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100 Draenei Mage
13130
Some feedback:

I really hate dailies. Like... really hate them. It would be nice to have a way to earn rep without doing the dailies, such as having a tabard for each faction like in Cata.

The main reason why I hate dailies is two-fold:

1) WoW's quest variation is too limited. The quests are different themes, but in essence all quests in WoW fall into a few categories such as kill quests, drop quests, etc...

2) In addition to the overall repetitive nature of WoW's quest, there are only so many daily quests (even though there are a few). Plus the fact that there's so many to do each day, it's easy to get worn out after just a few days of dailies.

(Also a small note: arcane feels really weak compared to frost. It's super ironic that Frost Bomb is better for arcane than Nether Tempest =/)
10/05/2012 07:11 PMPosted by Crithto
One of the most asked questions so far is, what gives with the tabard changes? When we introduced reputation tabards in The Burning Crusade, they were set to be used as a means to gain attunement for raiding. Sadly, the specificity of each tabard made it so they discouraged players from running dungeons together. If one player needed reputation from one dungeon, while his friend needed it for another, the two ended up not playing together when they would have liked to. You saw the shift away from this philosophy during Wrath of the Lich King and on into Cataclysm. For Mists of Pandaria, though, we feel dungeons are already rewarding so it made the most sense to have reputation earned by doing things for each particular faction. The various factions are what really bring a lot of the flavor and character to the world of Pandaria. We weren’t very happy that the status quo in Cataclysm was to virtually ignore most factions and what they’re about, by instead doing the fairly unrelated task of running dungeons. It provided a way for players to essentially double dip on rewards from dungeons and faction reputations simply by putting on a shirt when queuing. In Mists we’ve changed the reward structure in a way that we feel makes for a better, more diverse gameplay experience.


I can respect this philosophy, and I admit reputations in Cata did feel largely irrelevant due to the tabard system. The problem arises from the fact that you've tied one of the main reward systems for dungeons, valor points, to factions, leading many of us to feel we're obligated to do both dailies and dungeons in order to progress.

If reputation weren't such a big deal in Pandaria, the lack of tabards wouldn't be as big a problem, but greatly increasing the importance of rep at the same time as you make rep much more time-consuming to acquire is a horrible double whammy and is killing the idea of choice MoP was supposedly based on.
70 Orc Death Knight
955

One of the most asked questions so far is, what gives with the tabard changes? When we introduced reputation tabards in The Burning Crusade, they were set to be used as a means to gain attunement for raiding.


Tabards in BC were purely used as vanity items. Didn't need 'em because instances gave set faction reputation. Why not just go right back to that method?
Edited by Valrae on 10/5/2012 8:30 PM PDT
1 Gnome Rogue
0
10/05/2012 07:11 PMPosted by Crithto
In Mists we’ve changed the reward structure in a way that we feel makes for a better, more diverse gameplay experience.

The "better" more diverse experience would've been one based on player choice. Allowing players to choose the combination of questing, dungeons, pvp, and raids that makes sense to them would've been fantastic.

But instead of optional diversity, what you gave us was forced diversity. The truth was I loved the versions of WoW that allowed me to concentrate my time on the activities I enjoyed. All dungeons and all raids was a fantastic game. To me that's whats unique about WoW and why I play here.

The other major thing you did was change the minimum viable hours per week a raider could play. At the end of cata I raided for 9 hours a week and was logged on for maybe 10. That was perfect. That's also about what my schedule can afford. Now, if I want to be on that same 9 hour team, I also have to sign up for what seems like at least another 9 hours or probably even more of dailies. How is that a good thing? And here's a hint, I'm not trading 9 hours of raiding for 9 hours of dailies. If that's my only choice, my preference is to not play at all.
Edited by Shead on 10/5/2012 8:30 PM PDT
The "better" more diverse experience would've been one based on player choice. Allowing players to choose the combination of questing, dungeons, pvp, and raids that makes sense to them would've been fantastic.

But instead of optional diversity, what you gave us was forced diversity. The truth was I loved the versions of WoW that allowed me to concentrate my time on the activities I enjoyed. All dungeons and all raids was a fantastic game. To me that's whats unique about WoW and why I play here.


This.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9305
10/05/2012 07:11 PMPosted by Crithto
We weren’t very happy that the status quo in Cataclysm was to virtually ignore most factions and what they’re about, by instead doing the fairly unrelated task of running dungeons. It provided a way for players to essentially double dip on rewards from dungeons and faction reputations simply by putting on a shirt when queuing.


I think you may potentially be making an importantly inaccurate assumption in this part of your statement. You make it sound like players would have focused on faction gain through other methods should the tabbard option not have been available. I'm not sure that is the case. I think after Burning Crusade and the immensely time consuming and boring task of grinding rep with so many factions (Keepers of Time, Consortium, Netherwing Flight, the people at Garadar in Nagrand that I can't remember the name of, Sunwell Offensive, Cenarian Circle, Sporeghar, Lower City, Ogrilla, the flight people in Western Blades Edge, etc. etc.) players may have just been sick of the rep. grind. I'm not sure that players would have spend alot of time working with factions without the tabard options. If the tabard option had not been presented, players may have still chosen not to focus on and experience the faction grind. Even at level 85 when I recently ground out the rep with Netherwing Flight it was painful and theorically, because of my relatively high level, it probably took me half the time it would have at level 70. Historically grinding faction rep is jsut not interesting. It's just another set of dailies to kill X number of those and gather X number of such and such an item. The reward for doing so is usually a bunch of items you don't want and one really cool item that you do all the work for (i.e. the pet, mount, or items you had to have). Unlike with Burning Crusade where you did rep grinding for nifty cool sporty items, rep grinding in Wrath of the Lich King and Cataclysm became mandatory... again not making it any more interessting... just mandatory. If you showed up for a raid and didn't have that shoulder or head enchant, god help you.

Personally, I really liked the tabard option because I had no intention of being forced into the rep grind for every faction, so the tabard gave me an option to gain rep, which I wouldn't have otherwise done.

If you remove the rep grind from tabards, i'm not sure you're going to see an increase in faction rep gain, in fact you may see a decline. It'll be interesting to find out. Of course, if there is that thing X that you absolutely need or get picked on, then you'll at least have the hard cores chasing the carrot.
90 Worgen Druid
17805
10/05/2012 07:11 PMPosted by Crithto
One of the most asked questions so far is, what gives with the tabard changes? When we introduced reputation tabards in The Burning Crusade, they were set to be used as a means to gain attunement for raiding. Sadly, the specificity of each tabard made it so they discouraged players from running dungeons together. If one player needed reputation from one dungeon, while his friend needed it for another, the two ended up not playing together when they would have liked to. You saw the shift away from this philosophy during Wrath of the Lich King and on into Cataclysm. For Mists of Pandaria, though, we feel dungeons are already rewarding so it made the most sense to have reputation earned by doing things for each particular faction. The various factions are what really bring a lot of the flavor and character to the world of Pandaria. We weren’t very happy that the status quo in Cataclysm was to virtually ignore most factions and what they’re about, by instead doing the fairly unrelated task of running dungeons. It provided a way for players to essentially double dip on rewards from dungeons and faction reputations simply by putting on a shirt when queuing. In Mists we’ve changed the reward structure in a way that we feel makes for a better, more diverse gameplay experience.


But, I don't need anything from dungeons. I just need rep. And being required to log in every day to do them is not fun. Couldn't you make it so you can't roll on gear and just get rep instead?
96 Undead Monk
6670
In Mists we’ve changed the reward structure in a way that we feel makes for a better, more diverse gameplay experience.


It is not a diverse gameplay experience. Diverse means choice.


Going to have to agree with this.

At the very least, if you are going to force dailies as the only means to gain rep, remove the VP gear from rep. I don't want to play your (boring) single player game. I want to play your (excellent) multiplayer game.
1 Gnome Rogue
0
I don't want to play your (boring) single player game. I want to play your (excellent) multiplayer game.

Well said. You don't need to make the dailies easier or faster. You need to divorce them from the path to raiding.
100 Blood Elf Hunter
12840
It's about damn time.
90 Tauren Paladin
0
To be honest I am not sure if this system will encourage me in getting my rep up on my other characters. The grind is currently so awful that I don't consider it worth it doing for any character but my main. Even with the suggested bonus I still wouldn't spend any time on it.
100 Tauren Druid
12300
While this may have been posted earlier, 27 pages is a lot to read through, so I'll just ask: What about reps that require Cata/WotLK instances? For example, there are two dailies for Ramkahen and the tabard only works in 85 instances. While I love the changes that are coming, I'd like to know if there will be some changes for those old reputations (more dailies, those tabards work on 90 instances, etc.).

Thanks again for all the changes and work you guys do, it's awesome. =D Can't wait for these changes.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9305
Out of the box thinking...

So I understand your point about granting rep gains by throwing on a shirt and jumping into a random dungeon that may be totally unrelated to the faction you're attempting to gain rep with. However, instead of reverting back to the cookie cutter "kill 20 red names" or "gather 18 item uselesses", why can't we think outside the box and come up with alternate, more interesting solutions?

This one took me about 5 minutes... Introduce a dungeon type dungeon where you kill bosses but at the same time, you can optionally clearing trash and free random numbers of random NPCs representing random factions, thus gaining you rep with those faction by rescuing their members. Seems pretty logical and not too out of the scope of possibilities.

Steam Vaults comes to mind where there are all those yellow named workers who are freed as you kill their naga slavers. I don't recall if you gained any rep from rescuing them... I don't think so.
90 Goblin Death Knight
6265
Just chiming in here to say that not everyone thinks the dailies are boring, blah blah blah. I, for one, quite like them.

Now I completely understand the frustration with the fact that rep gear is gated behind one faction (the Klaxxi excluded); and I think it makes no sense that we quest to nearly Honored with the Shado-Pan and yet we're not allowed access to their dailies until we to Revered with Golden Lotus (who came up with that scheme?).

But I don't think the statement that the dailies themselves are boring should be considered something that all players consider fact. This is anecdotal, of course, but on my server, even the daily hubs of the more obscure (and absolutely optional) factions like the Anglers are seeing a lot of action, and I don't play on a high-pop realm. Clearly some people like the dailies well enough.
100 Human Mage
13470
I'd love the idea of making dailies give the gear that dungeons do since people want the seperation of dungeons and dailies. However if you make it so dailies got gear at the same rate as dungeons the QQ would be huge.

I like the current system, makes me go out into the world again and can't just lolfarmdungeons for rep.
96 Undead Monk
6670
10/05/2012 09:05 PMPosted by Weebliz
Just chiming in here to say that not everyone thinks the dailies are boring, blah blah blah. I, for one, quite like them.


Which is fine. And I absolutely think they should have plenty of dailies for people who like dailies. I just don't want them to be the *only* way to get to most of the VP gear.
10/05/2012 09:05 PMPosted by Weebliz
Clearly some people like the dailies well enough.


I like dailies. Some more than others (loved Molten Front, hope to never see Tol Barad again). The issue is that one of the reasons I've traditionally enjoyed dailies was that they were a relatively optional mode of play -- something I could work through in my spare time and not stress about. I've also had the option of which dailies to do on which toon. I enjoyed the Molten Front a lot on this toon, but if I'd have to complete it on all four 85s, I'd have rapidly grown to despise it.

My objection is that they've tied dailies to a central means of character progression, and I now feel obligated to complete all dailies for every faction every day on every alt. That level of obligation and repitition sucks the fun out of them. Yes, I can choose not to do the dailies, but then I'm effectively opting out of valor points as a system, and I don't think anyone really wants to do that or views "rep or no valor" as a compelling gameplay choice.
90 Undead Priest
11215
10/05/2012 07:11 PMPosted by Crithto
For Mists of Pandaria, though, we feel dungeons are already rewarding so it made the most sense to have reputation earned by doing things for each particular faction


In what way are they rewarding? They give you items that are at the bare minimum needed to do LFR, and that's assuming you get all item slots filled. They also offer hardly any JP and an utterly trivial amount of VP, so what exactly is rewarding about these dungeons?

And what's exciting about doing 4 hours of dailies every day for a month? Is that supposed to be fun?

Edit: basically you've made neither of these systems fun or rewarding. Dungeons are now useless after a certain item level and dailies are beyond boring, there's too many of them and they're all mandatory or you completely stunt your character progression.
Edited by Endoslug on 10/5/2012 9:50 PM PDT
90 Human Paladin
6060
10/05/2012 09:46 PMPosted by Endoslug
For Mists of Pandaria, though, we feel dungeons are already rewarding so it made the most sense to have reputation earned by doing things for each particular faction


In what way are they rewarding? They give you items that are at the bare minimum needed to do LFR, and that's assuming you get all item slots filled. They also offer hardly any JP and an utterly trivial amount of VP, so what exactly is rewarding about these dungeons?

And what's exciting about doing 4 hours of dailies every day for a month? Is that supposed to be fun?

Edit: basically you've made neither of these systems fun or rewarding. Dungeons are now useless after a certain item level and dailies are beyond boring, there's too many of them and they're all mandatory or you completely stunt your character progression.


^This
90 Night Elf Warrior
15535
My biggest complaint is the absolute pathetic amount of rep you get per quest. 130 rep? It needs to be 550 per at least then it would feel like I am making some progress. The bar inches soooo slowly that it gets frustrating especially when its 2-3 hours to do them all.
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