + vanish. evasion. and combat readiness made rogues very tanky.


Understand the class roles before firing a statement that is invalid. Rogues are meant to be illusive, quick, agile... sure their burst output was a little high but take that away and you still have a generic rogue. Blizzard has now made pvp a mongo sesh, where BM hunters and arms warriors run in, pop all cds, and global someone.
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1 Orc Warrior
0
Im happy that rogues are finally balanced

If only blizzard could balance out mages i would be one happy hunter.


lol 2button beastmaster.
The nerf bat is coming for you too my friend.
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58 Worgen Hunter
6065
10/07/2012 07:39 AMPosted by Kanoi
And you're wrong. Survivability is NOT where it should be. A developer taking notes of our grievances in PvP should tell you that they recognize it as such.

Of course Rogue defenses are going to be low if you ask the Rogue community as a whole if they are. That doesn't mean that's the case. That thread is going to be loaded with people who are going to say that we were fine at the end of Cata, and that's simply not true.


I'm not trying to be argumentative, but are you saying that if a whole community speaks out and says "our survivability is low", you're just going to write it off as bias?

From what I've seen people's bias usually comes into play when talking about how to buff their own class, or discussing the potential strengths of other classes.

But all of that is a distraction from what I was trying to say to that one guy- that obviously Blizzard agrees that something is wrong with our class when one of their own developers comes into the rogue forums and let's us know he's listening.
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90 Undead Rogue
13680
10/07/2012 04:53 PMPosted by Derpenstein
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but are you saying that if a whole community speaks out and says "our survivability is low", you're just going to write it off as bias?

I'm saying of the majority of the vocal minority is going to say that everything about us is bad right now and that we should go back to how we were in Cataclysm, which indirectly makes that thread far less valuable than any any hope spot can make of it.
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58 Worgen Hunter
6065
Rogues are wanted for smokebeam and their help in chain stunning FC's to death.

Other than that you guys are balanced and useless.


...?
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1 Orc Warrior
0
10/07/2012 07:03 PMPosted by Irrwisch
the reason why Blizz gave us recup back then was because rogues were dead horses on arena, you just had to train them and they would be dead, right now we are back to that state except every other class has some kind of self healing that is by far superiour to ours while we still do little to no dmg outside of shb


The same case with all agility leather. WW and Feral as well.
You might say they're hybrids with "better" self-healing (itself a debatable point), but they also lack the control and ability to disappear entirely that rogues have. Right now, of the 3 agility leather specs... rogues are actually in the best spot, followed by druids (can use travel to escape), and in last are monks (just get blown apart)

But all 3 are pretty much free HKs to anyone that's competent.
Edited by Paulbathehut on 10/7/2012 7:08 PM PDT
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85 Gnome Rogue
2110


Only as a comparison. Rogue surviablity in Cata was too high and was quite rightly nerfed. Rogue surviabilty is where it should be in Mists.

Unfortuanely damage and mobilty were also nerfed, and excessively IMO. Rogue damage and mobilty are NOT where they should be in Mists.


*survivability
*mobility
*unfortunately

And you're wrong. Survivability is NOT where it should be. A developer taking notes of our grievances in PvP should tell you that they recognize it as such.


I actually agree with the Warrior, at least in part. Subtlety Rogue survivability DID have to come down, at least in part. Most significantly, Blizzard needed to remove Energetic Recovery from Recuperate. Whether they needed to remove the Quickening healing bonus and Improved Recuperate is debatable. They didn't need to remove Elusiveness and shove in Prep/Step.

Still, Blizzard compensated a little with the Recuperate glyph and Leeching Poison (which needs to change to damage done, not strikes done). That's a good thing. It gives Rogues who like high self-heals the ability to have them (LP + Recuperate glyph) and Rogues who think it's out of character some other options to pursue. That only leaves the Elusiveness and Prep issues.

------

Except for Elusiveness & Prep, I don't think Rogues need better survivability, I don't think that's an issue. Consider for a moment CC in WoW.
(1) What has the general trend been? Up. Many classes now have compatible or easier/better CC than Rogues.
(2) What has the Rogue trend been? DOWN!!! It's not just about CS->KS, 4.0.6 led to pretty severe CC duration nerfs, and MoP has led to some increases.

But the fact that other classes have more CC (and Rogues less) is not enough to explain Rogue drop in survivability, for that, we have to look at the other side of the coin: CC breaks and immunity.

Despite Rogues traditionally (but now not so) great CC, Rogues themselves are extremely vulnerable to CC (particularly stuns, fears, and capacitates). While other classes with build in CC breaks/immunities/resistances have seen an increase in their ability to CC Rogues, with the exception of BoS, Rogues have not seen a corresponding increase to otherwise counter other class' CC ... quite the opposite in fact.

So I agree with the Warrior, Rogue healing is about where it ought to be (LP could use a look-at). The source of poor Rogue survivability is largely due to loss of Elusiveness, Prep in availability due to gap closer need, and CC counters that haven't risen with other class' greater access to CC.
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